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eaglejez
11-08-2014, 11:14 AM
This is a thread for a grown up discussion of Brighton's finances. Can we keep any laughter in the LOL or Insights threads :p

I don't think their 30/6/2013 accounts have been readily looked at across the internet so I've got them and itemised some of the items in the P&L (see attached) and it throws up some interesting issues. I'm an actuary rather than an accountant so would be interested in any views from our resident bean counters and any sensible NSCer lurkers but a few things that jump out to me are:

1. just over a third of their income comes directly from ordinary ticket holders. They do pretty well on sponsorship and advertising but its difficult to see where they can go too much further increasing income from the ordinary fan ?

2. it shows how important the central payment from the Prem League is to clubs in the Championship and why the Chairmen had to vote in the EPPP thing

3. You can see why they are struggling to get players in. Their wage bill seems pretty big and needs managing I'd guess !

4. The mega big elephant in the room. The 'Administrative & operational costs' item which I've been harping on about for ages !! The 2012 accounts suggested that this was a consequence of having a 'state of the art' stadium ie they were effectively fixed overheads ! The 2013 accounts seem to confirm this since they say they are 'reasonable compared to last year' and are a bit higher due to redundancy payments ie they are here to stay ! If they are fixed overheads then that really is a big worry and would suggest the Amex could turn out to be a massive financial mistake !

Unless I'm missing something I can't see how Brighton can possibly get their losses substantially down without Premier League football ? (accounts say they need to get their losses down to 8m for YE14). I can't see ticket income increasing much. They could improve their commercial revenue a bit and maybe reduce the Admin & operating costs a tad but that would be a few mill max here and there.

They obviously need to reduce the wage bill but if I was running this company I'd be worried. Obviously they need TB to be around else Administration is a certainty unless they get promoted.

Penstone Eagle
11-08-2014, 11:49 AM
This is a thread for a grown up discussion of Brighton's finances. Can we keep any laughter in the LOL or Insights threads :p

I don't think their 30/6/2013 accounts have been readily looked at across the internet so I've got them and itemised some of the items in the P&L (see attached) and it throws up some interesting issues. I'm an actuary rather than an accountant so would be interested in any views from our resident bean counters and any sensible NSCer lurkers but a few things that jump out to me are:

1. just over a third of their income comes directly from ordinary ticket holders. They do pretty well on sponsorship and advertising but its difficult to see where they can go too much further increasing income from the ordinary fan ?

2. it shows how important the central payment from the Prem League is to clubs in the Championship and why the Chairmen had to vote in the EPPP thing

3. You can see why they are struggling to get players in. Their wage bill seems pretty big and needs managing I'd guess !

4. The mega big elephant in the room. The 'Administrative & operational costs' item which I've been harping on about for ages !! The 2012 accounts suggested that this was a consequence of having a 'state of the art' stadium ie they were effectively fixed overheads ! The 2013 accounts seem to confirm this since they say they are 'reasonable compared to last year' and are a bit higher due to redundancy payments ie they are here to stay ! If they are fixed overheads then that really is a big worry and would suggest the Amex could turn out to be a massive financial mistake !

Unless I'm missing something I can't see how Brighton can possibly get their losses substantially down without Premier League football ? (accounts say they need to get their losses down to 8m for YE14). I can't see ticket income increasing much. They could improve their commercial revenue a bit and maybe reduce the Admin & operating costs a tad but that would be a few mill max here and there.

They obviously need to reduce the wage bill but if I was running this company I'd be worried. Obviously they need TB to be around else Administration is a certainty unless they get promoted.

I really don't have any substantial knowledge of this type of financial results, but common sense told me at the outset that PL football would be an absolute necessity to make this work and sustain it.

Burnley for example, and us of course, will have to use the PL money to upgrade stadia etc and of course grow other revenue streams, but at least it can be financially tailored accordingly. Brighton of course would have been laughing if they'd got promoted, but they didn't, to me I'd rather have done it the way we are.

We have a Bentley and are having to build a suitable garage around and for it, but can afford it. Brighton have a luxury garage but can't afford to fill it.

The Amex was/ is a huge gamble, despite Bloom's apparent wealth. The novelty is wearing off and revenue will suffer, unless they get lucky.

eaglejez
11-08-2014, 11:52 AM
I really don't have any substantial knowledge of this type of financial results, but common sense told me at the outset that PL football would be an absolute necessity to make this work and sustain it.

Burnley for example, and us of course, will have to use the PL money to upgrade stadia etc and of course grow other revenue streams, but at least it can be financially tailored accordingly. Brighton of course would have been laughing if they'd got promoted, but they didn't, to me I'd rather have done it the way we are.

I used an analogy once to describe ours and Brightons situation.

We have a Bentley and are having to build a suitable garage around and for it, but can afford it. Brighton have a luxury garage but can't afford to fill it.

The Amex was/ is a huge gamble, despite Bloom's apparent wealth. The novelty is wearing off and revenue will suffer, unless they get lucky.

yep - I think the Amex is essentially a net cost of at least 6m pa ie Brighton would be much better off financially without it.

Vince Hilaire's Afro
11-08-2014, 12:09 PM
Their transfer activity this year will be telling. If they don't reinvest much or any if the Ulloa money back into the team, it will surely be a sign that Bloom is baulking at just how much this vanity project is costing him.

Of course, their fans will harp on about some noble, moral crusade about FFP, but the simple fact will be that Bloom massively overspent on infrastructure, massively overspent on transfers and wages to get ahead during the Poyet years. He's now reining it in for his own benefit before it snowballs even further.

They rolled the dice, came up short, and now snipe and sneer at every other club who are having their shot.

Adlerhorst
11-08-2014, 12:19 PM
Is the £27k income received in respect of "women and girls" in 2013 entirely from Lewis Dunk or is it something else?

old git
11-08-2014, 12:26 PM
Wages rose from 13.2 to 18.9 million.:eek:
Did I miss them getting promotion?

eagle mart
11-08-2014, 12:31 PM
They pay 'rent' to Tony's holding company for the ground, which has just kicked in. £500K twice a year, from memory. that's a million pound rent, on a ground they claim they own. Even at £500k it's still a burden... Their wage bill was a chain around their neck - they had to offload and get in budget replacements. Sales will be mostly offset against this past years losses / accounts. So they wont see the wage bill come down just yet!

Feel good factor isn't enough, as a club their cycle has peaked. They are going to have to take a step back - lower half finish / relegation battle before they can go upwards again. They are taking a breather, and will have to regroup and try and challenge in a season or two's time.

Ninjas Headband
11-08-2014, 12:37 PM
I get the feeling that they're currently restricting with finances in mind. They will be lowering both salary and admin costs to fit in line with FFP. They are consolidating as a Championship side rather than gambling on being Premier Ready.

This makes sense now that they have the infrastructure to develop their own players but is a long term plan. This could take another 5-10 years? Will the recent converts to Brighton have the patience to wait and see how the club might develop based on a financially sound footing or will they be attracted by some other shiny new toy now that the gleem of the Amex is wearing thin.

