Mellor on TVAM

[James Varcoe]

Did anyone else see him making a complete arse of himself this morning?

I am delighted to report that the normally equally apalling Nina Myscof shouted him down callingh him jingoistic and zenaphoibic.

His assertion that the crowd troubles were purely down to the Turks was a continuation of his racist outpourings in The Standard.

Probably his finest moment though was his statement that none of this would have happened if UEFA had done the right thing and banned Turkey from all competition after the Leeds game. Five minutes later when asked to comment on the possibility of a ban for english clubs following the trouble last night he said that this would be an appalling thing for UEFA to do as such a ban would be punishing the whole for the misdeeds of a few.

What a to**er.

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Fit, for my age.

[PeterH]

Its like Eurovision they are not part of Europe (irrelevant but: when were Israel ever part of Europe - I suppose its because their immediate neighbours won't play with them). Their uncivilised ways, their treatment of kurds etc. etc.. They have always dislike the Brits (and prob. for quite good historical raesons) and dislike us even more for not giving them access to the golden chalice of the EC they are so desperate for.

If it was just this seasons incidents you can look back at the years of trouble English hollies caused and the scale of the incident that caused the ban and say the club shouldn't suffer. However Galatasaray
have been disgraceful for years, I suspect Mellor remembers the Man U fans contacting his show with the dreadful stories years ago. Remember Sansampoor 'Welcome to Hell'.
This kind of intimidatory atmo, banners etc. should be banned, at least within grounds (it is over here). UEFA are then within their rights to take action against clubs for ensuring a peaceful atmo. within the ground. I beleive the Turkish side merit a warning for future conduct.

As for EURO 2000, god help us. Turkey v Italy with some other hoolies along for the ride?

[lightweight]

On the Euro 2000 front - I understand the turkey v belgium game is expected to have trouble.

With any luck England v Portugal and England v Romania should be OK. Not so sure about the German game though (one of the reason's I'm not bothered about not going to that one).

If we think about Euro 96 though - if England fans were really that bad - there should surely have been running battles throughout. I went to all of the England games - and didn't seen any trouble at all - in fact there was more good humour and banter between rival fans (maybe with the exception of the Germany semi) than you often get at club level!!

If the policing is right during Euro 2000 it will help considerably - it is a concern for those of us that are going - and I don't like the fact that I'm almost pleased that I'm not going to the Germany game - but hopefully it will all take place - with a good atmosphere, and we can all enjoy ourselves - shouldn't be too much to ask for a footie match should it??

[Ian of Chatham]

Unfotunately, travelling English fans still get a bad name abroad because no-one is strong enough to stand up to the trouble makers among them in Europe. The Danish police force epitomise this, both for their handling of the situation (were they asleep?) and also for releasing both English and Turkish troublemakers without charge. It's time this stopped. The chances are the trouble at Copenhagen and also the trouble that sadly is definitely going to happen at Euro 2000 is committed by known hooligans who are also neo-nazi thugs. If they get arrested abroad, convict them and jail them, "lose" the key if they have to, that may sound harsh, so what? I certainly wouldn't miss them one bit. Alternatively let England play Sierra Leone in a friendly, lure the English hooligans into a pre-arranged "off" and let the locals kidnap the bloody lot of them, now lets see if anyone would pay the ransom for them.

[This message has been edited by Ian of Chatham (edited 18 May 2000).]

[lightweight]

Didn't see it James, but I have to say (and I HATE agreeing with the pompous git) but he does have a point to an extent. Turkish teams do seem to have a history and reputation for causing trouble (particularly in recent years) - and galatasaray's attitude after the leeds supporters were killed was appalling - the gestures they were still making, not wearing black armbands, no minutes silence etc - you wouldn't find that happening here. Also I get the impression the Uefa would have quite happily banned English fans from the tournament if it had been the other way round. Unfortunately we are a higher profile footballing country at present - and the hooliganism problem of previous years means we still get blamed for most of the trouble that is caused. I suspect quite strongly that whoever the opposition had been against Galatasaray yesterday then there would have been some trouble - probably not to the same extent as I'm not for one minute suggesting that the arsenal fans didn't cause any trouble. However having been in Marseille for france 98 - I can vouch for biased reporting and exaggeration - to indicate that English fans were far worse than they actually were. Also witnessing first hand in the Stade Velodrome that the tunisians were actively throwing items into where the English fans were - without it seemed any provocation.

Anyway - I digress. Mellor is still a complete t*sser!!! No argument there!

