Bugger Off Mikael (old and confusing thread about Forssell)

[lightweight]

ok - so forsell had a bad game tonight - still don't think he looked as lazy as clinton did on Sunday.

I'm not sure that the "we must play him" clause is in this loan spell - rumours suggested it was in last season's - I doubt a year long loan would include that. (hope not anyhow)

He controls the ball well most of the time - but he's still only 19 and learning. Personally I think he's a good, enthusiastic player - my only problem with him is that i hope doesn't get too much preference over other strikers like Clinton etc when he's only here on a year's loan - and others should by rights be here for longer (and already have)

[CPFCkidGeneric]

Couldn't agree with you more, Forsell Sucks bigtime and we should offload him, before it's too late. I absolutley Hate Forsell...

[Ian of Chatham]

Originally posted by Brett:


And tell me how Forssell-lovers we ever look like scoring whilst this lazy ponce is on the pitch??


Well we did score two while he was on the pitch tonight, Brett.

To anyone who hates Forssell and tells him to b'ger off, who do you suggest should we replace him with who can win 80-20 balls and kick lumps out of defenders and anything else that moves?

[Brett]

Goal One - outstanding individual work from Black and Morrison; no time for Forssell to fork it up.

Goal Two - Ruddock header from corner.

Forssell argument about being on the pitch when two goals went in falls down dead.

See the second half? Powder puff forward line??

Eagle - Forssell was sh!t sunday too, and for most of the end of last season. Not being judged on one game at all.

He has been judged on his performances since signing. OK you all hid behind the 'coming back from injury' line last season...so whats the excuse for his brown pants this season?

[Brett]

Originally posted by Ian of Chatham:
To anyone who hates Forssell and tells him to b'ger off, who do you suggest should we replace him with who can win 80-20 balls and kick lumps out of defenders and anything else that moves?

Not kick lumps out of defenders Ian. Win balls that are hilariously in our favour? YES.
Chase the ball? YES.
Dont run away from it to save being tackled? YES.
Not sh!t himself at the first sign of physical contact no matter how scant? YES.

In the squad we have Martin (When he returns from injury); I have said before this lad's a human battering ram, and someone who can give Clinon (by far our best striker) a platform to play off.

We also have McKenzie, although of dubious ability, at least has the bonus of giving a toss about the cause.

Personally, I would rather have Aylott, Gabbiadini, Taylor et al than Forssell. He is remarkably talented, skill wise. But he just doesnt give a toss, cant be bothered, and bottles EVERYTHING.

No wonder Vialli wont play him. If he was so good why wasnt there any other takers apart from us and the 'desperately need a striker Charlton'?

[Neil MacQueen]

Ohll boB!

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Oh look its Nelson Quiche' The Spanish U21 International.

[Ian of Chatham]

Originally posted by Brett:

In the squad we have Martin (When he returns from injury); I have said before this lad's a human battering ram, and someone who can give Clinon (by far our best striker) a platform to play off.

Personally, I would rather have Aylott, Gabbiadini, Taylor et al than Forssell. He is remarkably talented, skill wise. But he just doesnt give a toss, cant be bothered, and bottles EVERYTHING.

As for my last post Brett, I was just answering your question about how we were going to score while he was on the pitch, I didn't say anything about him scoring or setting up any goals!!!

I'm not sure about Martin to be honest, but in the games I saw him play last season, like Charlton away when he scored we weren't exactly blessed with attacking options. Like Forssell he's young and I don't expect miracles.

I know Forssell did not have a good game tonight but there is no way I would rather have that useless Gareth Failure instead of him.

[Brett]

For the benefit of giving a guy a fair crack of the whip, I took tonights match with Cardiff as an oppurtunity to analyse properly, Mikael Forssell.

My conclusion is - I was right - he is crap.

In no doubt can we say Forssell has no talent. He is very talented. He can keep the ball up constantly before the game and can make a 'couple' of decent spins during it when he can be bothered.
That is it though 'when he can be bothered'.

He is a bottler, shies away from tackles, and makes no attempt to create space or chase lost causes.

Eagle, Laurie - You can shove you flash little tricks up your backsides. I EXPECT my forwards to be winning balls that are 80-20 in their favour.

Dont give me any crap about service either. He had the ball into feet tonight, into the chest and balls to run onto. The feet he stayed still and let the defender have.
The chest he went with his feet half heartedly, allowing the defender easy retrieval of the ball. And the ball over the top was a waste cos he is a lazy barsteward.

If it is true that he has a clause in his contract allowing him to be picked, then Jordan should be shot for allowing it.

Forssell is crap - admit it. How many attacks petered out when the ball went in his direction?

And tell me how Forssell-lovers we ever look like scoring whilst this lazy ponce is on the pitch??

---------------------------------------------

And why the fork dont we pass to Tommy Black?? He is excellent.

[Eagle]

Being a Forssell fan i will be the first to admit i thought he was very poor tonight but you can't judge a player on one game.
Yes he had a bad game tonight but who's to say he won't go and have a blinder on saturday, every player has an off game.
You'll probably think i'm defending him and i probably am but i would be very surprised if we are still saying this at the end of the season.
We are only 3 games into the season and the team are beginning to gel but it will take time, something which we need to give to Forssell as all the new players.
But to be fair we were pretty poor tonight especially in the second half.

[wedgetail]

There is no point in saying that Forsell's defects are due to lack of age and experience, because we will not gain from any improvement he makes, Chelsea will gain. Palace are paying him to learn his trade for Chelsea's benefit. But let's not be rude, can we say politely, please go back across the river.

[BIG LETTER!]

Originally posted by Brett:
See the second half? Powder puff forward line??


See the second half? Powder puff TEAM?? Why not have a go at the rest of them aswell, they were all pretty dire. I don't like Forssell because he comes from Chelsea, but I honestly believe he will be a good player for us this season. That ain't going to happen though if he's got the crowd on his back. He isn't helped by the fact that hes got to play with Morrison, and if we could only sign somebody who will offer him a bit more support he'll definately come good. The only thing is, I agree with the person who said that we mustn't necessarily give him priority because although he is obviously the best striker at the club by a huge distance, he's only here for a year. The truth is we need to sign two new strikers.