Penstone Eagle
11-08-2014, 01:18 PM
I get the feeling that they're currently restricting with finances in mind. They will be lowering both salary and admin costs to fit in line with FFP. They are consolidating as a Championship side rather than gambling on being Premier Ready.

This makes sense now that they have the infrastructure to develop their own players but is a long term plan. This could take another 5-10 years? Will the recent converts to Brighton have the patience to wait and see how the club might develop based on a financially sound footing or will they be attracted by some other shiny new toy now that the gleem of the Amex is wearing thin.

No chance, there is no ST waiting list anymore.

True Brighton fans that I know can see the bigger picture, they'll be rattling around in the Amex soon.

thereichstuff
11-08-2014, 02:24 PM
Does mr bloom cover these losses every year ? If not where does the debt go ?

Adlerhorst
11-08-2014, 02:30 PM
Essentially, yes.

eaglejez
11-08-2014, 02:56 PM
Wages rose from 13.2 to 18.9 million.:eek:
Did I miss them getting promotion?

that includes the players trading. They should have sold Ulloa before June 30th since I'm guessing he was quite a long way through his contract so would show a handsome accounting profit. That sale should help their YE15 nos since even if they bought someone for 10m on a 5 year contract its only a 2m cost pa

eaglejez
11-08-2014, 03:01 PM
No chance, there is no ST waiting list anymore.

True Brighton fans that I know can see the bigger picture, they'll be rattling around in the Amex soon.

the one thing the itemised nos show is that their big crowds give them very little advantage - and in fact would benefit by not having the Amex. Big question is how variable the Admin & op costs are since these would seem to be almost fixed overheads. Only scope they would seem to have is to sell players that are near the end of their contracts since they would be almost fully amortised.

Another issue is that they haven't added any depreciation of the stadium yet ! The notes to the accounts say they may do that for 2014.

Another interesting point is that they have a nice fat deferred tax asset but this isn't brought into account since the Directors don't expect to utilise the tax losses in 'the foreseeable future' ie they don't expect to make profits for some years

also.....just imagine if they had to factor is a min of £10m pa interest cost which they would have to if the FPP rules had been set up properly. They are benefiting from a loop hole in the rules

scro
11-08-2014, 03:06 PM
No chance, there is no ST waiting list anymore.

True Brighton fans that I know can see the bigger picture, they'll be rattling around in the Amex soon.


Didn't they get 27k at the opening game this season. I think there support is holding up reasonably well all things considered.

Penstone Eagle
11-08-2014, 03:10 PM
I refuse to be wooshed and will not post the picture of the empty seats.

eaglejez
11-08-2014, 03:13 PM
Didn't they get 27k at the opening game this season. I think there support is holding up reasonably well all things considered.

Weds bought almost 3K. I think I read somewhere they were 7% down on STs so I think they have just over 21K STs which get counted everytime. Add in 3K on the day jobs and 3K weds and you are there. Its fair to say that they have just about maxed out on ticket income ie c9m pa

the drexciyan
11-08-2014, 03:51 PM
They pay 'rent' to Tony's holding company for the ground, which has just kicked in. £500K twice a year, from memory. that's a million pound rent, on a ground they claim they own. Even at £500k it's still a burden... Their wage bill was a chain around their neck - they had to offload and get in budget replacements. Sales will be mostly offset against this past years losses / accounts. So they wont see the wage bill come down just yet!

Feel good factor isn't enough, as a club their cycle has peaked. They are going to have to take a step back - lower half finish / relegation battle before they can go upwards again. They are taking a breather, and will have to regroup and try and challenge in a season or two's time.

I would tend to agree. For every Swansea and Hull who have made it from the lower levels there is a PNE, Bristol City and Huddersfield who came close but couldn't do it and have now got back to where they more or less were.

the drexciyan
11-08-2014, 03:56 PM
Didn't they get 27k at the opening game this season. I think there support is holding up reasonably well all things considered.

The first thing I thought when I saw the FLS was that their stadium looked half full. Its the old trick of counting all the STs as attendees. Dare say we've done it ourselves before but there do seem to be a lot of people down there who seem to buy a ST but support another team. I overheard myself 2 gooners on the train who were going to the charity shield. They had Brighton STs but hardly ever went.

Penstone Eagle
11-08-2014, 04:00 PM
friends of mine reckon 24k max v SW on Saturday

SJ'sLoveMonkey
11-08-2014, 04:07 PM
friends of mine reckon 24k max v SW on Saturday

A guy I know said not even 23k

scro
11-08-2014, 04:17 PM
The first thing I thought when I saw the FLS was that their stadium looked half full. Its the old trick of counting all the STs as attendees. Dare say we've done it ourselves before but there do seem to be a lot of people down there who seem to buy a ST but support another team. I overheard myself 2 gooners on the train who were going to the charity shield. They had Brighton STs but hardly ever went.

Not sure it matters as long as you sold the ticket.

eaglejez
11-08-2014, 04:19 PM
Adding in stadium depreciation is not going to help their FPP position ?

eagle mart
11-08-2014, 04:23 PM
A guy I know said not even 23k

It's August, STH's will be on holiday. We'll give them that.

Am sure there will be a few for our game, unless we can sell them back. Actually three of us are missing WHAM for SW4 festival and other reasons.

Penstone Eagle
11-08-2014, 04:40 PM
It's August, STH's will be on holiday. We'll give them that.

Am sure there will be a few for our game, unless we can sell them back. Actually three of us are missing WHAM for SW4 festival and other reasons.

Yes of course, but trust me the vibes down here are that numbers will dwindle

SJ'sLoveMonkey
11-08-2014, 04:47 PM
It's August, STH's will be on holiday. We'll give them that.

Am sure there will be a few for our game, unless we can sell them back. Actually three of us are missing WHAM for SW4 festival and other reasons.


You are right I was just saying what I was told

Pistol Knight
11-08-2014, 05:04 PM
It's August, STH's will be on holiday. We'll give them that.

Am sure there will be a few for our game, unless we can sell them back. Actually three of us are missing WHAM for SW4 festival and other reasons.

I'm missing for the WH game, but ticket has been well allocated to another Palace fan :D

I really dont give a shite what the Tarquins are up to anymore

biggus mickus
11-08-2014, 05:15 PM
I'm missing for the WH game, but ticket has been well allocated to another Palace fan :D

I really dont give a shite what the Tarquins are up to anymore

Yes you do. You do. You really do.

Pistol Knight
11-08-2014, 05:25 PM
Yes you do. You do. You really do.

I know I do, but if I rub it in they will do well (reverse psychology in effect) so I am turning my nose up at them

Nth Kent Eagle
11-08-2014, 06:43 PM
Administrative and operational costs seem very high for a Championship club.

passion4palace
11-08-2014, 07:23 PM
Premier League costs, Championship income

ExeterEagle
11-08-2014, 08:12 PM
£52m of debt - that's a lot more than when we went into administration!

spt1978
11-08-2014, 08:13 PM
Will piss myself if they fail FFP.

