View Full Version : Routledge in FHM
Interview with Routledge in Mays FHM,
Hardly in depth, however Routledge suggests that he scored within 30 seconds of coming on for his debut against Wolves.
He conveniently missed out his previous appearances and his full debut against Plymouth.
Suppose the truth doesnt sound as good :rolleyes:
And he finished every sentance with 'man'
Diggers digs in?
24-04-2006, 10:21 AM
Well, that's 10 seconds of my life I'm not getting back
Neil the Eagle
24-04-2006, 10:38 AM
Wolves was his first league start.
If anything, this just displays how little regard footballers have for the League Cup.
Originally posted by Neil the Eagle
Wolves was his first league start.
If anything, this just displays how little regard footballers have for the League Cup.
I know that Neil, but the way the article was written he intimated he had come off the bench against Wolves and scored within 30 seconds of his debut.
Mr Clean
24-04-2006, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by 917L
Interview with Routledge in Mays FHM,
And he finished every sentance with 'man'
So what?
Originally posted by Mr Clean
So what?
So its an observation
kolinkins
24-04-2006, 12:38 PM
Wayne was a MASSIVE loss for CPFC and he cannot be replaced. No player as good as him will join us.
That Wolves game was magic for Wayne. Good finish as well.
andyocpfc
24-04-2006, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by kolinkins
Wayne was a MASSIVE loss for CPFC and he cannot be replaced. No player as good as him will join us.
That Wolves game was magic for Wayne. Good finish as well.
Totally disagree in everyway shape and form.
Vastly over rated in a palace shirt, predictable, too lightweight, no end product!
The list goes on.
Unlike some, gave him total support whilst he wore a palace shirt but was delighted when we sold him eventually and got Jobi. Far better player in very way.
CPFC Guy
24-04-2006, 12:55 PM
He was a slightly better version of Julian Gray
Velocity
24-04-2006, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by kolinkins
Wayne was a MASSIVE loss for CPFC and he cannot be replaced. No player as good as him will join us.
That Wolves game was magic for Wayne. Good finish as well.
LOL. Get over it already.
James
24-04-2006, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by kolinkins
Wayne was a MASSIVE loss for CPFC and he cannot be replaced. No player as good as him will join us.
That Wolves game was magic for Wayne. Good finish as well. I agree. Wayne was never properly appreciated by Palace fans.
Mong!
24-04-2006, 05:19 PM
It's another wayne debate...
maestro
24-04-2006, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by kolinkins
Wayne was a MASSIVE loss for CPFC and he cannot be replaced. No player as good as him will join us.
That Wolves game was magic for Wayne. Good finish as well.
I agree, i thought wayne was a great loss
boxing francis
24-04-2006, 05:25 PM
Move on.
aj4england
24-04-2006, 05:27 PM
Get wayne back Dowie!!
Velocity
24-04-2006, 07:00 PM
If we will never sign a better player than him then why don't we just give up now, we are doomed.
Selhurst300
24-04-2006, 07:42 PM
Recently watched our season review DVD from a couple of years ago and it was really strking what the contribution was from Wayne and Julian tearing down the flanks. Something we really miss today and possibly why we have to play hoof ball.
Originally posted by kolinkins
Wayne was a MASSIVE loss for CPFC and he cannot be replaced. No player as good as him will join us.
Strange that literally dozens of players that were/are better than Routledge have joined us in the past.
That being the case I have no doubt dozens of players that are better than him will join us in the future.
Benzhiyi
24-04-2006, 09:31 PM
So Wayne was vastly overrated but Tommy Black deserves a run in the side?
Christ almighty.
kolinkins
24-04-2006, 09:33 PM
20ec
Originally posted by 917L
Strange that literally dozens of players that were/are better than Routledge have joined us in the past.
That being the case I have no doubt dozens of players that are better than him will join us in the future.
Name a better winger than Wayne who has played for Palace in the last 6 years.
Originally posted by Benzhiyi
So Wayne was vastly overrated but Tommy Black deserves a run in the side?
Christ almighty.
Please show me where I said TB deserves a run in the side? (you can't as I didn't)
So you disagree that we've signed better player's than WR and wont ever sign anyone better?
Originally posted by kolinkins
Name a better winger than Wayne who has played for Palace in the last 6 years.
Re read your original post it doesnt stipulate winger.
But IMO
Gray,Kolkka,Jobi,Reich,
kolinkins
24-04-2006, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by 917L
Re read your original post it doesnt stipulate winger.
But IMO
Gray,Kolkka,Jobi,Reich,
I said better, not just name the wingers.
sci-dogg
24-04-2006, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by andyocpfc
Vastly over rated in a palace shirt, predictable, too lightweight, no end product!
The list goes on.
Unlike some, gave him total support whilst he wore a palace shirt but was delighted when we sold him eventually and got Jobi. Far better player in very way.
keep telling yourself that:p :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Originally posted by kolinkins
I said better, not just name the wingers.
They are or were better, IMO of course.
Salad's Knee
24-04-2006, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by kolinkins
Name a better winger than Wayne who has played for Palace in the last 6 years.
Andy Johnson. We just didn't realise at the time.....
Benzhiyi
24-04-2006, 10:53 PM
If Reich or Jobi are better than Routledge then I'm a better centre back than Hall.
Now, I don't particularly rate Fitz but...
gjtango
24-04-2006, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by kolinkins
I said better, not just name the whingers.
Gray, Routledge? :cool:
kolinkins
24-04-2006, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Benzhiyi
If Reich or Jobi are better than Routledge then I'm a better centre back than Hall.
Now, I don't particularly rate Fitz but...
You've changed your tune re: Wayne and Jobi ;)
David Amsalem
24-04-2006, 11:34 PM
If we had Routledge and Gray this season, we'll be in the automatic promotion zone.
I like McAnuff, but he ain't the same as Routledge. As of Gray, we've never replaced him.
You never know what you got 'till its gone.
Velocity
25-04-2006, 12:53 AM
jesus christ.
Originally posted by David Amsalem
If we had Routledge and Gray this season, we'll be in the automatic promotion zone.
I like McAnuff, but he ain't the same as Routledge. As of Gray, we've never replaced him.
You never know what you got 'till its gone.
In Grays case thats true,
But add Jobis goals to his assists this season and it will beat anything Routledge has ever achieved.
Benzhiyi
25-04-2006, 08:41 AM
Yeah, ten Premiership assists (http://www.fantasyfootballstats.co.uk/2004-05/playerstats/assists.php) in a relegated side. He was rubbish. Glad he's gone with all those brilliant wingers we have now.
PalaceMonkey
25-04-2006, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by kolinkins
Wayne was a MASSIVE loss for CPFC and he cannot be replaced. No player as good as him will join us.
I agree that he was a loss.
I disagree with your second two points, why can't he be replaced?
Why will no better player want to join us?
Originally posted by Benzhiyi
Yeah, ten Premiership assists (http://www.fantasyfootballstats.co.uk/2004-05/playerstats/assists.php) in a relegated side. He was rubbish. Glad he's gone with all those brilliant wingers we have now.
So Jobis has failed to delievr has he?
Amazing how some people can be seduced by a player that steps over the ball a lot.
And yes I am glad he's gone. Possible the most overrated player I've ever seen here.
hakers
25-04-2006, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Velocity
jesus christ.
Was he a left or right winger??
smileysmith
25-04-2006, 09:01 AM
I love this debate. Happens everytime Wayne's name is mentioned and becomes more pointless each time.
:love:
smileysmith
25-04-2006, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by kolinkins
Name a better winger than Wayne who has played for Palace in the last 6 years. John Salako. :D
Simon Jordan. Clase Closed.
kolinkins
25-04-2006, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by PalaceMonkey
I agree that he was a loss.
I disagree with your second two points, why can't he be replaced?
Why will no better player want to join us?
Players like Wayne cant be replaced because we cant afford them. We lost Wright and could not find someone as good as him, same with AJ when he leaves. These players move on because they are too good for Palace, and clearly the players we replace them with will not be as good.
2184
PalaceMonkey
25-04-2006, 09:12 AM
Depends on the division we're in.
Who'd have thought Lombardo would join us?
But he did, and so I believe that we will get better players than him in the future.
kolinkins
25-04-2006, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by PalaceMonkey
Depends on the division we're in.
Who'd have thought Lombardo would join us?
But he did, and so I believe that we will get better players than him in the future.
Ok, well we might sign a better player then him, but only if he is past it!
We're unlikely to sign a player between the ages of 19-24 where one still has potential mixed with existing great ability. Reich and Jobi are not in Wayne's class.
Originally posted by kolinkins
Reich and Jobi are not in Wayne's class.
No theyre both far better
kolinkins
25-04-2006, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by 917L
No theyre both far better
Yes, you're right. They are both far better, as our results, their performances and the division they play in show. Tell me chap, how comes Jobi and Reich arent playing in the Premiership?