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- Yay! -

[lightweight]

As I said before he didn't have the best of games last night - but Brett - he played well on Sunday (apart from the glaring miss) and certainly looked more 'up for it' and enthusiastic than Clinton did. To be frank I think Clinton would play better with another striker - but should we be revolving everything around Clinton?? in a word no, however we certainly shouldn't be working things round for Forssell as he's only here for one year. I honestly don't think we've seen the best of him yet - flashes of good stuff in a few games show his potential - I'm happy to wait and see for a few games rather than jump on his back now.

[Men At Work]

Based on previous appearances (and especially Sunady and last night) it is obvious that Forssell will do better in the Premiership than in the very physical Division 1. Where he does give us good options is in attracting defenders to him. When he gets the ball he usually has at least two other players on him which, as in last night, leads to a few free kicks in dangerous areas. To really get a benefit from what he is doing at the moment two things need to happen. First, he needs to learn to play the simple pass after doing all the hard work. Second, we need someone to come through from midfield to give him options after holding up the ball. Usually he's forced to try and turn the players instead of a simple pass and move.

Sunday he was better because the long balls and headers were knocked into his feet. Last night they came around chest height.

[Fat Andy]

So if overrall I'm reading correctly then :
Gregg - cr*p distribution
Harrison - slow
Ruddock - overweight
Mullins - lazy
Pollock - no skill
Morrison - no interest
Fullarton - rubbish
Forsell - cr*p

Premiership here we come ! It's a team game and if someone isn't pulling their weight then I'd like to think that Smith will sort it out.

Forsell is the only option, Leon's scoring record is poor and there's no other strikers.

[Adrian]

Forssell is a lightweight, of that there's no doubt, and, IMO, he is a long way from proving himself as a top quality striker. He does appear to lack bottle/commitment and also appears less than enthusiastic much of the time. His decision-making when it comes to pass-or-shoot is seriously dodgy and the miss on Sunday was, frankly, inexcusable. It's schoolboy stuff: you look DOWN, hit the ball with the laces/instep and it's then danm near impossible for it to go skywards

However, the lad's very young, has not had particularly good service from midfield and, along with others in the side, is playing with colleagues who barely know each other in many cases.

I say we should keep him in the side for now and wait and see.

But TAK's absolutely right: players must be hungry - there can be no room for those just along for the ride. The difference with Gray and Black is immediately obvious: they come from a discipline where NOTHING is good enough but the best. It is engrained in them to aim for perfection in everything they do.

That way lies long-term success.

[eagle mart]

The worst player on the pitch, by a mile, was Carlisle. He will not make it in the game. I can't see a strong area of his game.
Forssell will make it- hes already an International and is only 19 years old for christs sake. I agree he needs to get down the gym a bit. Remember Ndah? Look at him now hes filled out. I wouldn't mind him (without the broken leg) at the moment.

[CPFC Cheerleader Observer]

I have to agree that Wayne was the most ineffective player for us both last night and on Sunday. When he plays well, he is pretty good, but it just takes him too many games to get to playing well.

And as for Forssell. He did do some real good touches both on Sunday and last night but that's it. He doesn't get in there like Clinton does and seems to rather do the one touch lay off thing too many times rather than try and run at em and shoot.

It would be interesting to see what he would have done given the chance that Morrison had for the first goal last night. Bet he wouldn't have done what Clinton did.

I hope he can find some real form and start scoring as much as he does one touch the ball to someone else.

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"Things, can only get better....."

[Blarm]

Forsell played about 10 games for us last season and was cr*p and 3 games this season an is no better. In those 3 games this season he has missed 2 completely simple goals (Blackburn and QPR) and got in the way to have a goal deflected off his chest. The man is a complete waste of space and at 19, if he hasn't gone beyond the typical 11 year style of selfish football, then he's never going to.

How many more games does he deserve to be given a chance for. Send him back to Chelsea NOW.

[players bar]

Men at work, you jump at every chance you get to knock Andrew Martin.How many time's have you seen him play.He played out of position most of his game's last season,scoring 2 when playing as a striker.Mark my words the next Mark Huges.

[Men At Work]

I have been critical of Martin as I have of any player who I feel puts in a poor performance. However, I also give credit where it's due and try not to fall into the 'everything player X does is good/bad' which quite a few others do. I hope Martin does turn into the next Mark Hughes and will cheer loudly if he does but from what I have seen so far I don't hold any great hopes for it. However, I will be delighted to be proven wrong.

BTW, I've been critical of Martin twice in my match reports and possibly twice in my 500+ postings. Nice to know someone takes note of what I say http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Palace match reports at http://www.mistfall.clara.net/football.html

[Eagle]

I will be the first to hold my hands up and say yes i was wrong about Forssell being a good signing if he doesn't improve but i'm certain he will.
I thought he done ok at Blackburn, was better against QPR but he was poor last night.
Although it wouldn't surprise me one bit if by Christmas we are all singing "Super Mik".
I still say he'll be in double figures for goals this season.

[Laurie]

From Brett

Personally, I would rather have Aylott, Gabbiadini, Taylor et al than Forssell. [/B]

Sad, sad, sad, sad, sad....and you would rather watch Watford in their heyday than AC or Ajax in theirs.



[This message has been edited by Laurie (edited 24 August 2000).]

[Daddy Long]

The problem is that Forssell is ****e in the air and over 50% of the balls are going over his head. That is why we must play Leon. He is better than Forssell and Clinton in the air and could play some nice little flick ons for Clinton and others. I don't mind if he doesn't score many so long as he's setting them up for someone else on a regular basis. Forssell should be on the bench to be bought on when Clinton gets knackered/bored. Leon McKenzie atleast runs non-stop and gives the midfielders more options going forward.

[Brett]

Originally posted by Laurie:
Sad, sad, sad, sad, sad....and you would rather watch Watford in their heyday than AC or Ajax in theirs.

[This message has been edited by Laurie (edited 24 August 2000).]

In reply - I support Palace not to watch pretty football but because I am hopelessly addicted. Otherwise I wouldnt trek all over tyhe land to watch them.

I am indeed a very keen conniseur of the Ajax sides (not the current one), and I am also a student of the tactical game as well as being steeped in the ways of 'De Toekomst' Ajax school of soccer.

I am suggesting we need players more commited than Forssell. Now we know why Chelsea lose to Bradford if they all have the bollox of Forssell.

As for Anti - couldnt think of anything more intelligent to say, it was becoming a decent discussion, we dont need crappy comments thanx.