Billy Rhino
11-08-2014, 08:19 PM
Administrative and operational costs seem very high for a Championship club.

It's a very basic document with no real financial detail, looks like it's been knocked up on excel by an office junior.

eaglejez
11-08-2014, 09:00 PM
It's a very basic document with no real financial detail, looks like it's been knocked up on excel by an office junior.

erm......that was my breakdown of the accounts. I think you misread the thread. If you look at the actual accounts the nos are all over the place. This is a summary of the main costs and revenue items in one place

TheMexicanHorse
11-08-2014, 10:06 PM
Yes but according to media who have some strange biased towards Brighton, apparently they are 'Premiership Ready' don't you know?

GorBlimey
11-08-2014, 10:58 PM
They pay 'rent' to Tony's holding company for the ground,

Wasn't that the same financial engineering that Noades used on us?

Billy Rhino
11-08-2014, 11:10 PM
erm......that was my breakdown of the accounts. I think you misread the thread. If you look at the actual accounts the nos are all over the place. This is a summary of the main costs and revenue items in one place

Oh, my apologises....(awkward moment)...yeah it's very good.;)

Seriously, without knowing the breakdown of their (extortionate!) admin costs it's hard to decipher whether they are manageable. I assume part of the costs must be the extension to the ground they did recently?

Also, a breakdown of their transfer dealings would be useful.

eaglejez
12-08-2014, 08:16 AM
Oh, my apologises....(awkward moment)...yeah it's very good.;)

Seriously, without knowing the breakdown of their (extortionate!) admin costs it's hard to decipher whether they are manageable. I assume part of the costs must be the extension to the ground they did recently?

Also, a breakdown of their transfer dealings would be useful.

I must admit it was the first time I'd looked at the accounts in detail and if you look at 2013 and 2012 its clear there would seem to be some structural issues with their finances. ie might be totally wrong but those Admin & Operational costs would seem to be pretty fixed overheads ie the 2012 accounts say they are the consequence of having the 'state of the art' stadium. This means that although they get more income than if they were at the Withdean this doesn't outweigh these ie put another way I estimate the Amex is a min net cost to them of 6m pa !!

I'm not an FPP expert but if this uses their P&L as the gauge then having to depreciate the stadium is not going to help things. That said the 'wages & costs' item includes transfers so they should be able to help the bottom line by making profits on these. The Ulloa transfer should help the YE15 figs

If they don't go up there's going to be a lot of hard work to comply with FPP. This ignores the underlying structural problems that their business model would seem to have. Poor Tony

ebyeeckeagle
12-08-2014, 08:25 AM
Oh, my apologises....(awkward moment)...yeah it's very good.;).

Just had a good chortle :)

Chris K
12-08-2014, 08:57 AM
I think the ground and associated costs were taken on with the assumption/intention that they would get Premier League football within a year or two as those costs in the Championship are simply not sustainable. Looking at the P&L comparison it seems they took a £6m gamble (in transfers/wages) on getting promoted and for some reason (anyone remember why?) it didn't work out.

With crowds of 27,000 they're pretty much at the maximum revenue they can get in the Championship without putting up prices but then the elasticity of demand will kick in and therefore isn't guaranteed to bring any benefit.

I'm not sure depreciation on infrastructure is applicable for FFP but if we're talking purely then about the Financial Statements then £120m/50 = £2.4m per annum to add on to the P&L. Did I also see that costs of running a Category A training facility is another £2.5m per year? That's another £4.9m in total that's going to be hitting their P&L for the forseeable.

Without seeing a breakdown of the Operations Costs its impossible to get to big an insight but as Jez says they're pretty consistent across the two years so a good indication they're fixed.

Looking at the figures someone has either been very naive in assuming that Premier League football would follow the stadium so that costs would be sustainable or the person that built their forecasts has made some big omissions

eagle mart
12-08-2014, 09:27 AM
£52m of debt - that's a lot more than when we went into administration!

Plus their Ground - which is 'Tony's debt' apparently. He hasn't written it off yet - so he still wants his money back eventually.

eagle mart
12-08-2014, 09:28 AM
I think the ground and associated costs were taken on with the assumption/intention that they would get Premier League football within a year or two as those costs in the Championship are simply not sustainable. Looking at the P&L comparison it seems they took a £6m gamble (in transfers/wages) on getting promoted and for some reason (anyone remember why?) it didn't work out.

With crowds of 27,000 they're pretty much at the maximum revenue they can get in the Championship without putting up prices but then the elasticity of demand will kick in and therefore isn't guaranteed to bring any benefit.

I'm not sure depreciation on infrastructure is applicable for FFP but if we're talking purely then about the Financial Statements then £120m/50 = £2.4m per annum to add on to the P&L. Did I also see that costs of running a Category A training facility is another £2.5m per year? That's another £4.9m in total that's going to be hitting their P&L for the forseeable.

Without seeing a breakdown of the Operations Costs its impossible to get to big an insight but as Jez says they're pretty consistent across the two years so a good indication they're fixed.

Looking at the figures someone has either been very naive in assuming that Premier League football would follow the stadium so that costs would be sustainable or the person that built their forecasts has made some big omissions

Not just a DJ!

GreatGonzo
12-08-2014, 09:36 AM
Wasn't that the same financial engineering that Noades used on us?

Same that Palace currently use?

Chris K
12-08-2014, 09:47 AM
The first thing I thought when I saw the FLS was that their stadium looked half full. Its the old trick of counting all the STs as attendees.

I don't think it's a trick. I'd say it's more a case of matching revenue with expenses over the course of the year. The attendance is the number of people that have paid to be there rather than are actually there. For every season ticket the revenue is actually (for ease let's say it's £230 for an ST) £10 per game. Not £230 in June and zero for the rest of the year, nor is someone going to be sat their going "Client Ref: 123456" Has only been to 19 of 23 games this season so they brought in £0 for 4 games and £12.10 for the other 19. That split over 23,000 people would be a bloody nightmare and a complete waste of time.

In days when ST's weren't so common place attendances would be much closer to the actual number of people in 'attendance' now it's about people that have paid to be there regardless of whether in the ground or not

Payney
12-08-2014, 09:51 AM
Anyone know if the new hotel will help them? Will it provide a revenue stream to BHAFC?

Typical Palace
12-08-2014, 09:59 AM
Yes but according to media who have some strange biased towards Brighton, apparently they are 'Premiership Ready' don't you know?
Probably something to do with nice press facilities at the Tampax

Penstone Eagle
12-08-2014, 10:01 AM
Yes but according to media who have some strange biased towards Brighton, apparently they are 'Premiership Ready' don't you know?


especially talksport, 'The moose' seems to w*nk himself whenever he mentions the Amex and Brighton

East-End Eagle
12-08-2014, 10:13 AM
I think the ground and associated costs were taken on with the assumption/intention that they would get Premier League football within a year or two as those costs in the Championship are simply not sustainable. Looking at the P&L comparison it seems they took a £6m gamble (in transfers/wages) on getting promoted and for some reason (anyone remember why?) it didn't work out.