[Fat Andy]

have to say I agree, apart from that it wasn't Galatasary that refused the black armbands and minutes silence,that was a UEFA decision which sums it all up really !

and if they think it was bad yesterday just wait for EURO 2000 ! been to the last 2 EURO's but am giving this one a miss.

[Kevin T]

I also have to agree. The Turks should be thrown out of European football the same way we were after Hysel.

[Fester]

Have to agree with Lightweight about the Tuks history of violence. Was speaking to a Moanure fan yesterday who reminded me of the incident a few years back involving Cun*ona and Robson and some over zealous Turkish cops. You can imagine UEFA's reaction if a member of the beloved W Yorks Constabulary had got his hands on Hagi and Sukur after the Leeds game....5 year ban for all English clubs....doubtless depriving Palace of entry to the Champions League in 2003??!! Sh*t, should this be on the about face thread!!

[Oisin]

So all the Arse fans were innocent and all the Turks guilty. Yeah right.

[sombrero]

Originally posted by PeterH on 05-18-2000 01:04 PM

Remember Sansampoor 'Welcome to Hell'.

you bloody do if you were there http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/furious.gif - thank god for extra-strong underpants.......

[le piddler]

Some excellent points there as usual chaps, & I pesonally do think that Euro 20000 will be chaos,particuarly the Germany game if only because the Turks are playing half an hour down the road!!!!!
I'm saying this because after the Walsall game in April we were @ Brum New Street @ the pub in the station and got talking to a local Brummie lad who said that all of the Brum lads were going out there just to have it away with the Turks so I would imagine that will be the game in all the nutters minds!
http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/frown.gif

[James Varcoe]

So once again faced with a cultural chasm that we just can't understand or bridge we can all come down firmly on the side of zenophobic rambling.

[Kevin T]

And I bloody hate prople from Dulwich too. They're all scum. You get them creeping into Warlingham now aswell!!

http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/wink.gif http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/wink.gif http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Matty]

Originally posted by James Varcoe on 05-19-2000 08:32 AM
So once again faced with a cultural chasm that we just can't understand or bridge we can all come down firmly on the side of zenophobic rambling.

Too right, JV (except xenophobic begins with an x!)

Oisin is also spot on.

There have always been an organised few who can cause chaos when English teams go abroad. Euro 96 was a red herring, because the violence that has followed the England team has tended to occur abroad, not in England (vis. Switzerland, Dublin, Marseilles).

Yes, there is a good chance of violence/disorder in Euro 2000. The major players in the violence stakes are represented (England, Holland, Germany, Turkey). But to tar all fans - and there are real fans, just like us, among them is ridiculous. It's down to the actions of a few well organised individuals and their followers. And then there are others who just join in rather than walking away. And while I'm in mid-rant (sorry) what's the difference between Tuesday/Wednesday and the scenes from the City riot last year and to a lesser extent last bank holiday. I bet a large number of the same people were involved.

I actually enjoyed the match on wednesday. The team on the field that deserved to win did win. They got the tactics right (a bit like CPFC at Villa Park 8/4/90) and played the better football. Yes, and Hagi deserved to go off, but so did Adams - two strikes with his elbow that connected only softly, but diving like a sack of potatoes when hit by a soft punch in the back.

Football is all about what happens inside the clubs and on the pitch. I accept that violence related to football events tarnish its image; I further accept that the authorities should help do something about it and the clubs should disown their members who get involved. Nevertheless, if we use this as an excuse to ban the average supporter, or to take away those supporters' hope of following their successful clubs in major competitions we are thinking the same way as Thatcher did in the late 80's.

Let me put it this way. If German and English fans are involved in trouble next month, I'm not going to demand that Ruediger be locked up.

Don't let the average supporter become the scapegoat again for the failure of the proper authorities to maintain civil order, don't forget that the be all and end all of football is a match lasting 90 minutes (and maybe extra time and penalties) on a pitch. That's what brought us all together in the first place.

Sorry to rant so long.

[sombrero]

Originally posted by James Varcoe on 05-19-2000 08:32 AM
So once again faced with a cultural chasm that we just can't understand or bridge we can all come down firmly on the side of zenophobic rambling.


are you on a moral crusade mr. varcoe ??

[eagle mart]

Back to the original point of my thread. Since Eddie Brimson got my goat in the away end I've been trying to find their site. (I don't think they have one) But in my search I found one where his brother posts!! He had to say the following on Mellor

"One quick point though, much as I have to say fair play to Mellor for taking and standing by his stance on Turkey
being lobbed out of football, I was on GMTV with him yesterday and he was briefed before the show on exactly
what he had to say.