[PeterH]

I get the feeling Forsell is biding is time at Palace. I like other posters would have more time for him if he just executed the simple pass. Yes, we all want to see skilfull play but he consistently just runs into a block of three or four players when he cah tap the ball left or right ten yards. He done this last night and it was extremely frustrating. I think he should be given six or seven other games to prove he is an asset to the team, not necessarily score but be a team player and show commitment. Otherwise we will be having this argument until the end of the season.

To put it in context at the moment he his not a patch on Jansen.

Not overly enamoured with Carlisle so far this season.

On the positive side what an acquisition
Black could be. If the likes of him and Ashley Cole are coming out of the Arsenal acadamy are we producing players of the same quality and if not why not?

[winners]

IMHO Forsell actually played very well at the end of last season, and i was quite looking forward to seeing him this!, he has dissapointed so far, but im sure it will come good!

As for Carlisle, I think a little spell on the bench would suffice, with maybe Gray given a spell to show us what he can do!

[Pistike]

All he needs is a bit more experience. Can't we lend him to Peterboro for a couple of months?

[Basingstoke Eagle]

Personally i dont think Forsell & Clinton make the ideal combination,they are both very similar.Neither of them is very good in the air,both get their heads down & try to beat every player twice & they are both very young & inexperienced.We really do need a big target man because like last night when teams close us down we go to route one & lose every high ball to the big center halves.As for Carlisle there seems to be no in between for him,he's either very good or plain awful,but like Harrison im not sure that the roles they've been given by Smith suit them.

[julian]

from what i've seen of forsell i've been pretty impressed. he's not the sort of player that battles for possession > and this is no reason for saying he's crap! most english players battle for the ball but once they've got it treat it like a hot potato. forsell is strong for his age and quite skilful and is able to hold the ball and use the ball far better than morrisson.

[Brett]

Originally posted by julian:
forsell is strong for his age and quite skilful and is able to hold the ball and use the ball far better than morrisson.

Strong?
Hold the ball?
Use better than Clint?

No, knocked off easily.
No, sh!ts pants with defender up arse.
No, doesnt have Morrisons goalscoring record, both in and out of the box.

[rashid]

Originally posted by Pistike:
All he needs is a bit more experience. Can't we lend him to Peterboro for a couple of months?

he will score loads at Peterborough, and then promptly dry up when he returns! http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/wink.gif
er, can you sublet players?

[Pistike]

Originally posted by Brett:
No, knocked off easily.
No, sh!ts pants with defender up arse.
No, doesnt have Morrisons goalscoring record, both in and out of the box.[/B]

Brett would you allow me to concoct a rather long footballing metaphor to describe the style of your critical prose writing:

To me your writing is like Andy Higinbottom wearing a bar of soap tied to each foot, standing in a centre circle paved with exceptionally shiny ceramic bathroom tiles whilst attempting to control a shaved gerbil liberally covered in baby oil with his left foot.

[This message has been edited by Pistike (edited 24 August 2000).]

[Palace Eagle]

You're all ******* ***** that think Forsell is good! He does have one good point however, he makes the grass grown and keeps it green. He's been **** since he arrived and must have a contract thats says "Whilst on loan, he starts all games and cannot be subbed until the games reaches the hour mark or something. I think Razor should 'BREAK HIS LEGS'. Eagle, you're talking out of your Arse mate, sorry geeze.

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I'm Palace til i die, I'm Palace til i die, WOO HOO!!!

[Matt_Hep]

What a load of rubbish I must say! (This thread not Forsell!!!). Forsell is the most skilful player we've got, he's extremely talented and will be great for us this seaason IF we stop hitting the ball to his head, he's a skilful player who needs the ball to his feet even a mug could work that one out!!! We haven't had a player who runs at defenders like he does for a while.

Overall I think Smith has introduced quite a nice style of passing football.

[Eagle]

Originally posted by Brett:
Strong?
Hold the ball?
Use better than Clint?

No, knocked off easily.
No, sh!ts pants with defender up arse.
No, doesnt have Morrisons goalscoring record, both in and out of the box.

Sorry mate, i don't agree and i don't think we ever will on our thought's of Forssell!!
Take the QPR game for example, in just the 6th minute he battled for the ball, won it, went past 4 challenges and still no-one could tackle him because of his trickery and his shot would have troubled the keeper but it got deflected.
I feel he does hold the ball up well when he gets it and against QPR created space for himself and Morrsion.
I do agree, obviously Morrsion's goal scoring record is better than Mikael's because this is Forssell's first time playing in the first team but Forssell's goal record in the reserves at Chelsea was good.
We will never agree on Forssell mate but we al have opinions but trust me he'll come good.

[Vinny]

For what it's worth I reckon Forsell's a good boy. He's young and talented. (I reckon some people forget how young and inexperienced he is) I'd say he's the most talented we have right now. The news that Morrisson had signed a new deal made me shudder. Too much attitude, too laid back, too much "I've made it!". On Sunday I thought he was crap. Slow is not the word. He needed to wake up (again!). In the right situation and on his day Clinton is great. Unfortunatley I feel his day is a Thursday and we play mostly at weekends. At Blackburn Forrsell was our only threat. Like it was said previously (by someone who's name I forget, Sorry!) MF needs it to feet. We all know he's not great in the air, and I'm sure he knows it himself, but you've got to ask why people keep giving it to him high. If supporters can see that he needs it to feet why can't other people?. You can deffinately put me down as an MF fan. Take him out and who would you put in his place? Please don't say Leon. He's a nice guy, but I don't think he's got what it takes in the 1st division. Let him go. Please!.
All you doubters remember - He's on loan. It could be worse!
Ain't it good to be back to talking about proper footballing matters!
I love you all!

[Brett]

Originally posted by Eagle:

Take the QPR game for example, in just the 6th minute he battled for the ball, won it, went past 4 challenges and still no-one could tackle him because of his trickery and his shot would have troubled the keeper but it got deflected.

There was me thinking the defender fell over, ball popped up into Forssell's run and he went past a couple of QPR who just fell over whilst the grass cutting shot of his would have only trouble the corner flag.

Funny how we see things differently.

[Brett]

Originally posted by Matt_Hep:
What a load of rubbish I must say! (This thread not Forsell!!!). Forsell is the most skilful player we've got, he's extremely talented and will be great for us this seaason IF we stop hitting the ball to his head, he's a skilful player who needs the ball to his feet even a mug could work that one out!!! We haven't had a player who runs at defenders like he does for a while.