Looking at the figures someone has either been very naive in assuming that Premier League football would follow the stadium so that costs would be sustainable or the person that built their forecasts has made some big omissions

A very close friend of mine was involved in an important aspect of the new stadium (dont want to go into details). He was told by the Brighton board that they were "going for it" during their first season in the new stadium, and were willing to throw money at it (look at the signing of CMS for example). It seems they wanted to throw the dice, and it didnt work out for them. So yes, I think they did "gamble". It seems the whole plan was to get promo in the first season, and now FFP has kicked in they are screwed.

If I were a Brighton fan that would concern me greatly, as short term gambling is not the way to a sustainable future.

cpfcfly
12-08-2014, 10:17 AM
The Brighton fans I know are disillusioned about the club's finances and don't believe anything will happen. Now the debt is up to £52 million (ten times more than us), and we went into administration once Jordan had run out of money leading to us not being able to pay other creditors, the same might happen to Brighton

Rather unfortunately for the real Brighton fans, I feel an impeding disaster coming unless they can get promoted.

GreatGonzo
12-08-2014, 10:24 AM
A very close friend of mine was involved in an important aspect of the new stadium (dont want to go into details). He was told by the Brighton board that they were "going for it" during their first season in the new stadium, and were willing to throw money at it (look at the signing of CMS for example). It seems they wanted to throw the dice, and it didnt work out for them. So yes, I think they did "gamble". It seems the whole plan was to get promo in the first season, and now FFP has kicked in they are screwed.

If I were a Brighton fan that would concern me greatly, as short term gambling is not the way to a sustainable future.

If you look back to their finances in their last year at the Withdean, they gambled in League 1 as they needed to be in the Championship in the new ground to get reasonable attendances. So they gambled for several years not just that 1. Now having not won the gamble they are starting to cut their cloth. The issue is that the fans did the same, they bought into the PL idea and now it is not looking likely they are looking at their finaces and questioning a ST. As they do this the cloth that BHA have to work with will shrink and shrink. They need their new Academy to be sustaining their team and quickly, but how many players will choose a League 1 Academy which is where they could be headed in a couple of years time.

Just look at teh number of clubs who have built the ground and hoped future finances would pay for it and the result of it. Leicester and Southampton needed administration to shed the costs, Darlington were scred by it. MKDons still play in a half finished stadium with no signs the rest will be done. Derby have spent a long time out of the top flight etc etc

GreatGonzo
12-08-2014, 10:25 AM
The Brighton fans I know are disillusioned about the club's finances and don't believe anything will happen. Now the debt is up to £52 million (ten times more than us), and we went into administration once Jordan had run out of money leading to us not being able to pay other creditors, the same might happen to Brighton

Rather unfortunately for the real Brighton fans, I feel an impeding disaster coming unless they can get promoted.

We were £30m in debt, it was just the £5 to Agilo who pulled the plug but ignores all our other creditors at the time.

Penstone Eagle
12-08-2014, 10:26 AM
Clearly the intention, and of course the deluded belief, was that PL football would be achieved within a couple of seasons, in my opinion they believed that they were a cut above the rest and the sneering at other clubs backs that up, oh how they under estimated things and I can't believe they expected to be able to compete for promotion by a lengthy stay in the championship, a league that will be harder and harder to get out of as it fills up with relegated clubs with even more parachute money than ever before.

They won't admit it but their plan/gamble failed.

GreatGonzo
12-08-2014, 11:19 AM
Clearly the intention, and of course the deluded belief, was that PL football would be achieved within a couple of seasons, in my opinion they believed that they were a cut above the rest and the sneering at other clubs backs that up, oh how they under estimated things and I can't believe they expected to be able to compete for promotion by a lengthy stay in the championship, a league that will be harder and harder to get out of as it fills up with relegated clubs with even more parachute money than ever before.

They won't admit it but their plan/gamble failed.

It will depend on how FFP is implemented or more to the point the punishments. In theory several clubs will not be able to sign any more players after 1st September until they are compliant. In theory QPR are due to be hit with a substantial fine, as will Leicester but there may be problems in actually getting that money.

Then it will depend on what happens to teams who get relegated from PL having not paid their fine and whether they do introduce transfer ban in January.

That might give ways for other clubs to get into the top flight. Otherwise with 3 clubs each year entering teh Championship with twice the average income of other clubs in parachute payments will make it very hard for other clubs.

cpfcfly
12-08-2014, 11:24 AM
As you enter Brighton out of the main station, there was a poster heralding the great achievements of Brighton & Hove as a city that I first saw around October 2012. At the end was "2013: Brighton & Hove Albion in the Premier League?" I turned to my Ipswich Town mate and we both laughed it off. I wonder how many other people did the same...?

GorBlimey
12-08-2014, 03:36 PM
Same that Palace currently use?

No.

SJ's best ever piece of business was to buy the ground from Noades so when CPFC2010 bought the club out of administration, the assets included the stadium. They've also purchased the training ground so Crystal Palace as a business now has considerable tangible and intangible assets plus cash in the bank, which makes us a much different proposition than when Mark Goldberg blew his fortune back in the day.

I know Noades has his fans but I always thought he was a bit of a crook who took out more than he put in.

Adlerhorst
12-08-2014, 04:27 PM
SJ's best ever piece of business was to buy the ground from Noades so when CPFC2010 bought the club out of administration, the assets included the stadium. Man, some people are really attached to those T-Shirts.

What happened with the stadium involved a shit ton (really an absolute shit ton) of luck that brought about some very unusual but equally extremely advantageous circumstances that CPFC2010 were able to exploit.

Heb 7:4
12-08-2014, 04:28 PM
SJ's best ever piece of business was to buy the ground from Noades so when CPFC2010 bought the club out of administration, the assets included the stadium.

Do I need to read back a few pages to see if this is referencing some earlier joke?

eaglejez
12-08-2014, 04:41 PM
Plus their Ground - which is 'Tony's debt' apparently. He hasn't written it off yet - so he still wants his money back eventually.

yep - TB is a 150m+ creditor of Brighton. He's written some off by converting to equity (the same thing). key thing is how much money he's got. There's no evidence on the internet that he has sufficient funds. His alleged gambling internet site sales can only have brought in a few million

Pistol Knight
12-08-2014, 05:25 PM
Do I need to read back a few pages to see if this is referencing some earlier joke?

No, history has been re-written just for us to make it simple for us older folk :D

GorBlimey
12-08-2014, 05:38 PM
Man, some people are really attached to those T-Shirts.

What happened with the stadium involved a shit ton (really an absolute shit ton) of luck that brought about some very unusual but equally extremely advantageous circumstances that CPFC2010 were able to exploit.

..and your point is?