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions about that.

KKOOF"

What kkoof stands for heavens knows- but there you go. Are these really Mellors views or is there a X-file conspiracy going on here?

This site also has views on the Copenhagen riots. Yes, there were other clubs out there- No mention of Palace I'm pleased to say. But the general consensus was that Turkish fans "have no idea of the scene" and "took things way too far." There were definately people going out there to cause trouble and as I said yesterday it's going to carry on next month. Neil the Eagle & co watch yourselves.

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When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading.
--Henny Youngman

[Ian of Chatham]

KKOOF = Kick (?) Out of Football perhaps?

Don't know what the second "K" stands for. Kelly as in Graham possibly?

[This message has been edited by Ian of Chatham (edited 19 May 2000).]

[Stellavista]

I'm afraid it takes two to tango...
If you don't want to be involved in the fighting, you just walk away, or you don't head straight for the areas that are the most obvious flashpoints for trouble!
I'm sorry, but the people involved on both sides are scum. When I travel abroad I try to take an interest in the local culture, otherwise why bother to travel?
I do not even attend attend England games at Wembley anymore.
The few times I have been, I have been disgusted with the xenophobic atmosphere and racist drivel I have heard sung and shouted.
These people are sh*t on the shoes of humanity, whichever country they come from.
'In the future everyone will be famous for fifteen punches....'

[This message has been edited by Stellavista (edited 19 May 2000).]

[James Varcoe]

Originally posted by Stellavista on 05-19-2000 02:47 PM
I'm afraid it takes two to tango...
If you don't want to be involved in the fighting, you just walk away, or you don't head straight for the areas that are the most obvious flashpoints for trouble!
I'm sorry, but the people involved on both sides are scum.


[This message has been edited by Stellavista (edited 19 May 2000).]

this is the essence of my arguement. and as such I applaud it.
There is no matter how you choose to look at it 'no smoke without fire'

I am sorry Lightweight et al but justifying another night of English fans behaving like animals by blaming the opposing fans is not an acceptable excuse. Why are we repeatedly the wounded party? Because the game we love is still riddled with facist, ignorant, violent scum.
You guys are all OK and I respect your opinions BUT no one can justify disorder on this scale. 10 troublemakers would never be reported. 10% has and always will be too ready to react.

I am again unfortunately ashamed of my nationality



[This message has been edited by James Varcoe (edited 19 May 2000).]

[eagle mart]

Stella- Fair comments but I remember your views on reclaiming the streets, last year. I still remember mine. Have you mellowed!?!?
It's like a roll reversal?!?!? Surreal!

It does take two to Tango. This is a little grim, but the way I see it is that their intention is to fight with the likeminded. When one group starts flashing knives, then the others will start. The Turkish fans apprently ALL had knives. When one set of fans start carrying them the rest will follow suit.

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When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading.
--Henny Youngman

[Pistike]

[quote]Originally posted by James Varcoe on 05-19-2000 03:55 PM

I am again unfortunately ashamed of my nationality
---------------------------------------------

Just as well me dad Mustafa Varcoe never told him the truth huh?

There was only ever one Turkish milkman in Sanderstead.

[Stellavista]

Originally posted by eagle mart on 05-19-2000 04:31 PM
Stella- Fair comments but I remember your views on reclaiming the streets, last year. I still remember mine. Have you mellowed!?!?
It's like a roll reversal?!?!? Surreal!


Not really, Eagle mart. There's a world of difference between political struggle and plain mindless thuggery!
I don't remember coming out in support of violence in general.
http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Spanish Dan]

Political struggle, my arse. It was just a bunch of soap-dodgers who were out to make a nuisance of themselves and destroy anything in their path. What political point was made by desecrating the cenotaph for example?

[James Varcoe]

Yes

[sombrero]

thats all right then

[Stellavista]

Er, excuse me Dan, but we were talking about the march/mosh in the city, not the events a few weekends ago.
I do not know you. You may well live in a house with a nice lawn and plenty of gadgets, you may have a tidy collection of suits and 'casual' clothing, and may regard it as politically responsible to pay your taxes and vote for any muppet that is on the ballot sheet, but others do not share your particular aspirations and 'lifestyle', and choose to use direct action to defend issues important (for whatever reason) to them.
I have not defended the actions of a group of home counties sixth-formers (I know, I was there) called piers, Charlotte, Angus and Tamara. What they did, with regard to the cenotaph and Churchill's statue is not justifiable.
I expect an apology written in your own blood on the body of your fat bank manager http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/smile.gif

[lightweight]

Originally posted by Oisin on 05-19-2000 01:01 AM
So all the Arse fans were innocent and all the Turks guilty. Yeah right.