Overall I think Smith has introduced quite a nice style of passing football.

He would also be brilliant if we could ask nicely the opposition defence to step away from him controlling the ball; he doesnt take kindly to having his shirt lightly rubbed, or god forbid even tackled. Nope he wont play if the defence insist on making his life difficult. Bad boys that these defenders are; bounders, the lot of them.

Stand up Forssell, you are obviously Maradona's older brother, and that Pele bloke, not fit to tie your bootlaces...

[Brett]

Originally posted by Pistike:
To me your writing is like Andy Higinbottom wearing a bar of soap tied to each foot, standing in a centre circle paved with exceptionally shiny ceramic bathroom tiles whilst attempting to control a shaved gerbil liberally covered in baby oil with his left foot.

I always found that it was better to be straight down the middle.

Poncing about being flash with words gets you know where.

A few nice one liners here and there, maybe even a catchphrase, but you never get an end product.

Whoops! Bit like Mikael Forssell, just a thought.

[Stellavista]

Have to say you're overeacting a bit, Brett!
MF is inexperienced, but a growing talent.
Are we so rich on the ground in strikers, that you feel we can afford to discard one?

I think that we do need a big target man, who either Clinton or Mikael can play off of. Together they do not really work.
I am amazed that Matt Hep and I actually agree on something!

[ajp]

I hate critisising players but Forsell I'm afraid is going to get some. When he trys he's skillful, he's quick and would look great brought on as a sub with the experianced stars of a club like ch@lsea.

But Mikael is inexperianced, on loan from the scum, very lightweight and cannot finish. Smith said after Blackburn that although he missed a chance there, he'd put it away next time and then said the same thing again after the QPR glaring miss. Forsell was also guilty of bad misses in front of goal last season.


Maybe Forsell is very skillful but he's not right at this club or in this league!

[This message has been edited by ajp (edited 25 August 2000).]

[Eagle]

This thread is great.
A great footballing debate which is something we missed for a long time.
At the end of the day we all have different opinions and some people are going to be proved wrong.

[anti-addick]

Stop talking cr@p Brett.

[brighton_eagle]

Well, when you put it like that Fat Andy.....

I have to say that I didn't think Forsell looked any worse than the rest of team in the second half. They were generally crap. I couldn't believe it when I looked at the clock and realised that for virtually half an hour we hadn't touched the ball...at least not in any meaningful way.

The question should be....why oh why can we not play for minutes, instead of 45. This was a problem last season and it still is, from what I have seen so far.

I still think Forsell will do ok for us, but we do need another striker....one capable of scoring a good few goals, so that we don't have to rely on him.

Do all these people want to see the back of him because he is Chelsea??
http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Mellor = fat tosser

[TAK]

Last night he didn't win a single ball in the air, shyed away from any tackles, jogged round the pitch like it was a Sunday afternoon and when he got the ball hung onto it, whilst trying to score the goal of the century rather than simply pass it to some one better positioned (usually Clinton).

He could be superb if he was more commited but he sees his future elsewhere and therefore is not going to be motivated enough to put it on the line for Palace.

We need people who are hungry!

[Men At Work]

Originally posted by Brett:
In the squad we have Martin (When he returns from injury); I have said before this lad's a human battering ram

I've heard him called many things before but nothing that approaches that. Perhaps you're confusing him with someomne else?

[Tony Humphreys]

I don't think anyone's disputing that Forssell's got skill, it's more his application, determination, etc which we doubters would criticise. Sure he always does a couple of clever dribbles early on, which usually end up without result, but then defenders get him in their pockets too readily. Against QPR, Ready simply stepped in and knocked the ball away from him every time. Against Cardiff's Third Division defenders, he got nowhere either. For someone who is pretty solidly built, he is dispossessed far too easily. As for pace, how often has he left defenders trailing in his wake? He's here (presumably) for the season, so I shall continue to hope that he proves me wrong.

As for criticising Clinton, he may have "attitude" but he's also our most likely source of goals. Having been our top scorer for the past two seasons (not exactly the most favourable seasons for a youngster to come into the first team), he strikes me as being rather more worth persisting with than the not-so-Flying Finn.

Still, as the last correspondent said, isn't it great to be arguing about football again. Mind you, I do miss those nice long legal explanations that James used to provide.......

[TAK]

I'll make a prediction here,

Forsell goes through the whole season without gaining a yellow card, not because he's such a clean player but because he doesn't ever get stuck in or passionate enough to get carried away even slightly.

[Fat Andy]

I still rate Forsell, but even if I didn't what other options are there, do you give Leon a millionth chance to see if he can score ?

and even the most anti-Forsell surely would prefer him to Martin !

[Dillenger]

I can't understand where all this is coming from. Forsell's still only 19 for fecks sake!! He's playing in a side who barely know each other, are inexperienced and under new management.

The boy's got class, and just cos he isn't some 'bustling english centre forward' he's getting slated.

All this talk of 'we need a target man' is a bit cheesy too. France don't use a target man, they have two runners, both comfartable with the ball and plaenty of technique. Wait a minute, Clinton and Forsell; comfortable with the ball and plenty of technique. What a revelation!!

We've got two young, skillfull and goalscoring strikers and that's still not good enough for some.

For f*cks sake, we could have been playing at gillingham with Andrew Martin (oh behave!) and Stephen Hunt up front, while Mullins and Morrison warm the bench at Charlton, cos Lim wants the cash for another bowling alley.

[PeterH]

Originally posted by winners:


As for Carlisle, I think a little spell on the bench would suffice, with maybe Gray given a spell to show us what he can do!

I thought at Wycombe Gray showed some promise as a winger and we should continue down the route of playing players in their suitable positions.

[brighton_eagle]

Dillenger, France may not have a target man as such, but comparing our team to the French national side that have now won a world cup and a european championships isn't gonna wash. They do have one of the best players in the world in midfield, and alter their tactics were needed to include two 'flying' wingers who are capable of taking players on and putting in decent crosses. I think, in the first division, that a 'target man' IS useful, particularly if we are gonna continue to play a hoof and hope style.

I agree though, that Forsell has got potential, but all I'm saying is that we need some alternatives to help us break down some of the first division defences. A big strong player who can put himself about and get stuck in, like Bradbury or Svensson did last season, would be invaluable.

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Mellor = fat tosser

[Dillenger]

Fair enough, but we may as well at least try to aspire to play like the best, otherwise what's the point?