Adlerhorst
12-08-2014, 05:48 PM
..and your point is?Well let's start with the biggie

Jordan never bought the ground. Though i'll concede he claimed to have done and there were T-shirts printed that said he did. Did you buy one?

Crozzy71
12-08-2014, 06:06 PM
No.

SJ's best ever piece of business was to buy the ground from Noades so when CPFC2010 bought the club out of administration, the assets included the stadium. They've also purchased the training ground so Crystal Palace as a business now has considerable tangible and intangible assets plus cash in the bank, which makes us a much different proposition than when Mark Goldberg blew his fortune back in the day.

I know Noades has his fans but I always thought he was a bit of a crook who took out more than he put in.

I think you've forgotten the fact that once we entered administration the ground and club were owned by different administrators. The reason being SJ hocked himself to Paul Kemsley and when he failed to pay ownership went to Kemsley.

When Kemsley's Rok company went tits up CPFC2010 had to negotiate with both administrators separately to buy both assets.

Brighton have gambled on promotion big style. The reason being they're in the fortunate position of having a wealthy owner who was willing to bankroll it.

In equal measure to being fortunate they are vulnerable to being entirely dependant on one person and we've seen how that can work or fail.

The fact Bloom has structured ground ownership into a Propco / Opco structure is merely a standard protection mechanism should the club fail (or he choose to out them into administration or receivership) so he can let them go and the ground remains protected.

The admin costs do look high but without a breakdown all we can do is speculate (probably incorrectly). Not sure where one poster got a figure of £6m from as being associated with ground costs. The other post of annual rent of £1m pa looks about right and is comfortably covered by catering income of £1.7m. This is why CPFC2010 are so keen to develop Selhurst.

I don't confess to understand the finite details of FFP, but clearly the are now having to cut their cloth to meet the restrictions. Unfortunately for them it's come at exactly the wrong time.

I wasn't able to view the link to the full accounts but I would be intrigued to see the balance sheet. I assume the accounts were signed off on a going concern basis with a statement that the owner will continue to fund the club for the next 12m. That still gives Bloom a get out should he decide enough is enough, but rent of £1m a year should help.

All in all with income pretty much maximised (likely to decline ?) their main hope is for a promotion season this year or I can see them scaling back on all fronts.

I did envy them for a couple of years, but looking at it now, no thanks.

Adlerhorst
12-08-2014, 06:08 PM
I assume the accounts were signed off on a going concern basis with a statement that the owner will continue to fund the club for the next 12m.Without question.

Here's one to ponder over, so were ours even after we had been promoted.

Crozzy71
12-08-2014, 06:16 PM
Without question.

Here's one to ponder over, so were ours even after we had been promoted.

There are very few (Arsenal, Man Utd) English clubs that are are entirely sufficient on football business alone.

Adlerhorst
12-08-2014, 06:20 PM
There are very few (Arsenal, Man Utd) English clubs that are are entirely sufficient on football business alone.I know.

But at that precise moment in time we were one of the few clubs who certainly should have been. I get the feeling you know are probably aware what evidence is needed by the auditors to not seek shareholder support on going concern. I find it exceedingly odd that we didn't or couldn't present that.

GorBlimey
12-08-2014, 06:26 PM
Well let's start with the biggie

Jordan never bought the ground. Though i'll concede he claimed to have done and there were T-shirts printed that said he did. Did you buy one?

Nope. Nevertheless, the ground was taken off Noades and is now in the ownership of CPFC2010 along with the club.

I think SJ has to be accorded some credit whatever the shenanigans that took place along the way.

Adlerhorst
12-08-2014, 06:43 PM
Nope. Nevertheless, the ground was taken off Noades and is now in the ownership of CPFC2010 along with the club.

I think SJ has to be accorded some credit whatever the shenanigans that took place along the way.I can see one bit, just one in the whole sorry fiasco that Jordan actually deserves credit for and that's allowing the CVA to go through as it did.

The rest, even if it ultimately ended up with CPFC2010 getting a good deal when it acquired the club and the ground, was not remotely Jordan's intention, so I don't see on what grounds he should be given credit for it.

GorBlimey
12-08-2014, 06:54 PM
I can see one bit, just one in the whole sorry fiasco that Jordan actually deserves credit for and that's allowing the CVA to go through as it did.

The rest, even if it ultimately ended up with CPFC2010 getting a good deal when it acquired the club and the ground, was not remotely Jordan's intention, so I don't see on what grounds he should be given credit for it.

Simply because Noades didn't continue owning the ground. Goldberg went broke buying the club without its single biggest asset, which Noades owned. Bringing it back into the club, however convoluted the story, is pivotal to where we are today.

Crozzy71
12-08-2014, 06:56 PM
I know.

But at that precise moment in time we were one of the few clubs who certainly should have been. I get the feeling you know are probably aware what evidence is needed by the auditors to not seek shareholder support on going concern. I find it exceedingly odd that we didn't or couldn't present that.

Think I've missed something, we're our accounts qualified ?

Adlerhorst
12-08-2014, 07:14 PM
Think I've missed something, we're our accounts qualified ?Not qualified. Emphasis of matter disclosure, continued support and all that jazz.

I just find it odd, that given the audit opinion was signed in October 13, when we hadn't spent a shit ton of money but did have a shit ton of income coming in and would have clearly been forecast to make a profit (see the DTA recognition for that), that the Auditors felt that they needed to obtain comfort that there would still be support from shareholders.

It's just bizarre.

Adlerhorst
12-08-2014, 07:17 PM
Simply because Noades didn't continue owning the ground. Goldberg went broke buying the club without its single biggest asset, which Noades owned. Bringing it back into the club, however convoluted the story, is pivotal to where we are today.That the club and the ground are reunited was obviously crucial for CPFC2010.

Though why Jordan should receive the slightest credit for this is beyond me. He left the ground in the hands of a propertry developer. Dumb luck is why Palace were in a positon that CPFC2010 could acquire the ground for **** all. No credit should be associated with dumb luck.

GorBlimey
12-08-2014, 07:25 PM
That the club and the ground are reunited was obviously crucial for CPFC2010.

Though why Jordan should receive the slightest credit for this is beyond me. He left the ground in the hands of a propertry developer. Dumb luck is why Palace were in a positon that CPFC2010 could acquire the ground for **** all. No credit should be associated with dumb luck.

Well it should because otherwise the Noades family would have still owned the land and because of that CPFC2010 wouldn't have risked their money on buying Palace just to do a Goldberg.

So Selhurst Park would now be a housing development and AFC Crystal Palace would be in the Skrill premier division.

Crozzy71
12-08-2014, 07:27 PM
Not qualified. Emphasis of matter disclosure, continued support and all that jazz.

I just find it odd, that given the audit opinion was signed in October 13, when we hadn't spent a shit ton of money but did have a shit ton of income coming in and would have clearly been forecast to make a profit (see the DTA recognition for that), that the Auditors felt that they needed to obtain comfort that there would still be support from shareholders.

It's just bizarre.

In a way I can understand the auditors caution as we could have blown all the money in quick time. This is football after all !!

