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chatham_eagle
27-05-2008, 03:51 PM
Tis a rather large article, with graphs n tings, so will just provide the link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7417746.stm

Freddy Kurz
27-05-2008, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by chatham_eagle
Tis a rather large article, with graphs n tings, so will just provide the link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7417746.stm

Excellent piece of research, which clearly shows why Rngland was
knocked out of Euro 2008 and why, unless a major increase in the
pool of English players playing regularly in the Premier League is
not soon achieved, England's chances of reaching the finals of
either the European or World Cups will continue to decline for
the forseeable future.

Thanks chatham_eagle and the bbc.

CPFC87
27-05-2008, 05:20 PM
What a bunch of Arsenal are- 0.34 players fielded on average. Pricks.

palacemaniac
27-05-2008, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Freddy Kurz
Excellent piece of research, which clearly shows why Rngland was
knocked out of Euro 2008 .

How do you explain we made it to 3 consecutive 1/4 finals with more or less the same group of players then...The manager's to blame not foreign players...

UEAgle
27-05-2008, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by CPFC87
What a bunch of Arsenal are- 0.34 players fielded on average. Pricks.

Why? They produce as many English players as the rest of the big teams - they just often move on (Cole, Bentley, Sidwell etc).

Plus who can blame them for buying foreign so often - they got most of their first team for the same price Spurs paid for Darren Bent.

Freddy Kurz
27-05-2008, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by palacemaniac
How do you explain we made it to 3 consecutive 1/4 finals with more or less the same group of players then...The manager's to blame not foreign players...

The number of English players starting for Premier League clubs has
been progressively declining as the graph clearly shows. It's widely
accepted by top pundits that England had the best crop of players
accumulated in the national squad for the last World Cup since our
victory in 1966, but for a whole variety of reasons of which Sven
and McLaren were just one, most of the team simply did not play
individually or collectively to their full potential.

Most current England players owe their success at their respective
clubs to playing alongside several highly gifted foreigners, but once
they don an England shirt they no longer receive the benefit of top
quality overseas assistance during a match with the result that
these players tend to turn in uninspired individual and collective
performances.

I think the big gulf that exists between the best England players
and their top quality foreign League colleagues is an intellectual
one. Most England players are instinctive players while the best
overseas players add a more thoughtful content to their game.

CPFC87
27-05-2008, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by UEAgle
Why? They produce as many English players as the rest of the big teams - they just often move on (Cole, Bentley, Sidwell etc).

Plus who can blame them for buying foreign so often - they got most of their first team for the same price Spurs paid for Darren Bent.

Principal? It's meant to be an English league after all...

cj_saunders
27-05-2008, 06:05 PM
but isn't the main reason we didn't qualify for euro coz the results that happened joining the 06-07 season,(draw against Macedonia, losing away to croatia, draw against iseal in that season where was 191 English players, which was the highest in 5 years for the amount of English players playing in the prem. we only lost 2 proper games this season against russia and croatia, with the rest being wins,

Freddy Kurz
27-05-2008, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by cj_saunders
but isn't the main reason we didn't qualify for euro coz the results that happened joining the 06-07 season,(draw against Macedonia, losing away to croatia, draw against iseal in that season where was 191 English players, which was the highest in 5 years for the amount of English players playing in the prem. we only lost 2 proper games this season against russia and croatia, with the rest being wins,

The problem facing England's international team isn't just the lack of
English players playing regular Premier League football, but the lack
of quality of those players in comparison to the best foreign players
they play alongside, especially from an intellectual developmental
point of view.

Think there is a strong case for developing youth academies along
the lines of the Dutch club model, in which young footballers are
helped to develop not just as players but as rounded individuals
with as much emphasis being placed upon their intellectual
development as on their footballing prowess.

Think many of the best foreign professionals in the Premier
League have a far more scientific approach to the game
than most of their English counterparts.

SpikeyMatt
27-05-2008, 06:38 PM
English players are over-hyped, over-rated and on the whole, not very good.

Can't blame teams for buying better players abroad for less money, no matter how wrong it feels for the English league to be represented by non-English players.

All stems down to the coaching methods in this country and why we don't produce the quality of players that the Spanish, Italians, Germans and French do.

Chrissayy
27-05-2008, 07:50 PM
Is it only me who finds it slightly ironic that the England manager is foreign, and is trying to address the problem?