To be fair to Smith, I don't think we are, or will in the future, be playing the hoof'n'chase game. It's dated, and can only get you so far.

In the press, Smith was saying how much he admired the French managment style (Wenger, Houllier, Tigana, etc), well in that case I presume he wont be wanting a big bruiser up front and a load of cloggers in midfield. On second thoughts...

I think you have to make concessions at this level, ie having a few battlers, and some aging pro's, but in the long term you've got to move forward.

[Dillenger]

Fair enough, but we may as well at least try to aspire to play like the best, otherwise what's the point?

To be fair to Smith, I don't think we are, or will in the future, be playing the hoof'n'chase game. It's dated, and can only get you so far.

In the press, Smith was saying how much he admired the French managment style (Wenger, Houllier, Tigana, etc), well in that case I presume he wont be wanting a big bruiser up front and a load of cloggers in midfield. On second thoughts...

I think you have to make concessions at this level, ie having a few battlers, and some aging pro's, but in the long term you've got to move forward.

[aadams]

We need a Neil Shipperly striker.
One who can hold the ball up & also take a few knocks as well.
Forsell seems to be a striker who can do the tricks, but when the going gets tough he does not want to get stuck in.
He seems a nice guy but we need a hard striker, one who has an attitude

[Burr]

I think Forsell is agood player, but one that still has a lot to learn. He is selfish (but a LOT of strikers are). I like to look at the positive sides of the issue:

He is very skillful and likes to run at players.

With some proper coaching he will be able to use his talent to great effect in this league. He just needs to know when to pass and when to shoot. At the moment he will run past 2 extra players and lose the ball when he would be better off passing or shooting earlier.

He is only 19! Give him a chance, his time will come. Morrison is 21 now remember and Forsell certainly looks better than he did when he was 19.

[wedgetail]

Originally posted by Oxted Eagle:
Why do we insist on slagging off our players. ......
fans are all too fickle.

because he is NOT one of our players. He is a Chelsea player, if we signed him we could work on his game and reap the benefit of his undoubted talent.
We are paying him for his performances NOW not for his potential. If he improves Chelsea will take him back and give us nothing.

[Dillenger]

Yeah, but that's no reason to get on his back though.

I got to admit I find the title of this thread and the tone of some postings (particulary the 1st) a bit much.

is anyone argueing that on paper him and Clint can't get 30-40 goals between them this year ?

Give him a chance for christs sake.

[wedgetail]

Sorry Dillinger, but there is no point giving hinm a chance, if he starts scoring Chelsea will take him back, if he is a flop we will keep paying his wages.
The purpose of a loan player is to cover a short term gap in the team, as we all know at the moment we have a shortage of strikers.
I don't care if he is 19 or 29, as a loan player he has to perform now.

[Dillenger]

I thought we had him on a years loan.

If he starts scoring for fun in November, can Chelsea then recall him, or do we hold his registration till June ?

Either way I still think it was a superb move getting him again, even if it's just that opposition defences concentrate on marking him, leaving more space for others.

[wedgetail]

>If he starts scoring for fun in November, can Chelsea then recall him

yes! That is my point.

[Men At Work]

A sentence with the words "beggars" and "choosers" comes to mind. The effects of the last couple of years will not wash away in one stroke. It will take time to build a good team - less than 40 days since Millwall remember - so if we can take advantage of a loan period for an international player then we should. It is obvious he sometimes plays the wrong ball and can't jump but every player I've ever seen since I've been watching Palace has, at one time or another, done things badly. M & M have had a couple of shockers recently but there are no calls to get rid of them. Is it because they are 'owned' by Palace? I don't think so.

A lot of football is confidence. Forssell strikes me as lacking a little at the moment. After scoring in successive games last year he looked a lot better but started to ebb again as further goals failed to materialise. An international player wanted by a number of large clubs finding himself in a relegation dogfight with a long-ball playing team in the second tier of football and failing to score is going to have his confidence jarred a little bit. Especially one who is still a teenager.

This year we are trying to actually play football instead of hoofing it wildly. Players with experience can adjust quickly, others take a little longer. I am frustrated at times with Forssell (as I am with most of our players) but realise he can become a devasting effective talent in time. Hopefully that will come sooner than later.

As for the criticism of lack of effort: when he gets a bollocking off Razor you'll know he's not putting in the required effort.

[AJ]

We have to remember, if Forsell was really good, then we would not get him on loan.
Chelsea have let us have him, to assist in Forsells development and the chance of first team football.
The guy is only 18 or 19 and is probably too young to be in our first team, it's just we have no-one else!

[brighton_eagle]

I'm not so sure that Chelsea can just take him back. They could if he was on a short term loan, but I think the point of a long term loan is that they can't just recall him when they feel like it.

Also, I really can't see Clint and Forsell scoring 40 goals between them this season. As I have mentioned on a previous thread, I think we desperately need a striker who can score at least 20 goals a season for us. Until we have, we don't really have a chance of anything better than mid table obscurity.
Not that that would be a bad thing!!

Having said that, lets remember where we were only a few months ago. It will take time to rebuild the damage done of nearly two years in administration, and players like Forsell on a year long loan will give us the breathing space to do this.

------------------
Mellor = fat tosser

[Men At Work]

Originally posted by AJ:
We have to remember, if Forsell was really good, then we would not get him on loan.

<sarcasm>
Yeah, those Phelan and Cole blokes were pretty crap last year
</sarcasm>

Why isn't the sodding smiley code working?

[This message has been edited by Men At Work (edited 25 August 2000).]

[brighton_eagle]

I think this issue is related to the Paulo Vernazza thread. The big clubs like Arse and Chelsea seem to be good places for clubs like us to find decent young british players at reasonable prices, Tommy Black and Julian Grey being cases in point, because they(the Arses of this world) insist on buying expensive foreign players.

Forsell simply would not get a regular first team place at Chelsea, although I guess he might get the odd game. By loaning him out for the year, they get the benefit of him getting some much needed first team experience and we get a young player with potential.

Of course, if he doesn't achieve that potential then Chelsea won't want to keep him and we can then sign him permanently for a knock down price.

Perhaps it is all a cunning plan hatched by Smith and Forsell.

http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
Mellor = fat tosser




[This message has been edited by brighton_eagle (edited 25 August 2000).]