The audit firms have been (rightly) slapped for signing off audit reports without undertaking the appropriate due diligence so I do get it why they would add such comments.

Crozzy71
12-08-2014, 07:28 PM
That the club and the ground are reunited was obviously crucial for CPFC2010.

Though why Jordan should receive the slightest credit for this is beyond me. He left the ground in the hands of a propertry developer. Dumb luck is why Palace were in a positon that CPFC2010 could acquire the ground for **** all. No credit should be associated with dumb luck.

Spot on.

davemorris04
12-08-2014, 07:32 PM
When are our accounts released?

Adlerhorst
12-08-2014, 07:41 PM
In a way I can understand the auditors caution as we could have blown all the money in quick time. This is football after all !!

The audit firms have been (rightly) slapped for signing off audit reports without undertaking the appropriate due diligence so I do get it why they would add such comments.Then why allow the recognition of the DTA.

Though I suppose we should be realistic here. I forget who the auditors are, but it isn't going to be the best team a Big Four firm has to offer. You'd guess it would be a regional office of a smaller firm. You are going to get silliness.

Anyway, this thread is for laughing at Brighton. :)

Adlerhorst
12-08-2014, 07:44 PM
Well it should because otherwise the Noades family would have still owned the land and because of that CPFC2010 wouldn't have risked their money on buying Palace just to do a Goldberg.

So Selhurst Park would now be a housing development and AFC Crystal Palace would be in the Skrill premier division.I am not going to try and change you mind any more. You want to give Jordan credit then it is up to you.

you are utterly mistaken though.

ps. When people evaluate based on outcome and ignore the process, they end up repeating bad processes that once (becasue of dumb luck) brought about a good result. If you do that in a business, eventually (and sometimes very quickly) you go bankrupt.

GorBlimey
12-08-2014, 08:23 PM
I am not going to try and change you mind any more. You want to give Jordan credit then it is up to you.

you are utterly mistaken though.

ps. When people evaluate based on outcome and ignore the process, they end up repeating bad processes that once (becasue of dumb luck) brought about a good result. If you do that in a business, eventually (and sometimes very quickly) you go bankrupt.

I can't understand your issue. We are where we are because of Jordan buying the club. He may have gone broke in the process but otherwise the Noades family would have almost certainly flogged Selhurst Park for development at some point.

Goldberg was almightily shafted by Noades and, for someone who had made so much money, was extraordinarily stupid when he bought the club without the ground.

Jordan picked up the pieces and certainly had the goal of reuniting club and ground so he does at least deserve that recognition. Whatever part he played and whoever deserves the most credit is not at issue because, ultimately, the ground has been reunited with the club via CPFC2010.

Whatever way you want to present the history, this is the reality and thank God it turned out this way

Adlerhorst
12-08-2014, 08:32 PM
I can't understand your issue.That much is abundantly clear.

Here's a final hint (and then I am leaving this because 1) it is doing you no favours and 2) this is supposed to be about Brighton). Your main beef appears to be with Noades. Because you are anti-Noades doesn't mean you have to be pro Jordan.

Crozzy71
12-08-2014, 08:39 PM
Anyhow, brighton are pretty much fecked unless they go up this year !!

eaglejez
12-08-2014, 09:48 PM
Then why allow the recognition of the DTA.

Though I suppose we should be realistic here. I forget who the auditors are, but it isn't going to be the best team a Big Four firm has to offer. You'd guess it would be a regional office of a smaller firm. You are going to get silliness.

Anyway, this thread is for laughing at Brighton. :)

The Brighton DTA wasn't recognised since the Directors don't expect profits in the near future. I do have the accounts but in pdflite format. Not sure how to get them on here !

Re the 6m that was my guesstimate. Probably rubbish but reading the two last years accounts it seems the 'Admin & Operational Costs' are pretty much fixed. This is a massive key point for all Brighton fans to worry about but there simply seems to be no info anywhere on them. Latest accounts suggest 16-17m are reasonable but are a bit higher dye to a redundancy programme. I took half the ticketing income and most of the sponsorship as extra income they get from having the Amex (ie c10m extra revenue from what they would get somewhere else) but taking offc16m fixed costs from the stadium. Maybe not too exact but the general point that the Amex is not some mega advantage would still stand.

Personally I'd be worried if I was a Brighton fan since TB us going to need to be around for many years to come unless they go up

Adlerhorst
12-08-2014, 10:34 PM
On the DTA we were talking about palace at that point.

Gathers54
12-08-2014, 10:53 PM
Their ticket income is fairly high for a Championship club and it did increase last year, on the year before but then their retail income dropped a similar amount.

Dont they still offer subsidised travel to their fans as an incentive to go to the games? I assume that cost is within the admin expenses which came in at a staggering £38m :eek:

As a club, Brighton hate aside, over the last few years they have done well in both league 1 and the championship. Building a new academy is also an achievement. However, for me on the outside looking in, it seems as though they are trying to achieve everything way too quickly.

eaglejez
13-08-2014, 08:59 AM
Their ticket income is fairly high for a Championship club and it did increase last year, on the year before but then their retail income dropped a similar amount.

Dont they still offer subsidised travel to their fans as an incentive to go to the games? I assume that cost is within the admin expenses which came in at a staggering £38m :eek:

As a club, Brighton hate aside, over the last few years they have done well in both league 1 and the championship. Building a new academy is also an achievement. However, for me on the outside looking in, it seems as though they are trying to achieve everything way too quickly.

the 38m is made up of 21m football costs and the important admin & operational costs 17m that no one on earth has any info on and is key to whether Brighton effectively can continue to exist in their current form. Or put another way if this item really is a fixed c16m pa then its near impossible to see Brighton complying with FPP many times in the future or even surviving for many years without Administration. I'm amazed no Brighton fans have bothered to delve into this further

eaglejez
13-08-2014, 09:33 AM
one more question for now. How many did they sell between June 2012 and June 2013 ? If they didn't sell that many how on earth are they going to get their loss for YE June 14 down to 8m to comply with FPP ?
Answers on a postcard pls:p

eaglejez
13-08-2014, 11:16 AM
Anyone know if the new hotel will help them? Will it provide a revenue stream to BHAFC?

its a very low margin business and requires a big capital investment. The successful hotel chains are historical businesses that have been going for years with debt paid down.

Starting from scratch is very risky and a very low profit burner. If it wasn't all clubs would do it. In summary, no :p

GreatGonzo
13-08-2014, 01:37 PM
I can't understand your issue. We are where we are because of Jordan buying the club. He may have gone broke in the process but otherwise the Noades family would have almost certainly flogged Selhurst Park for development at some point.

Goldberg was almightily shafted by Noades and, for someone who had made so much money, was extraordinarily stupid when he bought the club without the ground.

Jordan picked up the pieces and certainly had the goal of reuniting club and ground so he does at least deserve that recognition. Whatever part he played and whoever deserves the most credit is not at issue because, ultimately, the ground has been reunited with the club via CPFC2010.