PalaceMonkey
25-04-2006, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by kolinkins
Ok, well we might sign a better player then him, but only if he is past it!
We're unlikely to sign a player between the ages of 19-24 where one still has potential mixed with existing great ability. Reich and Jobi are not in Wayne's class.
you keep narrowing your definitions!
So we won't sign a winger between the ages of 19-24 with the same ability & potential?
I still disagree, but there you go :)
kolinkins
25-04-2006, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by PalaceMonkey
you keep narrowing your definitions!
So we won't sign a winger between the ages of 19-24 with the same ability & potential?
I still disagree, but there you go :)
I still think we wont sign a player (whatever the age and position) as good as Wayne. We might sign someone as effective as him, but no player as good as him in the forseeable future.
andyocpfc
25-04-2006, 09:32 AM
You cant compare the quality of Wright and WR in the same sentence. Wright was an England international and went in a big money move to which he also became a great Arsenal goal scorer. WR went and got dumped into the reserves and then off loaded on loan. WR is best an average player IMHO
smileysmith
25-04-2006, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by kolinkins
I still think we wont sign a player (whatever the age and position) as good as Wayne. We might sign someone as effective as him, but no player as good as him in the forseeable future. Whilst I agree with the general point you are making to an extent Klinx, this is a bit of a silly statement.
If a player is as effective, he is as good. A player can be as talented as he likes, but if he is not effective for the team - who cares?
chelmsfordeagle
25-04-2006, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Velocity
jesus christ.
was he a loan signing? if so can a loan siging count as a better player than WR?
PalaceMonkey
25-04-2006, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by kolinkins
I still think we wont sign a player (whatever the age and position) as good as Wayne. We might sign someone as effective as him, but no player as good as him in the forseeable future.
So if we got promoted and stayed up for a year or two, you still don't think we'd sign someone as good?
He's hardly set the world alight in the Prem so far, we might even sign him again!
Originally posted by kolinkins
Yes, you're right. They are both far better, as our results, their performances and the division they play in show. Tell me chap, how comes Jobi and Reich arent playing in the Premiership?
Because they are contracted to CPFC and we're not in Th Premiership?, why isnt AJ playing in the Premiership?
And you say we'll never be able to replace him, strange thats what everybody said about Clinton when we did that deal, AJ ws no replacement etc etc
Chap?:clown:
andyocpfc
25-04-2006, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by chelmsfordeagle
was he a loan signing? if so can a loan siging count as a better player than WR?
Oh god !!! :D
kolinkins
25-04-2006, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by PalaceMonkey
So if we got promoted and stayed up for a year or two, you still don't think we'd sign someone as good?
He's hardly set the world alight in the Prem so far, we might even sign him again!
No we wont sign anyone as good. I would say the same for AJ when he leaves as well. And maybe Ben Watson as well.
Players like Wayne and Ben and to an extent AJ joined us because they were starting from zero. They have grown and become good players at Palace. As such, we wont be able to, as Palace, sign players who are as good when we sign them as Wayne was when he left, or as AJ or Ben will be when they leave. Thats not to say that we wont sign players who go on to become as good as them, but we wont sign a player who is a ready-made replacement. We're not a big enough club.
LSEagle
25-04-2006, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by kolinkins
Tell me chap, how comes Jobi and Reich arent playing in the Premiership?
Wayne is never in the starting XI for a side that's in the bottom 4 of the premiership, which to my mind says he's not as good as he (or you) think he is
smileysmith
25-04-2006, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by kolinkins
No we wont sign anyone as good. I would say the same for AJ when he leaves as well. And maybe Ben Watson as well.
Players like Wayne and Ben and to an extent AJ joined us because they were starting from zero. They have grown and become good players at Palace. As such, we wont be able to, as Palace, sign players who are as good when we sign them as Wayne was when he left, or as AJ or Ben will be when they leave. Thats not to say that we wont sign players who go on to become as good as them, but we wont sign a player who is a ready-made replacement. We're not a big enough club. Thats why clubs like us sign potential players.
We're quite good at it usually.
2026
PalaceMonkey
25-04-2006, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by kolinkins
Thats not to say that we wont sign players who go on to become as good as them, but we wont sign a player who is a ready-made replacement. We're not a big enough club.
Ah, I've finally wrung out of you what you mean!
Yes, I can perhaps agree with that, we might sign players who become as good, or players who are very good, but are slightly on the old side.
Originally posted by kolinkins
No we wont sign anyone as good. I would say the same for AJ when he leaves as well. And maybe Ben Watson as well.
Players like Wayne and Ben and to an extent AJ joined us because they were starting from zero. They have grown and become good players at Palace. As such, we wont be able to, as Palace, sign players who are as good when we sign them as Wayne was when he left, or as AJ or Ben will be when they leave. Thats not to say that we wont sign players who go on to become as good as them, but we wont sign a player who is a ready-made replacement. We're not a big enough club.
You'd think Routledge was irreplaceable, as good as someone like Peter Taylor or Don Rogers, in Palace terminnology. He isnt.
Add the fact that he's been usurped at Spurs by 18 year old Lennon, who is a much better player.
You talk Watson up as if he's the next Zidane, he isnt.
Your comment about we're not a big enough club to sign anyone that good, strange he's only making Portsmouths bench then....(who are not a bigger club than us).
kolinkins
25-04-2006, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by LSEagle
Wayne is never in the starting XI for a side that's in the bottom 4 of the premiership, which to my mind says he's not as good as he (or you) think he is
They love him down there! His role as a sub means he is very effective! Amazing really how much better Pompey do in the second half of matches, especially in the last half-hour! Their fans love him too!
His contribution for us last year was as important as AJ's, even more remarkable considering the stick he had to put up with from the fans and his contract situation.
wedgetail
25-04-2006, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by kolinkins
Wayne was a MASSIVE loss for CPFC and he cannot be replaced. No player as good as him will join us.
....
Forgotten Lombardo and Jansen so quickly? Wayne will never be their equal.
oh yeah, and a certain striker in the current side.
PalaceMonkey
25-04-2006, 09:52 AM
Macken?
kolinkins
25-04-2006, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by wedgetail
Forgotten Lombardo and Jansen so quickly? Wayne will never be their equal.
oh yeah, and a certain striker in the current side.
Lombardo and Jansen were in the past, different football, different Palace. Would the likes of Lombardo and Jansne (their equivalents in this day and age) join us now?
Amazing how much better AJ played with Wayne in the side than without, isnt it?
James
25-04-2006, 10:01 AM
It's a pointless debate. There are many fans who clearly dislike Wayne for non-footballing reasons and who are thus unable to judge him objectively. Let's move on.
kolinkins
25-04-2006, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by James
It's a pointless debate. There are many fans who clearly dislike Wayne for non-footballing reasons and who are thus unable to judge him objectively. Let's move on.
Agree
Freddy Kurz
25-04-2006, 10:08 AM
Am saddened by the apparent inability of so many people to be unable
to make an objective assessment of former Palace players and their
past contribution to the team and to the Club we all support.
Routledge was probably the most talented of the fine crop of youngsters
produced by the Academy under the early tutelage of John Cartwright.
Making his debut at only 16 in 2001/2, playing two games in the
inter-regnum following the departure of Bruce, he went on to app-
ear in another 108 League matches (scoring 10 goals) in Division
One and the Premiership up to 2004/5 and was selected success-
ively for England Youth, U20's and U21's for whom he has per-
formed consistently well.
While he played regularly for the first-team, Palace achieved 14th
and then 6th place in Division One, in the latter season reach-
ing the play-offs and gaining promotion by beating West Ham
1-0 in the Final at the Millennium Stadium, Cardiff. In that
season, 2003/4, when still 18 &19, he played in 44 League
games plus all 3 play-offs, scoring 6 goals. In 2004/5,
his debut season in the Premier League he played 38 times
as Palace failed by only one point to avoid relegation.
Moving on to 'Spurs, prematurely, as many Palace fans
believed, he was unlucky to pick up his first serious in-
jury, and lost his place to the stronger, quicker and
more incisive Aaron Lennon, leaving him little option
but to join Harry Redknapp on loan at Portsmouth.
He will no doubt be working harder than ever down
there to prove his critics wrong, and in the current
dogfight for survival at the bottom of the Premier
League, he won't have a better stage on which to
display both his undoubted ability and character!
He has already shown up well in a couple of recent
substitute cameo performances, so things could at
last be looking up for this talented young player.
Good luck Wayne, all genuine football fans at Palace
wish you well for your future professional career!
PalaceMonkey
25-04-2006, 10:08 AM
I don't dislike him, I've already said we miss him, I'm just trying to get to the bones of Klinx's argument.
And I still disagree, I do think the equivalent of Jansen/Lombardo would join us (if in the prem)
MANCDAZEAGLE
25-04-2006, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by andyocpfc
Totally disagree in everyway shape and form.
Vastly over rated in a palace shirt, predictable, too lightweight, no end product!