I don't think that anyone was saying that - I certainly wasn't - but would have to add that there were English supporters from other clubs there - and some of them particularly went to 'get their own back' agains the turks for the death of the 2 leeds fans. It's people like that, who go specifically to cause trouble who need to be condemmed not all turks and not all english fans - just a mindless minority.

[Pistike]

Good to see the Hungarians haven't cornered the market in ignorance inspired anti-people who aren't like us hatred.
Anyone who has ever been to Istanbul will readily admit that Turkish people are some of the friendliest and most hospitable you could ever hope to meet.
If you truly believe that UEFA should have banned Galatasary then go and buy a season ticket for Upton Park immediately - you would definetly find yourself amongst friends.

[Pistike]

Which wasn't aimed at you lightweight just generally mouthing off about stuff which takes my fancy, (oh and using the opportunity to revile the scum bags from E.London)

[lightweight]

Originally posted by James Varcoe on 05-19-2000 03:55 PM

I am sorry Lightweight et al but justifying another night of English fans behaving like animals by blaming the opposing fans is not an acceptable excuse. Why are we repeatedly the wounded party? Because the game we love is still riddled with facist, ignorant, violent scum.
You guys are all OK and I respect your opinions BUT no one can justify disorder on this scale. 10 troublemakers would never be reported. 10% has and always will be too ready to react.

I am again unfortunately ashamed of my nationality

[This message has been edited by James Varcoe (edited 19 May 2000).]

James - I wasn't saying at all that the turkish fans were solely to blame - I fully accept that 'it takes two to tango' - my point was that whoever Galatasaray were playing there was bound to be trouble. Why are the persistent rumours of predicted trouble at the turkey v belgium game in euro 2000 which doesn't need to involve any English fans??? Yes there were English fans causing trouble - but probably in a minority.

[Ian of Chatham]

Originally posted by lightweight on 05-20-2000 01:35 AM
- my point was that whoever Galatasaray were playing there was bound to be trouble. Why are the persistent rumours of predicted trouble at the turkey v belgium game in euro 2000 which doesn't need to involve any English fans??? Yes there were English fans causing trouble - but probably in a minority.
Unfortunately the same applies to England, whenever they play abroad there is likely to be trouble.

As for the rumours of trouble at the Turkey vs Belgium game, Just for your information, I had the misfortune of reading the racist insults posted on the Galatasaray web site guest book by so called English fans, in fact also from German, Danish and Swedish fans who all who said they were going to avenge the death of the two Leeds fans who died in Istanbul by getting the Turkish fans in Euro 2000. Draw your own conclusion from the above, but I gather from reading the messages that I don't think they will want to wait until they have to play Turkey before they start trouble out there.

[This message has been edited by Ian of Chatham (edited 20 May 2000).]

[lightweight]

Originally posted by Pistike on 05-19-2000 12:23 PM
Which wasn't aimed at you lightweight

Glad about that - the only time I want to be at Upton Park is when Palace are playing there!

[lightweight]

Originally posted by Ian of Chatham on 05-20-2000 09:42 AM

Unfortunately the same applies to England, whenever they play abroad there is likely to be trouble.

As for the rumours of trouble at the Turkey vs Belgium game, Just for your information, I had the misfortune of reading the racist insults posted on the Galatasaray web site guest book by so called English fans, in fact also from German, Danish and Swedish fans who all who said they were going to avenge the death of the two Leeds fans who died in Istanbul by getting the Turkish fans in Euro 2000. Draw your own conclusion from the above, but I gather from reading the messages that I don't think they will want to wait until they have to play Turkey before they start trouble out there.

[This message has been edited by Ian of Chatham (edited 20 May 2000).]

No point in getting into a 'who started it' argument - but if the turkish supporters were to blame for the death of the 2 leeds fans then somthing should be done about it by the authorities - which might stop some of the people who want to get revenge.

What is important is that the UEFA / police etc take it all into consideration. It doesn't take a genius to work out that there is bound to be trouble in the run up to any of the high profile games involving sides with support that contains a known hooligan element. The policing tends to concentrate far too much solely on the game itself - when in recent years the violence has mostly taken place in town / city centres in the run up to matches.

[Ian of Chatham]

I agree with your latest points lightweight, there's certainly no point in getting into a "who started it" argument, but unfortunately violence at Euro 2000 is a certainty. To all those who are going, enjoy yourselves and be careful out there, I'm just glad I'm not going anywhere near Belgium or Holland during the tournament.