[ajp]

As I said before I'm not one for "slagging" players but I don't think I'm doing that and whilst on the field I support every player wearing the beloved Red 'n' Blue!

But we are intitled to criticise, that's not disloyal. The fact is that Mikeal Forsell is not what we need. It's nothing personal but in this division succesful strike forces almost always have a physical striker up front partnering the pacey finisher in the Morrison mould. Look at the sides who were promoted last time, Clownton have Andy Hunt,Man City had Sean Goater and Ipswich are a classic example of what I'm saying, as to improve their chances of promotion they signed Marcus Stewart.

We've already got Clinton as the promising young striker of the future and as he's contracted to Palace will probably reap the rewards of that. But Forsell(as Wedgetail said) will be back in West London if he improves, before we have any chance to reap his talents as a more experianced version of what we see now.

Also I feel that, as a big Clinton Morrsion fan he desperately needs experiance next to him to improve his game. Clinton's our brightest youngster at the moment and wouldn't it be a shame if he never really made it with us, then was sold for far less than he was worth and with experiance next to him made it at another club instead of CPFC!

[This message has been edited by ajp (edited 25 August 2000).]

[Selhurst Dick]

In a perfect world we would a number of quality strikers all battling for a first team spot. Lets remember that we have just come off the life surport machine and our choices are limited.
I think that MK has bags of potential and if he shows just some of that with us this season we will do ok. We could always play Leon Mckenzie who has little potential and could not hit a cows arse with a banjo.His touch is non existant and he has less control than my bladder after 10 pints of stellar.( to be honest I usually find it difficult to walk after ten pints of stellar)

I say give MK a chance we do not have alot of choice.

------------------
Its a Circus and you know who the clowns are !!

[Eagle]

If Forssell does start scoring for fun Chelsea CANNOT call him him back as he registered with Palace untill the end of the season.
The only way Mikael will leave us is if Chelsea decide to sell him and they are not going to do that.

[Palace Eagle]

I've haerd it all now! Prats saying Forsell is great, Forsell works hard blah f*cking blah! Idiots saying what do we do then? Give Leon a millionth chance? No, you sent Forprat back to Chelsea and buy a replacement, work it out!!!!! Also people saying Brett is wrong and will be proved wrong! Errr NO. Thsi coming from the same individuals that think Jansen is GOD and think he's a quality guy! Yes he was real quality when he scored for Blackburn at the start of the season, he looked so sad for scoring against us. And when he said he owes everything to Graeme Souness! So what I'm trying to say is that, those who said and think this obviously do not know about football and do not realise how s*it Forsell really is!

------------------
I'm Palace til i die, I'm Palace til i die, WOO HOO!!!

[Brett]

A tad strong mate. Wow!

[Matty]

Here we go again!

When he first came he got slagged for not scoring. Then he got two in one game and was brilliant.

This season, he scores against QPR, (well, it hit him and went in) misses a great chance, has a quiet game against Cardiff and we're all slagging him off again.

I still think he has class - touch, control and movement off the ball. Just because he doesn't show much emotion.

I know I'd much rather have him up front than McKenzie, who tries hard, but, frankly, really isn't up to the standard.

[Oxted Eagle]

Why do we insist on slagging off our players. The fact of the matter is that Forrsell is a quality player, proven by the fact that he is a full international, and has been bought by one of best former strikers in history....Vialli. It's about time everyone stopped slagging off the players and got behind every single one of them....getting on their backs can only have a negative effect on the way they play.

If he scores a few goals in the next few games then everyone will like him again....proving that some fans are all too fickle.

[selhurstparkflyer]

i agree with oxted eagle
when vialli signed him there were 4 or 5 other massive clubs (eg ajax and bayern) after him.
he has been player of year in finland (at 18 quite an achievement)
i think we should also be a little careful slagging him off as he has two upcoming world cup games against england to highlight his skill.

------------------
'that's the bit i like': b.moore, c.palace v blackburn june 1989

[Ian of Chatham]

I'm sorry Palace Eagle, I didn't realise that most people on here are prats, I presume myself included and you are the expert on here as you seem to imply with your last line of your message. Well since you are the expert do you think that either Jermaine McSporran or Kevin Beattie would be the ideal replacement for Forssell?

[This message has been edited by Ian of Chatham (edited 26 August 2000).]

[Martin H]

I have just read through this thread again. Mainly because I read a comment on another Palace board about how the nature of the chat on the BBS had gone downhill - all about squabbling and not about football and really supporting Palace. I was halfway through a defensive posting in reply when I thought they might have a point.

I think that a debate about the potential, or otherwise of a Palace player is an excellent topic. I think that a debate about the merits of loan deals or investing in long term players is also cool! It's NOT the actual topics that are going downhill.

The failing is in the way in which we seem to debate things now. It starts with a ridiculously outrageous statement which usually includes something the audience or the player, club, owner would find extremely offensive. It is countered by an equally extreme response - often I suspect by the same person with a different alter-ego. we then descend (!) from there into a petty personalised squabble. Any sensible balanced contribution is seemingly ignored (I don't mean mine!). By the last third of every long thread you could almost substitute one thread for another, it's that predictable.

Now I am as passionate about my club and football as the next man, probably more than a lot. I certainly wouldn't be happy with a purely academic evaluation of the game, its players etc. But actually concentrating on the football, club and players rather than flaming, wind-ups etc. would be nice occasionally. The sort of chat you ahve down the pub - before your totally legless preferably. It also seems to me that those contributors best known for this type of dialogue have started to disappear. Slagged off moronically until they have lost interest.

Anyway, I don't know what I am expecting (except more abuse I guess) but I thought it was worth saying before everybody migrates elsewhere. The BBS is and has been great, I really appreciate it - I guess that's why I am posting. Mmmmmmm, perhaps I should have opened this with 'Jordan bites dog and must go!'. Anyway, if you do want to reply I have reposted this to a separate thread rather than interrupt the stimulating debate about 'sending Mikael home'.

***** Sarcasm and victorian grandpa mode off . . . . . . . *****

[Chester 76]

Agree totally, why does there always have to be a target. You are never going to get a team agreed on by everyone .Why does running around like a headless chicken count as effort ? Forssell with the exception of Morrison is the best option we have got.

[spazjuce]

i like mikael as a player, however his form is not too good at present. he has missed chances against qpr and by the sound of it today as well. i reckon he should be dropped for a game so he understands that he is not an automatic choice. he should be earning his place in the team, and maybe a game or two on the bench would remind him to show a bit more interest. he is the sort of player we should be culturing. i dont want to knock his confidence but he may proove useful coming on later in the game with fresh legs.