The list goes on.
Unlike some, gave him total support whilst he wore a palace shirt but was delighted when we sold him eventually and got Jobi. Far better player in very way.
Totally agree with Andyocpfc on this one ok wayne was an exceptional talent but jobi has more than that to his game and scores more goals
:p :p :p :p :p :p
23be
smileysmith
25-04-2006, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by PalaceMonkey
I don't dislike him, I've already said we miss him, I'm just trying to get to the bones of Klinx's argument.
And I still disagree, I do think the equivalent of Jansen/Lombardo would join us (if in the prem) I'm with you on this. Particularly if we stayed up one season.
kolinkins
25-04-2006, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by PalaceMonkey
And I still disagree, I do think the equivalent of Jansen/Lombardo would join us (if in the prem)
A Lombardo might, a Jansen wont.
Originally posted by James
It's a pointless debate. There are many fans who clearly dislike Wayne for non-footballing reasons and who are thus unable to judge him objectively. Let's move on.
So because someone has a different opinion to you, they must have a different agenda?
Couldn't be that not everyone rates him that highly as a footballer??
Freddy Kurz
25-04-2006, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by MANCDAZEAGLE
Totally agree with Andyocpfc on this one ok wayne was an exceptional talent but jobi has more than that to his game and scores more goals
:p :p :p :p :p :p
Have to disagree with you and Andyocpfc in one significant respect,
namely with the assertion that Routledge's game had no "end product".
Up to Christmas 2004/05, I recall that Routledge was statistically one
of the leading goal-providers in the entire Premier League, at one time
being credited with 8 or 9 "goal-assists".
His record of assists certainly tailed off by the end of the season,
but that could well be due to opposition defensive tactics of close-
marking, cutting off his supply of the ball and of our lack of players
giving Routledge close support and/or the absence of a target man.
I'm still able to recall clearly how effective Routledge was as a goal-
provider during the 2003/4 promotion season, but then Palace had a
genuine target-man, Shipperley, playing alongside Johnson,
who was always available to receive a cross or pass from
Routledge.
When he wasn't around, both Hughes and Butterfield were usually waiting to receive Routledge's "out" pass to ensure we maintained
possession.
In the absence of Shipperley we lacked a dominating ball-holding
forward, putting much greater onus on Johnson to fight for poss-
ession, while his lack of inches, ruled out high crosses.
While Boyce proved to be a great plus as a defender, he had not
yet developed the attacking, passing skills of Butterfield, with the
result that Routledge often found his forward runs barred by opp-
osing defenders and lacked a player to pass to, hence possession
was lost to the opposition, for which Routledge was often unfair-
ly criticised. If a winger's way is barred and he has no one to
pass to, he will all too often try to dribble his way out of trouble,
and that is a dangerous game to play against top Premier League
defenders, who are just waiting to seize the ball to set up coun-
ter-attacks!
kolinkins
25-04-2006, 10:56 AM
Freddy on the money ;)
Originally posted by kolinkins
A Lombardo might, a Jansen wont.
So you're seriously suggesting a young player (of Jansens ability) who has started less than 25 games in league 2, when offered a deal by a Premiership club (Palace) will turn it down 'because we're not big enough'
Total nonsense.
andyocpfc
25-04-2006, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by James
It's a pointless debate. There are many fans who clearly dislike Wayne for non-footballing reasons and who are thus unable to judge him objectively. Let's move on.
I have no problem with him as a person nor do i dislike the lad, i just gererally believe he is a vastly over rated player and one that i think the club did well to move on and pocket some cash. The in's and out's of the controversy during his departure has no relevance to my point.
PalaceMonkey
25-04-2006, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by 917L
So you're seriously suggesting a young player (of Jansens ability) who has started less than 25 games in league 2, when offered a deal by a Premiership club (Palace) will turn it down 'because we're not big enough'
Total nonsense.
I agree.
kolinkins
25-04-2006, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by 917L
So you're seriously suggesting a young player (of Jansens ability) who has started less than 25 games in league 2, when offered a deal by a Premiership club (Palace) will turn it down 'because we're not big enough'
Total nonsense.
If he has the same potential as Jansen, he'll end up at a bigger club.
smileysmith
25-04-2006, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by kolinkins
If he has the same potential as Jansen, he'll end up at a bigger club. :rolleyes: Klinx you are being silly. Of course Palace are capable of signing this type of player.
We just haven't recently been great at finding them ...
PalaceMonkey
25-04-2006, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by kolinkins
If he has the same potential as Jansen, he'll end up at a bigger club.
why?
Jansen chose us instead of Man U.
Who is to say other peeps won't?
limited_edition
25-04-2006, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by kolinkins
No we wont sign anyone as good. I would say the same for AJ when he leaves as well. And maybe Ben Watson as well.
Players like Wayne and Ben and to an extent AJ joined us because they were starting from zero. They have grown and become good players at Palace. As such, we wont be able to, as Palace, sign players who are as good when we sign them as Wayne was when he left, or as AJ or Ben will be when they leave. Thats not to say that we wont sign players who go on to become as good as them, but we wont sign a player who is a ready-made replacement. We're not a big enough club. Hang on, I've heard this argument before. Albeit from another club. The Wet Sham side that came down 3 years ago on paper was a better side than the one now. Joe Cole, Defoe, Carrick etc. The players brought in their places weren't better like for like replacements, but you can't argue that Wet Sham are a better team, a better unit now. With the right astute signings and coaching we can eventually turn young players into top players. Eg look at Harewood's development. Who'd have thought he'd be such and effective striker at Prem level back in his Forest and early Wet Sham days ? Didn't help when he was employed wide right, I know. You could make the same argument for AJ who was a none to prolific winger-cum-striker in his Brum days bought in to replace a pretty potent striker in the time in Clint.
You forget that we developed our young players like Ben and Wayne without the benefit of an Academy. Well, we've got one now, so I expect us to keep up, if not better, our record of bringing young players through. Who knows what will happen to Victor Moses in a few years time ? Stop being so bloody miserable about Palace. I thought that was supposed to be my job !
1f5a
kolinkins
25-04-2006, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by limited_edition
Hang on, I've heard this argument before. Albeit from another club. The Wet Sham side that came down 3 years ago on paper was a better side than the one now. Joe Cole, Defoe, Carrick etc. The players brought in their places weren't better like for like replacements, but you can't argue that Wet Sham are a better team, a better unit now. With the right astute signings and coaching we can eventually turn young players into top players. Eg look at Harewood's development. Who'd have thought he'd be such and effective striker at Prem level back in his Forest and early Wet Sham days ? Didn't help when he was employed wide right, I know. You could make the same argument for AJ who was a none to prolific winger-cum-striker in his Brum days bought in to replace a pretty potent striker in the time in Clint.
You forget that we developed our young players like Ben and Wayne without the benefit of an Academy. Well, we've got one now, so I expect us to keep up, if not better, our record of bringing young players through. Who knows what will happen to Victor Moses in a few years time ? Stop being so bloody miserable about Palace. I thought that was supposed to be my job !
All pretty much spot on. My point L_E is not that we wont have another player of his talent, but that we wont find a ready-made player of his talent. Sure, Victor Moses (and Bostock) might go on and be better than Wayne, but they are players who are coming through rather than players we are signing.
Bottom line is, we miss Wayne. And clearly the team misses him too - a winger who can stay fit for a whole season!
limited_edition
25-04-2006, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by kolinkins
All pretty much spot on. My point L_E is not that we wont have another player of his talent, but that we wont find a ready-made player of his talent. Sure, Victor Moses (and Bostock) might go on and be better than Wayne, but they are players who are coming through rather than players we are signing.
Bottom line is, we miss Wayne. And clearly the team misses him too - a winger who can stay fit for a whole season! But we brought through Wayne and Ben, rather than sign them so it is a valid(ish) comparison. I'd rather wait for these kids to come through than us sign another ex Chesham mate. As you know, I have little faith in Cap'n Bob's scouting. For a club without an Academy, we certainly punch above our weight when it comes to bringing players through, Wayne, Ben, Mullins, Clinton, etc, etc.
Even when fit, Reich and Jobi aren't out and out wingers. They can't skin players with their pace & trickery. Nor go around the outside of a full back and whip a cross in. They are wide midfielders, who have a penchant for coming inside and linking with the front two and getting into good goalscoring positions. Wayne wasn't as direct as he was a different sort of player.
Strathclyde Eagle
25-04-2006, 02:50 PM
If we go up I'd be very interested to see what the player playing in Wayne's position contributes in terms of goals and assists. Wayne's supporters are very keen to mention the number of assists he got, yet gloss over his 0% strike rate in the top flight.
PalaceMonkey
25-04-2006, 02:56 PM
Also WR was our main corner taker, I'm not sure what his assists in free play were like.