Skiddo
27-05-2008, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Chrissayy
Is it only me who finds it slightly ironic that the England manager is foreign, and is trying to address the problem?

Nah I've thought this as well.

Just goes to prove how messed up the whole state of the National game is.

You wonder whether the relentess pushing for the bid of the World Cup 2018 is so we can automatically qualify for the ruddy thing.

palacemaniac
27-05-2008, 08:46 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CPFC87
What a bunch of Arsenal are- 0.34 players fielded on average. Pricks. [/QUOTE
Agreed, I can't stand those bunch of mercenaries

Ralph
27-05-2008, 08:50 PM
well what would people really prefer a week to week more exciting domestic league (best in the world) or a possible slightly more successful national side??

I would probably be more excited by the start of the Premier League than the Euro's even if we had qualified.

Skiddo
27-05-2008, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Ralph
well what would people really prefer a week to week more exciting domestic league (best in the world) or a possible slightly more successful national side??

I would probably be more excited by the start of the Premier League than the Euro's even if we had qualified.

You say that but there's possible to have the right balance.

Look at the 95-96 season of the Premier League.

One of the most exciting seasons going, a real influence of foreign players were coming into the game to make it exciting and add flair, yet you still had your core English talent.

The foriegn players back then were of real quality:

Ginola
Cantona
Bergkamp
Asprilla
Gullit
Yeboah
Juninho


Yet we had homegrown talent that was equally has good:

McManaman
Gazza
Shearer
Sheringham
Adams
Le Tissier
Les Ferdinand (voted PFA Player of the Year)
Fowler (Young Player of the Year)




Back then the foreign players were always a welcome ADDITION to what was a highly talented and exciting league.

Nowadays, the foreign players are becoming replacements. You didnt get these 2-bob players the likes of Bolton, Middlesborough, Portsmouth etc, sign up who you've never heard of.

Jay_Palace
27-05-2008, 09:10 PM
It's a very complex situation. Coaching at youth level is clearly inadequate compared to our European neighbours but it's not the only reason. The talent is there in the lower leagues, but clubs do charge top dollar. I noticed earlier that Peterborough now value Joe Lewis at around 4 million, based on his call up to the full England squad.

How much does it cost to buy a proven goalscorer even from League One these days? Even more so in the Championship and the better players in this division are being valued at ridiculous prices, far in excess of comparable or even better youngsters overseas. Of course you can point to BSKYB for the inflation of prices in football and this is yet another cause.

In short, it's a load of shit and I don't see any quick fixes.

CHE
27-05-2008, 09:36 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Skiddo
[B]You say that but there's possible to have the right balance.

Look at the 95-96 season of the Premier League.

One of the most exciting seasons going, a real influence of foreign players were coming into the game to make it exciting and add flair, yet you still had your core English talent.

The foriegn players back then were of real quality:

Ginola
Cantona
Bergkamp
Asprilla
Gullit
Yeboah
Juninho


Yet we had homegrown talent that was equally has good:

McManaman
Gazza
Shearer
Sheringham
Adams
Le Tissier
Les Ferdinand (voted PFA Player of the Year)
Fowler (Young Player of the Year)



Errm equally as good? This is the problem, Le Tissier and Fowler both failed at international level, Ferdinand, Adams and Sheringham all over-rated. So that leaves three, Shearer probably as good as any on there and McManaman as well. Gullit and Gazza far better than the rest.

Skiddo
27-05-2008, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by CHE
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Skiddo
[B]You say that but there's possible to have the right balance.

Look at the 95-96 season of the Premier League.

One of the most exciting seasons going, a real influence of foreign players were coming into the game to make it exciting and add flair, yet you still had your core English talent.

The foriegn players back then were of real quality:

Ginola
Cantona
Bergkamp
Asprilla
Gullit
Yeboah
Juninho


Yet we had homegrown talent that was equally has good:

McManaman
Gazza
Shearer
Sheringham
Adams
Le Tissier
Les Ferdinand (voted PFA Player of the Year)
Fowler (Young Player of the Year)



Errm equally as good? This is the problem, Le Tissier and Fowler both failed at international level, Ferdinand, Adams and Sheringham all over-rated. So that leaves three, Shearer probably as good as any on there and McManaman as well. Gullit and Gazza far better than the rest.

Ginola and Cantona both never got the international career they should have had. But that's not the point I'm making.