[This message has been edited by Ian of Chatham (edited 22 May 2000).]

[Spanish Dan]

Originally posted by Stellavista on 05-20-2000 12:05 AM

I expect an apology written in your own blood on the body of your fat bank manager http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/smile.gif

Only just read the response as I only use the internet while my capitalist pig employers are paying for it http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/smile.gif I couldn't get hold of my bank manager over the weekend as I was too busy tending my lawn and having a bit of slap and tickle with the au-pair.

Seriously though, I admit that I had misunderstood which protest you were on about, although I still think that direct action has a more of a negative effect on whatever cause you are fighting for.

[eagle mart]

I picked this up from another site in respect of the Media. There is some valid points made.....

"The last few months has published (pardon the pun) two main attributes of the British press and its composition.
Its ability to change its perspective on current affairs and topics has served to bring it down near the level of the
British government, making clear its corruption and unmistaken hypocrisy.
Firstly, only a week prior to the events in Copenhagen did we have to endure a barrage of media interest
regarding the Tony Martin case, through this wave of public opinion the media had no need to ‘make news’ they
gladly trailed along the ‘bandwagon’ of vox populi preaching to the government and judicial system ideals of
individual liberty and the ‘right to protect oneself.’ Fair enough this I agree with, but the inconsistency in the press
only a few weeks later is tedious. How is it when a group of Arsenal fans, taunted and spat at by knife wielding
Turks (baying for the blood of an Englishman,) who then suddenly decide to protect themselves does it become
an example of the ‘English disease.’ Is it not similar to the rights observed by Mr. Martin?
Secondly I can’t believe the sudden change in opinion over football hooliganism in Britain, after the Leeds game
with Gala. The English were victims of cannibals, the next game and the English who are attacked by the same
cannibals are suddenly ‘louts,’ ‘yobs’ or ‘scum.’ From victims we have become as despised as the rioters in
London during the anti-capitalism march. Why is this? Could it be because hooliganism sells papers and because a
certain European competition is about to commence? In either case it is totally unacceptable, the media is
supposed to present the news, pushing public opinion to the government, it has now become fiction manipulating
public opinion. It was interesting to watch the sky coverage of the events in Copenhagen, they seemed to loop the
same clip of that lad who bore a striking resemblance to Alan Shearer in a blue shirt, and of a guy tapping a Turk
with a metal bar (zooming in on his face as he looks around, trying to present him as a right evil *******) After a
while it became quite tedious. The best bit was when the camera crew got chased back in their van saying ‘and
they even turned on us…’ Of coarse they did you ******s you were the pricks no doubt paying the Turks to stab
people."

[James Varcoe]

Heavy stuff here but our inability to take perceived slights on our 'nation' is the real problem here.
There is a large proportion of the English population who look upon any provocation from foreigners as an opportunity to reestablish the Empire.
I know this is an over simplification of the circumstances but Mellor himself is no better than the scum who were unable to walk away from last weeks perceived insults.
To go back three generations to the time of Imperialist expansion then Mellor is reminisant of our foreign minister and the bloody hunting scummers the troops sent in to claim parts of foreign lands as British.
Why we are unable to accept that others have just as much right to exist in their own traditions is beyond me.
I am not justifing the appalling behaviour of some Turks here but to reverse statements from both Mellor and Lightweight, the Turks have played many, many games in Europe this season (more than Leeds) and yet the common denomonator in both the instances of trouble was English teams.
Don't for a minute think that we are the good guys. We are the guys on remand for car theft who just couldn't resist it when we saw the unlocked vehicle with the keys in the ignition.

[ruediger]

Originally posted by Matty on 05-19-2000 10:17 AM
Let me put it this way. If German and English fans are involved in trouble next month, I'm not going to demand that Ruediger be locked up.

Not a bad idea though as I'm always causing trouble at home when England and Germany clash. My wife, my son and my daughter naturally support Germany while I - for some wierd reasons - can't hide my affection for the 3 Lions.
We do have "crowd seggregation" in front of the TV-set for obvious reasons but when it comes to penalties a riot is very much on the cards.
Sorry, normally I'm a well-behaved person but then .....


[This message has been edited by ruediger (edited 22 May 2000).]

[eagle mart]

Originally posted by Ian of Chatham on 05-22-2000 01:02 AM
I'm just glad I'm not going anywhere near Belgium or Holland during the tournament.



Thats what I said on thursday. I found out on ssaturday i'm going. DOH!!!!

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When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading.
--Henny Youngman