David Amsalem
25-04-2006, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by James
It's a pointless debate. There are many fans who clearly dislike Wayne for non-footballing reasons and who are thus unable to judge him objectively. Let's move on.
This is the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned.
Everybody who doesn't rate it, doesn't appear to like him as a person neither.
Wayne was far from the finished article, don't get me wrong, but he is a Premiership player. As for Jobi, I do rate him, but I'm not sure if I rate him as a Premiership player. Of course, he maybe the type who thrives better in the Premiership then the Championship and hopefully we'll see.
As for being impressed with a few step-overs, that isn't the case.
Although Wayne couldn't take a corner to save his life ;)
Edit: didn't even see your post PalaceMonkey before I wrote that so yes, it would be very interesting to see that.
Originally posted by David Amsalem
This is the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned.
Everybody who doesn't rate it, doesn't appear to like him as a person neither.
What do you base that comment on, I've seen nothing on here suggesting anyone dislikes him as a person, TBH I have no idea as I've never met him face to face.
I dont rate him as a player nothing else, I didnt when he was here and I still dont.
Like James you're trying to muddy the waters instead of discussing his attributes or lack of them.
Velocity
25-04-2006, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by James
It's a pointless debate. There are many fans who clearly dislike Wayne for non-footballing reasons and who are thus unable to judge him objectively. Let's move on.
So because we don't agree with you it is because of non footballing reasons? You are a joke.
PalaceMonkey
25-04-2006, 03:18 PM
This has been quite a good thread for not being full of Routledge bashing based on him leaving us.
It's been quite sensible so far.
David Amsalem
25-04-2006, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by 917L
What do you base that comment on, I've seen nothing on here suggesting anyone dislikes him as a person, TBH I have no idea as I've never met him face to face.
I dont rate him as a player nothing else, I didnt when he was here and I still dont.
Like James you're trying to muddy the waters instead of discussing his attributes or lack of them.
Not at all. Its a fair observation. From what I've seen (and read on here) most people, in my experience, who don't rate him, didn't like him as a person neither despite not meeting him.
You're an obvious exception, although your original post shows you don't hold him in the highest regard.
Routledge did good for us. I think he made a mistake leaving but people holding that against him are being foolish and ignoring the facts. He played a pivatol role in helping get us promotion, played well in the Premiership for us and we received £2m+ for a home product. He served his contract with us and when he returns to play against us (probably in the Premiership) he shouldn't be at the end of any abuse from us... although, he probably will.
21d9
Freddy Kurz
25-04-2006, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Strathclyde Eagle
If we go up I'd be very interested to see what the player playing in Wayne's position contributes in terms of goals and assists. Wayne's supporters are very keen to mention the number of assists he got, yet gloss over his 0% strike rate in the top flight.
Why can't you just appreciate a player's contribution to the club for what it was instead of trying to make a big argument about it? What
on earth does anyone want to gloss over anything about the player?
Why do we need to take sides about our own players? Let's just be
thankful that Routledge played for us during our promotion season,
when he DID score half a dozen goals! Why not be glad he DID
make all those assists for us when we were in the Premier League?
He was a product of Palace's Academy, and as such, why not take
a pride in what he did? I feel exactly the same about him as I
did about other great players we produced including Johnny Byrne,
Kenny Sansom, Ian Wright etc. etc. I just hope he can go on and
make a success of his professional career as the others did.
Of course, from an academic point of view it will be interesting to
see what contribution the player (or players) who replace Wayne
make to the team, although we should remind ourselves that as
yet a natural successor to him has yet to be found, now that
Tyrone Berry has moved on. Ironically, the two wingers
we have signed to replace Routledge are both right-footed
yet both prefer to play (and play better) on the left!
Originally posted by David Amsalem
Not at all. Its a fair observation. From what I've seen (and read on here) most people, in my experience, who don't rate him, didn't like him as a person neither despite not meeting him.
You're an obvious exception, although your original post shows you don't hold him in the highest regard.
Routledge did good for us. I think he made a mistake leaving but people holding that against him are being foolish and ignoring the facts. He played a pivatol role in helping get us promotion, played well in the Premiership for us and we received £2m+ for a home product. He served his contract with us and when he returns to play against us (probably in the Premiership) he shouldn't be at the end of any abuse from us... although, he probably will.
I dont think I'm an exception, I've seen nothing from anyone suggesting they dont like him, they may or may not who cares? ints not central to the discussion.
He will get abuse I guess as the majority of players that leave in less than ideal circumstances usually do, add the fact that he threw his Palace shirt on the ground...
Lets face it there are many who still havent forgiven Ian Wright for kissing his Arsenal badge despite his apologies and the passing of time and he contributed a hell of a lot more to this club than WR.
David Amsalem
25-04-2006, 03:39 PM
Like I say, in your experience, its different. But in mine, the people who don't rate WR as a footballer, don't like him as a person neither. I can only give comments based on my experiences and not yours.
As for throwing the Palace shirt, thats means nothing. If he did a shit, then wiped his ass with it, fair enough.
Justin
25-04-2006, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by kolinkins
Name a better winger than Wayne who has played for Palace in the last 6 years.
Name a better winger that has played for Palace in the last 25 years?
PalaceMonkey
25-04-2006, 03:48 PM
Does Lombardo count as a winger?
John Salako was better IMO too.
Justin
25-04-2006, 03:53 PM
Lombardo played in midfield for us really although I accept he is a winger and so concede he was better.
I had also overlooked Salako but I would rate Routledge higher. Sadly Salako had always been overshadowed by Wright and Bright and was just starting to show how good he could have been just before, during and after that England tour of NZ when he got injured. After that sadly I dont think he ever scaled the heights he was capable of before the injury.
My analysis of Wayne of course is based on his potential but cant think of any winger we have had who had the impact he had in the top division bar Lombardo.
Lords Eagle
25-04-2006, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by kolinkins
I still think we wont sign a player (whatever the age and position) as good as Wayne. We might sign someone as effective as him, but no player as good as him in the forseeable future.
Not an awful lot of good signing somebody who's good but not effective, there are ball jugglers out there with fantastic skills but they wouldn't make a player. I too believe WR was very overrated. As for the question of why Reich & Jobi aren't playing in the premier, the same reason as AJ, they play for us.
Originally posted by Justin
Name a better winger that has played for Palace in the last 25 years?
John Salako
Lombardo
Jobi
Kolkka
Reich
Eddie McGoldrick
Freddy Kurz
25-04-2006, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by limited_edition
Hang on, I've heard this argument before. Albeit from another club. The Wet Sham side that came down 3 years ago on paper was a better side than the one now. Joe Cole, Defoe, Carrick etc. The players brought in their places weren't better like for like replacements, but you can't argue that Wet Sham are a better team, a better unit now. With the right astute signings and coaching we can eventually turn young players into top players. Eg look at Harewood's development. Who'd have thought he'd be such and effective striker at Prem level back in his Forest and early Wet Sham days ? Didn't help when he was employed wide right, I know. You could make the same argument for AJ who was a none to prolific winger-cum-striker in his Brum days bought in to replace a pretty potent striker in the time in Clint.
You forget that we developed our young players like Ben and Wayne without the benefit of an Academy. Well, we've got one now, so I expect us to keep up, if not better, our record of bringing young players through. Who knows what will happen to Victor Moses in a few years time ? Stop being so bloody miserable about Palace. I thought that was posed to be my job !
Excuse me, limited_edition but what makes you think "we developed our young players like Ben and Wayne without the benefit of an Academy"?
I have team-sheets for Palace Academy U17 and U19 games going back
to the season 2000/01 clearly figuring both Ben Watson and Wayne
Routledge SEVERAL TIMES! Ask anybody who attended the games
at either the Crystal Palace Sports Centre or the Beckenham Training ground at the time and these facts can be verified. I'm very surp-
rised no one has told you of the major influence John Cartwright, (the
great Palace youth coach under Malcolm Allison and Terry Venables)
had in developing players like Watson and Routledge during the early days of our Academy.
2ac1
the one
25-04-2006, 04:41 PM
Even though he did make alot of assists that wasn't what usually hapenned was it. Yeah maybe 1 time out of 4 he would get the ball to AJ. Ajs was a very clinical finisher so obviously that makes Routledge look better.
It's easy to base your arguments on facts and figures but he was actually very poor when it came to crossing. Most wingers would have had double the amount of assists than he did.
And he wasn't as good as getting past players as everyone made out. Half the time he would manage to get past players but when he did he usually cocked it up. I reckon he made so many asissts because he took corners aswell even though they were crap too.
On the other hand I do think that if he improves his crossing he will become a good player. £2million is a very nice sum of money but it's in Bob Dowie's hands now isn't it. He'll never bring in anything with the potential that Routledge had so I would have preferred it if he had stayed.
Oh yeah, by the way, I rate Julian Gray much more and if we're talking about wingers I think he was our greatest loss.