[Welling Neil]

We need to bring in a quality striker to bring extra competition to the forward line. I no there are doubters out there, but I think Forsell has the class to come through this season.
It will also be interesting to see if he plays against England this autumn and if he does what effect this will have on his confidence and profile.

[Statto]

As sh!t as he is he is still a better forward than Leon. He seems to have a phobia of heading, partictually visible at the walsall game in the bescott. I feel he's a very good dribbler and when he is paying attention is a good player.

I hear he missed yet more sitters at Huddersfield I pray he takes his chances at forest on Monday coz otherwise we will have Mckensie!

If we get mcsporren hopefully he will drop him and play Jamie upfront with SisQo(Morrison)!
We've got him for a season so if we support him maybe he will start to earn his wages!

------------------
Does anybody else think DJ EZ is SH!T?!

[Zonco]

Look, stop having a go at Forsell! I think any one who doesn't rate him has got expectations that are too high. He's only just 19 years of age for god's sake. The same age as Harris, Kabba, Sharpling, Martin etc. If he wasn't from Chelsea and Finland's centre forward, but was a Palace trainee, you'd be raving about his potential. No, he doesn't head the ball, he doesn't appear committed, but that's because he's not brave enough, yet That's normal for a player of his age. Even Norman Whitesaide didn't head the ball until he was 20, and he had as much sense as a door post. Give the kid a chance that's what I say, and enjoy his skill and watch him develop.

[Small number]

Originally posted by Zonco:
Look, stop having a go at Forsell! I think any one who doesn't rate him has got expectations that are too high. He's only just 19 years of age for god's sake. The same age as Harris, Kabba, Sharpling, Martin etc. If he wasn't from Chelsea and Finland's centre forward, but was a Palace trainee, you'd be raving about his potential.

yes but we have got him on a one year's loan so won't benifit from the experience he gains, with loan players your looking for instant success not someone who will start to play half way through the season and may be worth x million in 2 years.


------------------


'The wise will one day rise'
http://pub20.ezboard.com/bcpfcchat



[This message has been edited by Small number (edited 26 August 2000).]

[Henry Pinnell]

OK, heres my take on forsell...

i can accept that he IS a quality player, and that he will be a class player for years to come, however....

If the guy is so talented then why is he playing like a muppet?-i went to both the QPR and the Cardiff match-at QPR both Morrison and forsell looked sluggish, at Cardiff Morrison was more of a threat in the first half-the second half, they both looked sluggish again...

A player such as Tommy Black-who is looking to be the buy of the season-is inexperienced,young and talented-but he's producing the goods-Forsell isnt..

If Forsell is such quality he has to be able to adapt to the palace way of playing!-he had the chance the end of last season and a few games this-and again looks useless, he's no match for the big centre halves in the 1st division..
I would prefer to see McKenzie given a chance(yes i know-another), but he has heart, he can play with Palaces style and also-will probably be at the club for longer than just this season..

Maybe even playng Gray as a forward?-he showed great promise as a winger at both QPR and Cardiff, he's tall-will reach the ball which Morisson and Forsell cant do,has skill and can score(eg.huddersfiled match)...

Whats everyone elses view?...

Henry Pinnell

[West]

As I have already said on another thread I would like to see some of the young Palace players given a chance eg. Mckensie, Kabba, Sharpling etc.

Perhaps Forsell should be put on the bench at the beginning of each match and only used if the alternatives are not effective.

Forsell has missed "tap ins" in virtually every match so far but Morrison has not and this suggests to me that forsell is at least getting into scoring positions more often.

[John 24]

I don't think we gain much from playing a loan player for a whole season if there is no chance on signing him. The youngsters should be given a chance.....same goes for Matt Gregg, he should be starting, not Taylor.

[Henry Pinnell]

i would like us to sign Taylor-unfortunately i dont think we have much chance of that-hes rated very highly in the game and was taken to Euro2000 with England for experience..
Therefore i would like us to sign taylor, however my opinion of forsell is that i wouldnt want us to sign him, we already have players like him-morisson and mckenzie..

i would like to know something..
are we paying Forsell's wages?....

[Dave]

i would like to know something..
are we paying Forsell's wages?....


Some of them but not them all. he is relatively cheap compared to some others...

[Vic Eagle]

...and seconded.

The name of this thread just proves your point. Before even arguing his point Brett has abused Forsell...and all this only three matches into the season!

[Brett]

Martin H.

I have watched all of Mikeal Forssell's games in person. My evaluation of his attributes are therefore legible.

My response is if you dont want to read this stuff - dont. You were obviously suitably imprssed by the content and the amount of people who saw fit to reply, that you needed to reply yourself.

If Forssell has a problem with what I write (my opinion of his ability) then he can either explain to me or show me different on the pitch (whether he gives a sh!t what I think anyway I doubt); but the board is about freedom of expression.

Over to you Mikael.

[forsells no1 fan]

just read these comments on 7 - 03 -01.so can u tell me all again forsell is what at football.
at time of writing hes just got his 2nd consecutive player of the month award and is the only player we have that is giving 110% every week.

THERES ONLY ONE MIKAEL FORSSELL


FORSELL IS ABSOULTE CLASS AND DONT U FORGET IT!

[bcfcfan]

Hi, Birmingham fan here. Someone posted this thread on our forum and I couldn't resist replying to it. Forss is a legend, I think over 20 goals this season might show that! And Clinton is a really hard worker and a good bloke but those who were saying how much better he was than Mikael must feel a bit silly now.

Anyway good luck in the play-offs, I think you've hit the form at the right time.

[davematt]

Originally posted by bcfcfan
Hi, Birmingham fan here. Someone posted this thread on our forum and I couldn't resist replying to it. Forss is a legend, I think over 20 goals this season might show that! And Clinton is a really hard worker and a good bloke but those who were saying how much better he was than Mikael must feel a bit silly now.

Anyway good luck in the play-offs, I think you've hit the form at the right time.

Clinton, Who's Clinton???? We have SUPER AJ!!!!!! Looks like we got the better of the deal now!

[Random*]

Originally posted by bcfcfan
Hi, Birmingham fan here. Someone posted this thread on our forum and I couldn't resist replying to it. Forss is a legend, I think over 20 goals this season might show that! And Clinton is a really hard worker and a good bloke but those who were saying how much better he was than Mikael must feel a bit silly now.