Whatever way you want to present the history, this is the reality and thank God it turned out this way

Only 1 person has ever sold Selhurst Park to a property development company - care to take a guess who?

Goldberg wasn't shafted by Noades, he wanted the club, Noades didn't want to sell, Goldberg offered a ridiculous price, fans told Noades to get lost so he agreed. Goldberg came up short on the money, so Noades sold the club with agreement on the sale of the ground when the cash was available. That offer remained available to Jordan who didn't take it.

If you sold your house to a property developer, risking your family being turfed out of their home, then the developer goes bust (unlikely at the time of sale) and you pick up your house for half the price at auction - would you tell everyone what a genius you are or regretted the stress and worry that you put your family under?

Penstone Eagle
13-08-2014, 03:44 PM
Distinct lack of input from Brighton posters on this thread.

old git
13-08-2014, 03:51 PM
Distinct lack of input from Brighton posters on this thread.

Funny that as they seem to know the tiniest details of our finances.:clown:

Penstone Eagle
13-08-2014, 03:56 PM
I felt sure this thread would tease Andy1980 out of hibernation. I'd be very interested to see his input.

SJ'sLoveMonkey
13-08-2014, 04:06 PM
Funny that as they seem to know the tiniest details of our finances.:clown:


Seagulls Over Grimsby seems to know about every other clubs finances except his own clubs. Funny that

eaglejez
13-08-2014, 04:12 PM
Seagulls Over Grimsby seems to know about every other clubs finances except his own clubs. Funny that

was rather hoping for some NSC lurker input esp re the Admin & op costs issue. If you read NSC most seem to think they are going to comply with FPP. Would be interesting to see how for YE14

GorBlimey
13-08-2014, 04:55 PM
Only 1 person has ever sold Selhurst Park to a property development company - care to take a guess who?


Whatever your take on the history, I think SJ had the club's interests at heart whereas Noades was always interested in what was best for his wallet.

http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/30-Clubs/6187-just-say-noades

Looking2curl1
13-08-2014, 05:32 PM
Brighton's fans are so deluded when it comes to finances.

Apparently we are immoral for having gone into administration and ripped off local businesses. We have cheated by having players we could not afford. That is their stance.

However, what they fail to recognise is that they are themselves financially doped to the point of ridiculousness. There they were, playing in a school sports day stadium, with crowds of 6k, when Mr Bloom decided to build them a 100mil wonky stadium, a new training ground, an academy and the likes of CMS for big money. None of these investments were earned through success on the pitch. It's all been artificial investment. Consequently they are in debt of what, around £120 million?

When we went into Admin, we were in 30 mil debt and Agilo who called in the administrators were owed just 5 million of that 30.

And yet they continually have the audacity to call us cheats.

We did the whole football world a favour by beating those Tarquins in the playoffs. They very nearly profited from their cheating ways.

Nth Kent Eagle
13-08-2014, 05:41 PM
Brighton's finance are indeed opaque. Somehow I would believe that an astute guy like Mr Bloom would have his assets well protected so that if the club becomes unaffordable his other assets such as the stadium would not go down with the football side. It really is promotion this year or big trouble.

eaglejez
13-08-2014, 09:18 PM
Brighton's fans are so deluded when it comes to finances.

Apparently we are immoral for having gone into administration and ripped off local businesses. We have cheated by having players we could not afford. That is their stance.

However, what they fail to recognise is that they are themselves financially doped to the point of ridiculousness. There they were, playing in a school sports day stadium, with crowds of 6k, when Mr Bloom decided to build them a 100mil wonky stadium, a new training ground, an academy and the likes of CMS for big money. None of these investments were earned through success on the pitch. It's all been artificial investment. Consequently they are in debt of what, around £120 million?

When we went into Admin, we were in 30 mil debt and Agilo who called in the administrators were owed just 5 million of that 30.

And yet they continually have the audacity to call us cheats.

We did the whole football world a favour by beating those Tarquins in the playoffs. They very nearly profited from their cheating ways.

great summary that's worth repeating at least daily :p

Cleon
14-08-2014, 05:43 AM
Brighton's finance are indeed opaque.

This is the point I've made for years, but it's much more than that. Mr Bloom's finances are opaque. There is literally no information I can find on his wealth other than the fact that he sold an internet gambling company for £1M 12 years ago, and he's won something like £3M as a professional poker player. Neither explains how he managed to get a £120M stadium built, subsidise £30M of losses over 3-years, and now spend £20 on a training ground and now a hotel.

My concern (for Brighton) would be that he's got lots of connections out east, is he a front for something else or is this one giant gamble with somebody else's money? I assume no sensible bank would be lending without serious money somewhere...

Crozzy71
14-08-2014, 05:47 AM
its a very low margin business and requires a big capital investment. The successful hotel chains are historical businesses that have been going for years with debt paid down.

Starting from scratch is very risky and a very low profit burner. If it wasn't all clubs would do it. In summary, no :p

It depends. For example a new build Hampton by Hilton or Holiday Inn Express (upper 2* / lower 3*) will cost c.£70k per room to build.

You would normally expect these types of operations to convert c.45% of turnover into profit so actually they are quite high margin businesses.

The key is occupancy and room rate and striking the balance between the two. If The Tampax has good conference business that will be a key demand driver.

Away fans will be another.

fang
14-08-2014, 06:32 AM
Neither explains how he managed to get a £120M stadium built, subsidise £30M of losses over 3-years, and now spend £20 on a training ground and now a hotel....

That is of course if you accept that the stadium cost £120 million.

That figure has never been confirmed and many have suggested that the true cost of the Stadium is significantly less than that. It would be a handy trick to claim the Stadium cost more than it did, charge a level of inflated rent to recoup this figure, whilst at the same time claiming you weren't charging interest. You wouldn't need to.

VHA called this economic model "BLOOMFLATION".

Cleon
14-08-2014, 07:04 AM
Would BLOOMFLATION not constitute some kind of fraud? I confess I had not considered that the oft quoted figure might not be accurate. Are there accounts which can be used to verify the stadium's actual costs?

Pidster
14-08-2014, 08:02 AM
was rather hoping for some NSC lurker input esp re the Admin & op costs issue. If you read NSC most seem to think they are going to comply with FPP. Would be interesting to see how for YE14

You would have thought that one of the snivelling little spods would have stuck their head above the parapet to put us "right".... but there again they generally only come on here to brag about their crowd.

fang
14-08-2014, 08:11 AM
Would BLOOMFLATION not constitute some kind of fraud? I confess I had not considered that the oft quoted figure might not be accurate. Are there accounts which can be used to verify the stadium's actual costs?

I haven't seen any and in the past figures ranging from £60 to £120 million have been mentioned, so I'm not sure anyone knows for sure. People have taken to comparing the 'alleged' costs of the Amex with similar Stadium projects elsewhere.

Vince Hilaire's Afro
14-08-2014, 08:53 AM
You would have thought that one of the snivelling little spods would have stuck their head above the parapet to put us "right".... but there again they generally only come on here to brag about their crowd.