Freddy Kurz
25-04-2006, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by 917L
John Salako
Lombardo
Jobi
Kolkka
Reich
Eddie McGoldrick
Did you ever watch Salako, Lombardo, McAnuff, Kolkka, Reich or
McGoldrick Between the ages of 16 and 20?
How many were holding down a regular first-team place at a Club
in the first or second-tier of the professional game?
You are trying to compare chalk with cheese 917L.
By the time Routledge had played 72 games in Div.One and
38 games in the Premier League, McAnuff (at 20) had played
just 38 games for Wimbledon in Div.One. He is now 25 and
has yet to play a single game in the Premier League.
By the time McGoldrick joined Palace, aged 24, he had played
all of his football in the lower Leagues for Northampton Town.
It took Salako two years longer than Routledge to hold down
a regular first-team place.
Kolkka was a much later developer than Routledge and had
played only 17 games for a lesser Finnish team by the age
of 21 and was 30 when he signed for Palace and by then
had played 249 games at senior level, hardly a fair comparison
with Wayne!
Reich was 20 before he broke into the Kaiserlautern team.
I have no information on Lombardo.
From the above (with the exception of Lombardo)
none of the players you listed managed the achievements
in the game attained by Routledge at an equivalent age,
and we can only conjecture how good he can become
over the next three or four years. Until such time has
elapsed a true comparison of his merit with the other
players is simply impossible!
Velocity
25-04-2006, 05:05 PM
Whether Routledge deserved to play 38 games in the Premier League is another question now isnt it.
kolinkins
25-04-2006, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Freddy Kurz
Did you ever watch Salako, Lombardo, McAnuff, Kolkka, Reich or
McGoldrick Between the ages of 16 and 20?
How many were holding down a regular first-team place at a Club
in the first or second-tier of the professional game?
You are trying to compare chalk with cheese 917L.
By the time Routledge had played 72 games in Div.One and
38 games in the Premier League, McAnuff (at 20) had played
just 38 games for Wimbledon in Div.One. He is now 25 and
has yet to play a single game in the Premier League.
By the time McGoldrick joined Palace, aged 24, he had played
all of his football in the lower Leagues for Northampton Town.
It took Salako two years longer than Routledge to hold down
a regular first-team place.
Kolkka was a much later developer than Routledge and had
played only 17 games for a lesser Finnish team by the age
of 21 and was 30 when he signed for Palace and by then
had played 249 games at senior level, hardly a fair comparison
with Wayne!
Reich was 20 before he broke into the Kaiserlautern team.
I have no information on Lombardo.
From the above (with the exception of Lombardo)
none of the players you listed managed the achievements
in the game attained by Routledge at an equivalent age,
and we can only conjecture how good he can become
over the next three or four years. Until such time has
elapsed a true comparison of his merit with the other
players is simply impossible!
Freddy on form!
Originally posted by Freddy Kurz
Did you ever watch Salako, Lombardo, McAnuff, Kolkka, Reich or
McGoldrick Between the ages of 16 and 20?
How many were holding down a regular first-team place at a Club
in the first or second-tier of the professional game?
You are trying to compare chalk with cheese 917L.
I wasnt comparing anything, the question posed was name any better wingers in the last 25 years.
That was my answer.
If you dont agree fine, thats your opinion, but dont try and twist the question to suit your own argument.
Justin
25-04-2006, 05:38 PM
I still disagree with you, even on your terms. How many decent games have Jobi (who I like), Reich and Kolkka had between them? Including Reich frankly ridicules your whole analysis as well.
My point however was of all wingers at our club over the last 25 years he has been the best and most valuable. Of course you should take his age into account when deciding this.
Originally posted by Justin
I still disagree with you, even on your terms. How many decent games have Jobi (who I like), Reich and Kolkka had between them? Including Reich frankly ridicules your whole analysis as well.
My point however was of all wingers at our club over the last 25 years he has been the best and most valuable. Of course you should take his age into account when deciding this.
Jobi has had a large proportion of good games, hence his goalscoring record and the fact that he is likely to be runner up in this seasons player of the year.
So you seriously think he was better than
Salako, Lombardo and McGoldrick?
His overall contribution falls way short of these players in terms of goals assists and general team play.
Freddy Kurz
25-04-2006, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by the one
Even though he did make alot of assists that wasn't what usually hapenned was it. Yeah maybe 1 time out of 4 he would get the ball to AJ. Ajs was a very clinical finisher so obviously that makes Routledge look better.
It's easy to base your arguments on facts and figures but he was actually very poor when it came to crossing. Most wingers would have had double the amount of assists than he did.
And he wasn't as good as getting past players as everyone made out. Half the time he would manage to get past players but when he did he usually cocked it up. I reckon he made so many asissts because he took corners aswell even though they were crap too.
On the other hand I do think that if he improves his crossing he will become a good player. £2million is a very nice sum of money but it's in Bob Dowie's hands now isn't it. He'll never bring in anything with the potential that Routledge had so I would have preferred it if he had stayed.
Oh yeah, by the way, I rate Julian Gray much more and if we're talking about wingers I think he was our greatest loss.
Your assertion that"most wingers would have had double the amount
of assists that he (Routledge) did" is total nonsense since it simply
isn't borne out by the 2004/5 Premier League facts! Indeed up
to December, Routledge had more goal assists than any other
Premier League winger.
Just because you are totally prejudiced against a player doesn't
mean that you can distort the facts in order to suit your argu-
ment!
Having watched the game for many years, I have observed that
there is a tendency for fans to look only for the good things in
favourite players and all the bad things done by the players they
most dislike. A disliked player may have worked his socks
off for 89 minutes and remain unnoticed, but woe betide that man
if he puts a foot wrong just once. The people who have always
had it in for him will be down on that player like a ton of bricks.
Contrast that with the player who is the darling of the fans! He
will be able to miss a cartload of goals without a murmur but if
he happens to be in the right place at the right time and
scores a goal with his @rse all his past mistakes will be for-
given and he will be lauded to the skies!
How hard it is for fans to assess and judge players in an un-
biased and objective way.
I happen to think Palace were a much more balanced and
dangerous unit with Gray and Routledge on opposite wings
and with Shipperley alongside Johnson as target-man.
Sadly, both McAnuff and Reich are right-footed yet prefer
playing wide left, and neither has shown they are better
than Routledge when playing wide right.
205a
Originally posted by Freddy Kurz
doesn't
mean that you can distort the facts in order to suit your argu-
ment!
A fine statement after thats exactly what you did in order to suit your own argument!
Freddy Kurz
25-04-2006, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by 917L
A fine statement after thats exactly what you did in order to suit your own argument!
Please explain where I have distorted any facts?
limited_edition
25-04-2006, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Freddy Kurz
Excuse me, limited_edition but what makes you think "we developed our young players like Ben and Wayne without the benefit of an Academy"?
I have team-sheets for Palace Academy U17 and U19 games going back
to the season 2000/01 clearly figuring both Ben Watson and Wayne
Routledge SEVERAL TIMES! Ask anybody who attended the games
at either the Crystal Palace Sports Centre or the Beckenham Training ground at the time and these facts can be verified. I'm very surp-
rised no one has told you of the major influence John Cartwright, (the
great Palace youth coach under Malcolm Allison and Terry Venables)
had in developing players like Watson and Routledge during the early days of our Academy. I meant full Academy status. Which I believe, is what we got last week with the inflatable dome, all weather pitch etc we got last week at the CP National Sports Centre. Dowie has been saying that we lag behind other clubs with our facilities. Yes, I'm fully aware we've had a great track record of bringing through youngsters, but the Wet Sham mafia influenced press think their club has the monopoly on bringing through kids, when other clubs like ourselves do a pretty good job too.
Originally posted by Freddy Kurz
Please explain where I have distorted any facts?
The question was asked 'name any better Palce wingers in the last 25 years'
I answered
Lombardo, McGoldrick, Jobi, Salako, Kolkka, Reich.
You then chose to ignore whether they were better or not and suggest that I had not compared like for like (due to age and experience) and used the 'chalk and cheese' analogy.
No one asked, name a better Palce winger aged 18 at Palace in the last 25 years did they?
You chose to distort the question in order to suit your own argument.
Ardent Eagle Forever
25-04-2006, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by kolinkins
Wayne was a MASSIVE loss for CPFC and he cannot be replaced. No player as good as him will join us.
That Wolves game was magic for Wayne. Good finish as well.
Spurs and Pompey don't seem to think much of him!!!
limited_edition
25-04-2006, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by 917L
The question was asked 'name any better Palce wingers in the last 25 years'
I answered
Lombardo, McGoldrick, Jobi, Salako, Kolkka, Reich.
You then chose to ignore whether they were better or not and suggest that I had not compared like for like (due to age and experience) and used the 'chalk and cheese' analogy.
No one asked, name a better Palce winger aged 18 at Palace in the last 25 years did they?
You chose to distort the question in order to suit your own argument. Absolutely.