Anyway good luck in the play-offs, I think you've hit the form at the right time.

I think what's more amusing is that to find this thread using Google, the Birmingham fan would have had to type in 'Bugger Mikael'.

[cpfcben]

The ex- palace strike duo playing for Brum, who would have thought it. You will do well to hang on to him though. Chelsea would be mad to sell him.

[Daddy Long]

Interesting reading back through all that. At the time those comments were valid. Forssell looked a liability when he first joined us. He was terribly slow and every shot he took went about 10 feet over the bar. However, the longer he stayed with us the more he developed into the player he is today. Would certainly welcome him back ;)

As for Clinton, just wait. He is class and I think next season you'll see the best of him.

[Gooders]

Originally posted by bcfcfan
Hi, Birmingham fan here. Someone posted this thread on our forum and I couldn't resist replying to it. Forss is a legend, I think over 20 goals this season might show that!

He's done great for you this season, no doubt.

Still think (from the highlights I've seen throughout the season) that he hogs the ball too much when a team-mate is in a better position. If he could fix that part of his game, he might be good enough to play for Chelsea. ;)

[Al From Bromley]

This thread may explain why Brett works for the DSS and Forssell is an international footballer. Just a thought. ;)

[bcfcfan]

Ah I don't want to get into an argument about AJ and Clinton, he's done well but don't expect him to score in the Premier League because he has in the Nationwide. Anyway, the post was mainly to point out that slagging players off can come back to bite you in the arse and don't rule out someone too quickly!

[Neil the Eagle]

Originally posted by Daddy Long
Forssell looked a liability when he first joined us. He was terribly slow ...

Are we talking about the same player, DL? Mikael had wonderfully quick feet, his first touch was a joy and he regularly outstripped defenders with his pace in his first few games, it was when he got sight of goal that the problems started! Once he broke his duck though, he was unstoppable.

Always thought he'd do well, but honestly thought he'd have to move abroad to get a decent chance.

[Daddy Long]

Originally posted by Neil the Eagle
Are we talking about the same player, DL?

We are :)

No doubt that he had amazingly quick feet but he was very slow. It was his skill and strength that got him past players, not any pace. That seems to be something that he has developed over time. Thats my recollection of it anyway.

[jassyblue69]

just found this dont ask how???

but doesnt it show how wrong you can be about a player doesnt it??

oh well your loss is our gain

Keep right on SOTV

[LLCOOLSTEVE]

Originally posted by Brett


My conclusion is - I was right - he is crap.


Forssell is crap - admit it.


:D

[jassyblue69]

nope found it on link to forsell out?? dont ask havnt a clue how this come up??:hi:

[davematt]

Originally posted by jassyblue69
just found this dont ask how???

but doesnt it show how wrong you can be about a player doesnt it??

oh well your loss is our gain

Keep right on SOTV

I have to agree. But you will not get Forssell on a full time basis, and I have to get this in, but losing AJ is your loss, our gain!

[jassyblue69]

yeah he's done great for you!! he could never score for us??

he obviously needed a change of club, players do :p

as for forsell not signing .... never say never you have to keep the faith :p

[davematt]

Originally posted by jassyblue69
yeah he's done great for you!! he could never score for us??

he obviously needed a change of club, players do :p

as for forsell not signing .... never say never you have to keep the faith :p

To be fair, he could never score for us until Francis left. He had a little spell when he scored 10 in 5 games, but that was really it under Francis. Since Messiah Dowie has taken over, AJ has turned into the division 1 virsion of Thierry Henry. His pace is deadly, and he has turned into a very clinical finsisher. I do wonder if Brucie regrets his decision now, but Clinton is still a great player and I have heard some good things about him lately. As for Forssell, he would be a great signing for Birmingham, but Chelsea would be stupid to sell him, as he is a natural goalscorer in a side that is over acheiving (no disrespect, but you are) and sets up very defensve minded.

[JamieBcpfc]

God when I saw this thread I thought someone was having a go at Leigerwood

[imilanpalace]

Originally posted by bcfcfan
Ah I don't want to get into an argument about AJ and Clinton, he's done well but don't expect him to score in the Premier League because he has in the Nationwide. Anyway, the post was mainly to point out that slagging players off can come back to bite you in the arse and don't rule out someone too quickly! so hell be the same as CM but with pace and no dodgy shoulder then?

[Tony]

Originally posted by davematt
As for Forssell, he would be a great signing for Birmingham, but Chelsea would be stupid to sell him, as he is a natural goalscorer in a side that is over acheiving…

Not that I know (or care) much about it, as I've hardly watched either side, but is Chelsea's management on drugs? They loan out Forssell while shelling out billions on cack like Crespo and Mutu. No wonder they're puffing home in second.

[cpfcben]

I have to admit I thought AJ wouldn't make the grade when he first joined us. We could all see he had great potential but whenever I saw him play, his finshing was awful. However he has shown a great determination and attitude and has worked hard to improve his game. There must be thousands of occassions when we are all proved wrong. This is especially so in football as the majority of football fans are fickle.

[Men At Work]

Originally posted by Neil the Eagle
Are we talking about the same player, DL? Mikael had wonderfully quick feet, his first touch was a joy and he regularly outstripped defenders with his pace in his first few games, it was when he got sight of goal that the problems started!

I remember the quick feet and the inability to jump but not his pace. He also had the ability the dribble past three players but then a tendancy to try to go past another three (are you listening, Wayne?). From the highlights I've seen of him this year he's had a lot of those issues coached out of him and is now a very good player. Chelsea will a better team when he's back with them next year.

[Gooders]

Talksport this morning said that Brum are hoping to sign him permanently for £6 million.

[Brett]

To be fair he was very lazy. I did say on the boards (not necessarily this thread) that he could become a truly wonderful player if he got stuck in a bit more. Much the same as Dougie these days.

[Panther]

I thought also that when he was with us he allowed himself to be outdone physically by too many crude defenders but he seems to have matured greatly now and of course is a couple of years older and wiser. Good luck to him.

[Brett]

PS - can we scrap this thread?

I'm rather embaressed reading back.

[jassyblue69]

forsell signs a further year loan at birmingham!!

that russian wants to own everyone then loan them out !!! complete controll?

brilliant news for us

KRO