For every Torres, Ronaldo & Drogba we have over here, we've also got Hossam Ghaly, Eboue, Boumsong, Kaboul and countless other no-marks.

CHE
27-05-2008, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Skiddo
Ginola and Cantona both never got the international career they should have had. But that's not the point I'm making.

For every Torres, Ronaldo & Drogba we have over here, we've also got Hossam Ghaly, Eboue, Boumsong, Kaboul and countless other no-marks.

And my point is that there are plenty of rubbish English players, who are feted as superstars and average ones world class (J Terry FF Lampard)

CHE
27-05-2008, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Skiddo
Ginola and Cantona both never got the international career they should have had. But that's not the point I'm making.

For every Torres, Ronaldo & Drogba we have over here, we've also got Hossam Ghaly, Eboue, Boumsong, Kaboul and countless other no-marks.

*****na never got the life ban and prison sentence he should have had.

jookbeard
27-05-2008, 10:06 PM
We still have about 60 odd players to pick from though dont we? and some fine centre backs , interesting article , but we have some super players, a little short up front though

Celestial Empire
27-05-2008, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by Jay_Palace
The talent is there in the lower leagues, but clubs do charge top dollar. I noticed earlier that Peterborough now value Joe Lewis at around 4 million, based on his call up to the full England squad.

How much does it cost to buy a proven goalscorer even from League One these days? Even more so in the Championship and the better players in this division are being valued at ridiculous prices, far in excess of comparable or even better youngsters overseas. Of course you can point to BSKYB for the inflation of prices in football and this is yet another cause.


So what would you prefer, that all the league clubs offer their treasures up to the holy Prem at knock-down prices, so that these wasters can grant even more preposterous wages to their under-achieving players ?

The only source of serious income smaller clubs have is player sales.

Dom303
27-05-2008, 11:31 PM
I know people don't really like Platini, but I quite like his plan to get at least 5 homegrown players in every team. In the long term it would benefit us, as of all the major leagues we have one of, if not the lowest numbers of homegrown players.

chatham_eagle
27-05-2008, 11:33 PM
I understand what people are saying about the cost of decent English players, from Championship and below standard, but maybe this is due to the "influx" of foreign players; who are availible at a far cheaper cost.

However Capello has shown his intent, by selecting a player from league one - based on his form, and I believe this is a good thing - as it may mean that players are now picked for the National squad on form, not which club they are at.

Celestial Empire
27-05-2008, 11:38 PM
The real problem is the dominance of foreign managers in the Prem - let's see some stats for those. These are the guys who insist on bringing in players from their home countries for inflated transfer fees.
Case in point: the hierarchy at Spurs have apparently turned Palace over to grab Bostock, but Juande Ramos wants his compatriate Dos Santos.
Guess who will be Ramos' favoured midfielder ?:hmph:

chatham_eagle
27-05-2008, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by Celestial Empire
The real problem is the dominance of foreign managers in the Prem - let's see some stats for those. These are the guys who insist on bringing in players from their home countries for inflated transfer fees.


Case in point: the hierarchy at Spurs have apparently turned Palace over to grab Bostock, but Juande Ramos wants his compatriate Dos Santos.
Guess who will be Ramos' favoured midfielder ?:hmph:

1st point - I'll have a look into that in the morning - should be interesting research.

About Bostock - I believe it was their "Director of football" who is French, who engineered the move.
I think people in this position have quite alot of say over signings, Bob Dowie as an example.

DJ Laz
28-05-2008, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by CHE
*****na never got the life ban and prison sentence he should have had.

*****na never got the life sentence and/or death sentence he should have had.

GodstoneEagle
28-05-2008, 12:34 AM
and Dos Santos is mexican, not to mention older and better than bostock

Jay_Palace
28-05-2008, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Celestial Empire
So what would you prefer, that all the league clubs offer their treasures up to the holy Prem at knock-down prices, so that these wasters can grant even more preposterous wages to their under-achieving players ?

The only source of serious income smaller clubs have is player sales.

Not at all, smaller clubs have every right to demand top dollar for their players from Prem clubs, bloated as they are by the big tv money. I don't begrudge that, but you have to admit that something has clearly gone wrong if you have average players are transferring for 5 or 6 million quid. It's bonkers.

Like I say, i point the finger of blame fairly and squarely at Sky for creating this mess and killing football as we knew it. It's totally upset the apple cart.