Freddy Kurz
25-04-2006, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by 917L
Jobi has had a large proportion of good games, hence his goalscoring record and the fact that he is likely to be runner up in this seasons player of the year.
So you seriously think he was better than
Salako, Lombardo and McGoldrick?
His overall contribution falls way short of these players in terms of goals assists and general team play.
You are simply failing to compare like with like based on
hard facts. You are merely making a series of assertions
based entirely on your own subjective opinions!
McAnuff has played the vast majority of his games as a wide-left
player against Championship defences. Routledge played his
games as a right-winger in 38 games against Premier League
defences. There is absolutely no comparison, unless you
are trying to argue that Premier League defences are easier
to break down than those in the Championship???
Sadly Salako had only a brief career at the top level due to a major injury, and is therefore not a valid comparison.
I would certainly concede that Lombardo was a better winger
than Routledge is ever likely to become, but then few players
I've seen play for Palace over 61 years were as good as the
Italian.
McGoldrick was a very impressive right-winger, although a
much later developer than Routledge. The latter will
have to improve his goal-scoring and crossing to compare
favourably with the Irishman, but there is still time, since
Wayne is still only 21.
Freddy Kurz
25-04-2006, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by limited_edition
Absolutely.
Can you explain yourself in greater detail???
Originally posted by Freddy Kurz
You are simply failing to compare like with like based on
hard facts. You are merely making a series of assertions
based entirely on your own subjective opinions!
Sadly Salako had only a brief career at the top level due to a major injury, and is therefore not a valid comparison.
I would certainly concede that Lombardo was a better winger
than Routledge is ever likely to become, but then few players
I've seen play for Palace over 61 years were as good as the
Italian.
McGoldrick was a very impressive right-winger, although a
much later developer than Routledge. The latter will
have to improve his goal-scoring and crossing to compare
favourably with the Irishman, but there is still time, since
Wayne is still only 21.
All opinions are subjective.
I've neer stated anything on here is other than my opinion.
So you now concede that Lombardo and McGoldrick were better.
Salako's career spanned 15 years around 400 games and over 70 goals, I think that suggests he was pretty good, dont you? and he was very good in a Palace shirt, on top of which he was a full England international, something I very much doubt Routledge ever will be. And you still suggest that Routledge is better than him?
Perhaps you should actually read the origianl questionthat was asked. You will notice it doesnt say 'name a better winger at the same stage of their career development'
Hence my answer.
1fad
Crunchie
25-04-2006, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by Freddy Kurz
Sadly Salako had only a brief career at the top level due to a major injury, and is therefore not a valid comparison.
But so has Wayne, hardly an established career at the top so i think that it is a very good comparison.
Salako had acheived more and was at the time of his injury a much better player. He could cross, assist and score a few good goals too. He had to play up front a few times too and did a bloody good job.
I also think Jobi has had the misfortune not to be able to be able to play with a Target Man.
However having said all that Routledge was an excellent player and we do miss him alot. I feel would should try and get him back if we were promoted. He is a quality player.
However Jobi is not far behind (if at all) but they are different players. Routledge is certainly more skillful but i like Jobi's directness.
I do not underestimate Routledges contribution as he was an excellent player and certainly worth more than the 2m we got for him, however he is not in the same class (yet) as the Taylors, Rogers, Salakos and Lombardos.
However Reich, is not in the same class as Routledge.
Freddy Kurz
25-04-2006, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by 917L
The question was asked 'name any better Palce wingers in the last 25 years'
I answered
Lombardo, McGoldrick, Jobi, Salako, Kolkka, Reich.
You then chose to ignore whether they were better or not and suggest that I had not compared like for like (due to age and experience) and used the 'chalk and cheese' analogy.
No one asked, name a better Palce winger aged 18 at Palace in the last 25 years did they?
You chose to distort the question in order to suit your own argument.
No one yet knows how good Routledge is likely to become, but he
made an exceptional contribution to Palace during his brief career
with the club, and my sole reason for joining in the discussion on
this thread was to try to defend that contribution against those
who sought to vilify and downgrade it and him. What he was
able to achieve by the age of 20 was quite exceptional, and I
wish him every success in the future.
Comparisons between players of different periods are always
difficult to make, but it is still possible to make an assess-
ment of a player's future development based upon what he
has already achieved in his formative years, which is why I
am fairly optimistic about Routledge, provided he continues
to work hard at his game (and Dowie had not complaints
about him in this respect while he was with Palace).
If he can improve his delivery into the box and shooting,
there is absolutely no reason why he can't exceed the
accomplishments of most of the former Palace players
with whom he has been adversely compared on this
thread, with the exception of Lombardo, who was
simply world class.
Justin
25-04-2006, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by 917L
The question was asked 'name any better Palce wingers in the last 25 years'
I answered
Lombardo, McGoldrick, Jobi, Salako, Kolkka, Reich.
You then chose to ignore whether they were better or not and suggest that I had not compared like for like (due to age and experience) and used the 'chalk and cheese' analogy.
No one asked, name a better Palce winger aged 18 at Palace in the last 25 years did they?
You chose to distort the question in order to suit your own argument.
The likes of Eddie and Salako are subjective and I accept open to debate. I would argue that I would rate Wayne higher than either of these though.
Please tell me though how many good games Reich has had for Palace though? On the basis that you still claim he was/is a better player for Palace than Wayne I would suggest any analysis you make on the relative merits of players is seen to be highly flawed.
Originally posted by Freddy Kurz
Comparisons between players of different periods are always
difficult to make,
Posibly, there is no doubt however Wayne Routledge is not and never will be anywhere near the quality of say
Lombardo, Peter Taylor or Don Rogers irrespective of when they played.
Velocity
25-04-2006, 06:52 PM
I would rather have Pennant if we went up than Routledge
bigee
25-04-2006, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Velocity
I would rather have Pennant if we went up than Routledge
or Lennon..
Freddy Kurz
25-04-2006, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by 917L
All opinions are subjective.
I've neer stated anything on here is other than my opinion.
So you now concede that Lombardo and McGoldrick were better.
Salako's career spanned 15 years around 400 games and over 70 goals, I think that suggests he was pretty good, dont you? and he was very good in a Palace shirt, on top of which he was a full England international, something I very much doubt Routledge ever will be. And you still suggest that Routledge is better than him?
Perhaps you should actually read the origianl questionthat was asked. You will notice it doesnt say 'name a better winger at the same stage of their career development'
Hence my answer.
Why do you totally ignore Routledge's 38 games with Palace
in the Premier League as if they never happened? Despite
his injury with 'Spurs, he is still thought by Harry Redknapp,
(a reasonable judge) to be good enough to play in crucial
games in the Premier League for Portsmouth.
The great majority of Salako's games (due to his cruciate
ligament injury) were played at the lower levels of the
Football League which is why the comparison with
Routledge is invidious. Had Salako not been so
badly injured against Leeds then I feel sure he
would have gone on to become an established
England player, but fate ruled otherwise.
Time will tell whether Routledge can scale
the heights reached by Salako. Perhaps
the greatest obstacle to his progress to the
top is his diminutive stature.
Have never seriously compared Routledge with
Lombardo, who was simply world class, although
I haven't ruled out Routledge becoming a better
winger than McGoldrick, but he will need to
greatly improve his crossing and shooting
to achieve this.
Velocity
25-04-2006, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by bigee
or Lennon..
Yes good one! Then maybe Joaquin and Robben while we are at it!
23bf
Freddy Kurz
25-04-2006, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by 917L
Posibly, there is no doubt however Wayne Routledge is not and never will be anywhere near the quality of say
Lombardo, Peter Taylor or Don Rogers irrespective of when they played.
I wouldn't argue against Lombardo, Taylor or Rogers, but they were
very exceptional players in their different eras.
But that still doesn't invalidate the contribution Routledge made in
his all-too-brief career with the club. Oddly enough, none of
the players you mention, unlike Routledge, ever achieved a prom-
otion with Palace, although Taylor was in our FA Cup semi-Final
team which lost 0-2 to Southampton at Stamford Bridge!
Originally posted by Freddy Kurz
Why do you totally ignore Routledge's 38 games with Palace
in the Premier League as if they never happened? Despite
his injury with 'Spurs, he is still thought by Harry Redknapp,
(a reasonable judge) to be good enough to play in crucial
games in the Premier League for Portsmouth.
Are you obsessed?
For about the 5th time, a question was asked, which was: name any better wingers at Palace in the last 25 years.
I gave my answer which is of course my opinion and not a fact.
You seem unable to accept that others are entitled to opinions.
Yes Harry thinks so much of him he can only get in the side from the bench
limited_edition
25-04-2006, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by Freddy Kurz
Can you explain yourself in greater detail??? This quote from 917k says it all for me: For about the 5th time, a question was asked, which was: name any better wingers at Palace in the last 25 years.
You changed the parameters of the debate to suit an answer of a question he didn't even ask. 917k didn't ask in his words: name a better Palce winger aged 18 at Palace in the last 25 years did they?
And I still agree with him that Salako did better than Routledge as a winger in a Palace shirt. He could use both feet, was better defensively, performed for about 2-3 seasons consistently in the Prem/old Div 1 and played for England. When Wayne can do all the above, he will be a better player than John in his early days.
LLCOOLSTEVE
25-04-2006, 10:06 PM
No way are McGoldrick, Jobi, Kolkka, or Reich better than Wayne.
Justy C
25-04-2006, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by Selhurst300
Recently watched our season review DVD from a couple of years ago and it was really strking what the contribution was from Wayne and Julian tearing down the flanks. Something we really miss today and possibly why we have to play hoof ball.
:lux: Exactly!
Kolinkins - he was/is quality, and its a massive shame we couldn't hold on to him as we'd be a lot closer to Sheffield United (and his career would be so much better) if he'd stayed.
But to mention him next to Lombardo and Jansen? No. He's got some to go yet before he gets there.
limited_edition
25-04-2006, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by LLCOOLSTEVE
No way are McGoldrick, Jobi, Kolkka, or Reich better than Wayne. No way is Wayne better than Salako nor Lombardo.
A Wooden Fish On Wheels
25-04-2006, 10:28 PM
Six pages of shit about Wayne Routledge again. Jesus. Still, at least it is in the right forum this time.
Justy C
25-04-2006, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by limited_edition
And I still agree with him that Salako did better than Routledge as a winger in a Palace shirt. He could use both feet, was better defensively, performed for about 2-3 seasons consistently in the Prem/old Div 1 and played for England. When Wayne can do all the above, he will be a better player than John in his early days.
Well put argument. Even though Wayne isn't as good as what Salad was I'd still take him back (and Julian) in a flash. Just because he had a look elsewhere doesn't mean that he doesn't care about Palace.....or would may be interested in coming back.
Originally posted by LLCOOLSTEVE
No way are McGoldrick, Jobi, Kolkka, or Reich better than Wayne.
In Reichs case he hasnt layed enough games and doesnt seem to be a Dowie favourite, so he may not succeed here. (though I prefer watching him to WR)
Jobi has already exceeded any contribution by Wayne in a season (though in a division lower when compared to last season)
McGoldick was a better player (not in the ball jugling stakes though), he contributed far more to the team in general, and at least he could cross a ball.
Kolkka was never given a fair go by Dowie IMO but I believe hin to be a better player (though his Palce contribution ended up being limited).
And as I mentioned Taylor and Rogers earlier I should apologise to Vince Hilaire who I omitted
Justin
26-04-2006, 07:00 AM
Reich wasnt a favourite at Derby either. He has had less than perhaps 5 good games for us - how you can compare him to WR is beyond me. You also admit that Kolkka had limited impact at Palace. Looks like you have already reduced your intial list by 40%!
Agreed re Tayloe and Hilaire- hence the 25 year cut off
Gooders
26-04-2006, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by LLCOOLSTEVE
No way are McGoldrick, Jobi, Kolkka, or Reich better than Wayne.
As a winger? McGoldrick was far more effective. Don't confuse stepovers and flicks with effectiveness.
I agree about the others though - Kolkka didn't have the impact he should have; Jobi is not bad on a going day but they come too seldom; Reich has all the ability but a problem in his mind I think, just like Julian Gray.
Gooders
26-04-2006, 07:26 AM
Wayne's days at Spuzz are already numbered I reckon - no way will he displace Lennon now.
If Pompey stay up, I reckon he'll end up there next season.
kolinkins
26-04-2006, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by Gooders
Wayne's days at Spuzz are already numbered I reckon - no way will he displace Lennon now.
If Pompey stay up, I reckon he'll end up there next season.
Gooders – Wayne’s days at Spurs were numbered when Arnesen left. Lennon was a Jol signing, Wayne was an Arnesen signing. I happen to think that if Wayne didn’t get injured, and then if he wasn’t asked to play centrally, he would be a regular there.
Pompey love him in his sub role and he has been very effective for them coming off the bench.
Palace fans dislike or annoyance with Wayne was for one of two (sometimes both) reasons – they watched him for 90 minutes and saw him give the ball away, and his contract situation. As for the former reason – Spurs fans who watch Lennon week-in week-out have the same gripe about him, and as for the latter reason, blame the club. People should remember that the way a lot of fans are judging Lennon this season based on highlights was similar to the way non-Palace fans were viewing Wayne last season. The difference between the two is that Lennon is very fortunate to be part of a top 4 side, Wayne was very unlucky to be part of a bottom 3 side.
2050
Originally posted by kolinkins
Gooders – Wayne’s days at Spurs were numbered when Arnesen left. Lennon was a Jol signing, Wayne was an Arnesen signing.
They were both signed when Jol was manager, are you suggesting he let Arnesen sign someone he didnt want?
limited_edition
26-04-2006, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by kolinkins
As for the former reason – Spurs fans who watch Lennon week-in week-out have the same gripe about him, and as for the latter reason, blame the club. People should remember that the way a lot of fans are judging Lennon this season based on highlights was similar to the way non-Palace fans were viewing Wayne last season. The difference between the two is that Lennon is very fortunate to be part of a top 4 side, Wayne was very unlucky to be part of a bottom 3 side. A lot of people have longer memories than just what happened this season. Lennon has been a promising young player since his Leeds days. You forget he broke into the Leeds side in the Premiership in 2003 aged 16. I remember all the fuss was about kids like James Milner back then, but I thought Lennon was just as good if not better. And Lennon didn't exactly play in a top 3 side in his Leeds days. He's more versatile than Wayne in that he can go inside or outside a defender and can play in a more central attacking role.
Crunchie
26-04-2006, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by kolinkins
Palace fans dislike or annoyance with Wayne was for one of two (sometimes both) reasons – they watched him for 90 minutes and saw him give the ball away, and his contract situation. As for the former reason – Spurs fans who watch Lennon week-in week-out have the same gripe about him, and as for the latter reason, blame the club.
Most of my mates around where i live are Spurs fans and most take the opposite view that maybe Lennon should be a surprise inclusion into the England squad. They dont moan about him loosing the ball, like you say.
If Routledge was better than Lennon he would be playing end of. Who signed him is irrelevant.
Dont get me wrong, i think Routledge was an excellent player and definitely in the top 5 wingers to play for palace in the last 25 years.
But he isnt as good as you say and the argument really isnt based on fact, like you are trying to make out, more hearsay. But your opinion is fine.
Just like Freddys reason that Routledge couldn't cross or lay off to a target man hindered his potential, but Jobi hasnt had that opportunity either.
kolinkins
26-04-2006, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by 917L
They were both signed when Jol was manager, are you suggesting he let Arnesen sign someone he didnt want?
Yes
Originally posted by kolinkins
Yes
Why would he do that?
What evidence is there to support that as a fact?
Gooders
27-04-2006, 06:36 AM
kolinkins posts confirm what people like myself (and C_Block) have been telling you all for ages - Wayne's move to Spuzz was done and dusted a long time before the "contract fiasco" at Palace emerged as a smokescreen.
He was never going to stay.
Freddy Kurz
27-04-2006, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by Gooders
As a winger? McGoldrick was far more effective. Don't confuse stepovers and flicks with effectiveness.
I agree about the others though - Kolkka didn't have the impact he should have; Jobi is not bad on a going day but they come too seldom; Reich has all the ability but a problem in his mind I think, just like Julian Gray.
McGoldrick joined Palace from Northampton Town aged 24, made an
improvement with Palace, and became the finished article as a winger
with Arsenal and International experience.
Routledge made his full Palace debut while still 16, became a regular
gone out first-teamer the following season, played 44 games in Div 1
during our promotion season, scoring six goals, and appeared in all
the play-offs by the age of 19. By the age of 20 he had played
38 games in the Premier League, and became an automatic choice
for Peter Taylor's England U21 squad. Since recovering from a
long-term injury sustained in 'Spurs' pre-season training, he has
gone out on loan and has been figuring regularly as a sub for
Portsmouth in their battle for Premier League survival yet he
is still only 21!
By that age, McGoldrick had only ever played in lower League football,
and I wonder whether anyone has any first-hand information as to
how he was performing in his formative days at Northampton Town?
If he had been as good as Routledge, wouldn't he have been snap-
ped up earlier by a bigger team?
Gooders, surely you must agree that it would have taken McGoldrick
several years of trial and error, success and heartbreak to have
reached the stage where a manager like Steve Coppell decided
to take a gamble to sign him at the age of 24? As it turned out
he proved an inspired signing, but by the time he moved on to
Arsenal he had developed into an even better player under the
experienced tutelage of a great ex-England and Manchester Utd,
winger. It was no accident that Salako achieved England
status as a winger while playing under Coppell.
There is little doubt that if Routledge receives similar sound
guidance while he is playing in the Premier League he has
every chance of developing into an even more "effective"
players than McGoldrick. England U21 coach, Peter
Taylor, himself a distinguished International winger will
also be of great help to him.
Many of the things("step-overs & flicks") you and others
criticise Routledge for, will, if deemed unnecessary,
be eliminated from his game - that is what happens
in the cut and thrust of modern competitive football
which, increasingly,has become the survival of the
fittest.
If I may allowed to be critical of the way some BBSers
approach the assessment of players, it is that they
too often take early impressions of their performances
and see these as fixed and unchangeable, not recog-
nising that all players, especially young ones, are
in a continual state of development, and as such are
capable of either great improvement and/or decline.
For players to improve or even "mark time" they must
continually work at their game. Complacency is no
option if they want to get on in modern professional
football. The must have great natural aptitude
and need to be both self-motivated and have the
encouragement, assistance and advice of skilled,
experienced coaches and managers.
Dowie was always fulsome in his praise of Routledge
as a player and of his work on the training ground,
so there seems little wrong with his motivation.
20e0
Gooders
27-04-2006, 08:01 AM
You can be as critical as you like Freddy, that's what these discussions are all about.
However, if we're talking about the "assessment of players", my point would be that we are not comparing like with like, and this is amply demonstrated by what you have posted.
What LLCOOLSTEVE said was "no way is McGoldrick better than Wayne". That is a ridiculous statement.
You can bang on all you like about potential, the facts of Eddie McGoldricks career are there in the record books for all to see.
The facts of young Wayne's career are that he has been a virtual ever-present in a team relegated from the Premiership; unable to hold a place in a mediocre but improving Premiership team; on loan at another Premiership club struggling against relegation where he is seen as a good option on the bench. Well whoopee.
When Wayne has career stats that get remotely close to those of McGoldrick or Salako, come back and tell me what a wonderful player he has been (and I daresay I'll agree with you).
He has done nothing yet. I hope and think that he also knows that - otherwise the great danger is that by the time he's 28 he'll still have done nothing of note, because the faint praise lulled him into a false sense of security.
I can see why the youngsters make more of the ability (or potential) of some players than is truly justified - clearly they're of a similar age and these guys are icons to them - but I'm stunned to see a man of your experience falling into the same trap.
No wonder some of these youngsters become arrogant and don't seem to have the hunger or desire that one would expect of people who still have everything to prove. They're on a bloody pedestal before they've achieved anything.
Freddy Kurz
27-04-2006, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Gooders
You can be as critical as you like Freddy, that's what these discussions are all about.
However, if we're talking about the "assessment of players", my point would be that we are not comparing like with like, and this is amply demonstrated by what you have posted.
What LLCOOLSTEVE said was "no way is McGoldrick better than Wayne". That is a ridiculous statement.
You can bang on all you like about potential, the facts of Eddie McGoldricks career are there in the record books for all to see.
The facts of young Wayne's career are that he has been a virtual ever-present in a team relegated from the Premiership; unable to hold a place in a mediocre but improving Premiership team; on loan at another Premiership club struggling against relegation where he is seen as a good option on the bench. Well whoopee.
When Wayne has career stats that get remotely close to those of McGoldrick or Salako, come back and tell me what a wonderful player he has been (and I daresay I'll agree with you).
He has done nothing yet. I hope and think that he also knows that - otherwise the great danger is that by the time he's 28 he'll still have done nothing of note, because the faint praise lulled him into a false sense of security.
I can see why the youngsters make more of the ability (or potential) of some players than is truly justified - clearly they're of a similar age and these guys are icons to them - but I'm stunned to see a man of your experience falling into the same trap.
No wonder some of these youngsters become arrogant and don't seem to have the hunger or desire that one would expect of people who still have everything to prove. They're on a bloody pedestal before they've achieved anything.
Why did you choose to completely airbrush out Routledge's 44 game,
6 goal contribution to our successful promotion team of 2003/4,
something Routledge critics have an odd habit of doing to help
bolster their negative case against him?
To have played a major part in a team's promotion to the
Premier League, and then to have immediately graduated
from Division One football to playing a FULL season of 38
games in the Premier League by the age of just 20 would
be considered by most objective football fans to have
been a remarkable achievement for one so young.
But not for you, who, because Palace were relegated by
a single point, seize upon this as a justification for down-
grading his performance! What a hard man you
are to satisfy, Gooders! You then go on to suggest
that because Routledge has the misfortune to get
seriously injured in a pre-season training accident
and loses his place in the 'Spurs team to another
excellent winger, that is somehow, something
to count against him, as is his move on loan to
hard-pressed Premier League Portsmouth.
The logic of your argument is that if a player,
loses his place through injury and is replaced
by another good player, or finds himself play-
ing in a Premier League team which is relegated
or is fighting against relegation that somehow
makes you a substandard player! What does
that make Andy Johnson then?
You are stating the blindingly obvious, when you argue
that Wayne has achieved nothing closely resembling
the career statistics of either Eddie McGoldrick or
or John Salako, both players I greatly admired.
All I am arguing is that at an equivalent young age,
his achievements are provably superior to both and
that given hard work, good health and reasonable
luck he could become just as "effective" a winger
as his illustrious predecessors
Originally posted by Freddy Kurz
You are stating the blindingly obvious, when you argue
that Wayne has achieved nothing closely resembling
the career statistics of either Eddie McGoldrick or
or John Salako, both players I greatly admired.
All I am arguing is that at an equivalent young age,
his achievements are provably superior to both and
that given good health and reasonable luck he
could become just as "effective" a winger as his
illustrious predecessors.
Para 1. Hallelujah!!
Par 2. Thats the whole point (again) you changed the parameters to suit your own argument.
Freddy Kurz
27-04-2006, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by 917L
Para 1. Hallelujah!!
Par 2. Thats the whole point (again) you changed the parameters to suit your own argument.
A case of the the pot calling the kettle black 917L?
Why do so many people in the anti-Routledge camp choose
to ignore his contribution to our 2003/4 promotion season?
Originally posted by Freddy Kurz
A case of the the pot calling the kettle black 917L?
Why do so many people in the anti-Routledge camp choose
to ignore his contribution to our 2003/4 promotion season?
Because the discussion started when someone asked a specific question, which I answered.
You have since repeatedly chosen to ignore the question originally asked and answered a question that has never been asked as it suits your own agenda.
Seeing as I have only answered the original question you pot kettle black claim is entirely without foundation.
11cd
PalaceMonkey
27-04-2006, 09:59 AM
I agree with 917L, the two main pro-routledgers keep changing what they are saying.
Freddy Kurz
27-04-2006, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by PalaceMonkey
I agree with 917L, the two main pro-routledgers keep changing what they are saying.
In my case because the anti-Routledgers never answer the questions
I keep putting to them! Why? Because the facts I keep
quoting are unchallengeable! Since you are clearly volunteering
to become one of their disciples, why don't you have a go at trying
to prove me wrong?
PalaceMonkey
27-04-2006, 10:14 AM
Because we've answered questions that have been put to us!!
And then you change the question because you don't like the answer
Freddy Kurz
27-04-2006, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by PalaceMonkey
Because we've answered questions that have been put to us!!
And then you change the question because you don't like the answer
If you and your playmates still refuse to answer my questions,
please consider this discussion at a close.......
PalaceMonkey
27-04-2006, 10:20 AM
Argh!!!
Okay, please tell me your specific question again, and when I answer please don't change the parameters of the question.
sydnsteve
27-04-2006, 10:26 AM
Can't be bothered to go through 6 pages on WR. I'd certainly rather have Jobi myself, but that's a matter of personal preference. Routledge has a lot of skill, but the fact is he is not used by Portsmouth, a club desperate for points, unless they are in trouble, so he is clearly not rated even there as first team material. And all he did when he came on vs Arsenal was to give the ball away. I actually liked WR, and wanted him to stay, but overhyping him by saying we'll never sign anyone as good as him is really silly. He is at the moment unproven, as he is not good enough to displace Lenon at Spurs (hardly a disgrace as he's one of the best RWs in the country), and is not considered good enough for the starting line up by a struggling Pompey side. Those are the facts, how he will develop is completely unknown, but there must be as much chance of him being a disappointment as of being a success.
How about letting that be the end of this tiresome WR debate?
Originally posted by Freddy Kurz
If you and your playmates still refuse to answer my questions,
please consider this discussion at a close.......
You never asked any questions.
:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Freddy Kurz
27-04-2006, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by PalaceMonkey
Argh!!!
Okay, please tell me your specific question again, and when I answer please don't change the parameters of the question.
Amr now watching a superb DVD "The March of the Penguins"
and refuse to waste my time on this kind of sterile argument.
Respectfully suggest that you don't waste yours.
I'm a Palace fan, always have been always will be and
have no wish to get embroiled in stupid, long-winded
debates that are going nowhere, with other Palace
fans. Let us all agree to disagree and move on
please.
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