Perhaps that's about to come to an end. They may be able to doctor their league attendances to hide their half empty stadium, but not the League Cup.

2011 v Gillingham R1, first season of Amex - 16,295
2013 v Newport R1 - 8049
2014 v Cheltenham R1 - 6595

The writing is on the wall.

danpalace07
14-08-2014, 08:56 AM
If I was a Brighton fan I'd genuinely be quite worried right now. You've got to wonder when the bubble will burst.

eaglejez
14-08-2014, 09:55 AM
This is the point I've made for years, but it's much more than that. Mr Bloom's finances are opaque. There is literally no information I can find on his wealth other than the fact that he sold an internet gambling company for £1M 12 years ago, and he's won something like £3M as a professional poker player. Neither explains how he managed to get a £120M stadium built, subsidise £30M of losses over 3-years, and now spend £20 on a training ground and now a hotel.

My concern (for Brighton) would be that he's got lots of connections out east, is he a front for something else or is this one giant gamble with somebody else's money? I assume no sensible bank would be lending without serious money somewhere...

absolutely - I keep harping on about this, thought I was the only one that had noticed !! :)

eaglejez
14-08-2014, 10:00 AM
It depends. For example a new build Hampton by Hilton or Holiday Inn Express (upper 2* / lower 3*) will cost c.£70k per room to build.

You would normally expect these types of operations to convert c.45% of turnover into profit so actually they are quite high margin businesses.

The key is occupancy and room rate and striking the balance between the two. If The Tampax has good conference business that will be a key demand driver.

Away fans will be another.

yep - fair point. Meant quite risky given the large capital investment. Would be interested to see estimated build costs and what they expect to get for occupancy. Away fans are going to want cheap rooms for 1 night. Also, will people be queueing up to hold conferences there ?!

If I was a Brighton fan I wouldn't be expecting this to turn them into Barcelona too soon

eaglejez
14-08-2014, 10:02 AM
Would BLOOMFLATION not constitute some kind of fraud? I confess I had not considered that the oft quoted figure might not be accurate. Are there accounts which can be used to verify the stadium's actual costs?

haven't tracked the costs over the last few years but the Balance sheet from a quick look seems consistent with c120m being spent on it (I'm not a bean counter though !)

eaglejez
14-08-2014, 10:04 AM
You would have thought that one of the snivelling little spods would have stuck their head above the parapet to put us "right".... but there again they generally only come on here to brag about their crowd.

I think they prefer to be in their world where Bloom is a billionaire and they are going to comply with FPP and since they are the only ones they will suddenly have a massive advantage (why ?:eek:)

Vince Hilaire's Afro
14-08-2014, 10:07 AM
absolutely - I keep harping on about this, thought I was the only one that had noticed !! :)

Eh? We've been saying this for years. Andy1980 must have made 10000 posts denying it all

eaglejez
14-08-2014, 10:07 AM
If I was a Brighton fan I'd genuinely be quite worried right now. You've got to wonder when the bubble will burst.

I keep throwing the question up but no answer - I'm happy to be proved wrong but financially they look screwed as a long term business model unless they get promoted. Unless I'm missing something they are almost maxed out on income and a large chunk of their costs are fixed. The only leeway is player trading which means YE15 should be much better although not really YE14 ? (anyone know who they sold YE14 ?) ie the good old selling your good players for decent money ploy. Probably why they aren't buying lots of players

eaglejez
14-08-2014, 10:08 AM
Eh? We've been saying this for years. Andy1980 must have made 10000 posts denying it all

:p:)

I miss Andy. He was so interesting on the Finance discussions.

Vince Hilaire's Afro
14-08-2014, 10:12 AM
Eh? We've been saying this for years. Andy1980 must have made 10000 posts denying it all

He's right. A cheque or cash requires money to be drawn from a tangible money source, usually a bank account or some such.

From what I understand, TB is a billionaire with no traceable wealth, and the £150m he's thus far bankrolled the club with has presumably been carefully extracted from the horns of magical unicorns and cunningly swindled from the pockets of unsuspecting leprechauns.
.

fang
14-08-2014, 10:14 AM
haven't tracked the costs over the last few years but the Balance sheet from a quick look seems consistent with c120m being spent on it (I'm not a bean counter though !)


But is that a valuation or what was actually spent? Even allowing for the land purchase that is a lot to spend on a bog standard stadium

Vince Hilaire's Afro
14-08-2014, 10:15 AM
Ah that old chestnut. A man with nothing more than a vague tangible history of his wealth has £200m in his back pocket just for a football club (aside from any other ongoing business or personal financial concerns, rather than is securing funding against various assets.

Rather than attempting to disprove others' claims, it's still time for the Bloom cockmunchers to substantiate theirs..

eaglejez
14-08-2014, 10:20 AM
.

its made it onto NSC ! Expected initial reaction but hoping some of the more intelligent ones will be able to answer some of the questions above :)

Vince Hilaire's Afro
14-08-2014, 10:27 AM
Call in his debt? You clearly don't know anything. This was not a recallable loan - loan to who?? Himself? He owns the ground, he won't be pulling it down or building a supermarket on it any time soon. It's all his 'risk', so stop blithering and think up something else to try and make out our club is on shaky ground after 10+ years of practically going extinct.
You TIT!
Apparently 'the club' is meant to repay 'Tony Bloom' all the money back that 'Tony Bloom' has paid into 'the club'. If 'the club' doesn't manage to repay 'Tony Bloom' its DEBT to Tony Bloom he will convert the DEBT into 'club' shares which, dependent on the size of that DEBT after 25 years, and the equity of the club at that time, could be a problem being that the stadium seems to have been so horribly expensive to build for what it is.

None of which is a problem if Tony can swallow that amount. A lot is contingent on whether the club is able to either sustain itself ir actually make money. There are three scenarios:
Club makes money, chalks off all or some debt.
Club breaks even, Tony swallows the debt, converts it into shares which may or may not have equal value to the money he put in. Chief assets the stadium and Gus signings suggest the latter.
Tony continues to pour money into the club chasing the dream, club loses money, Tony is ****ed, already starting off at 100 million in the red.

That's not even taking into account where the funding for the stadium actually came from. The popular view is that Tony just pulled the money from out of his arse, rather than obtaining it from another source. No-one knows.

Another old quote and my reply

dannyb1
14-08-2014, 10:27 AM
who wants to invite some NSCers onto this thread :)
"we want Andy, we want Andy...." :)

They have a thread on this thread so maybe they can invite themselves.

Would be nice to have some new weeds here as there predecessors bar wiggy and furk have all but ****ed off like that nonce londoner.

I kinda miss em and there delusions of grandeur :hi:

Vince Hilaire's Afro
14-08-2014, 10:32 AM
But is that a valuation or what was actually spent? Even allowing for the land purchase that is a lot to spend on a bog standard stadium

Apparently a junk load was spent on planning permission, transport infrastructure and so on. The price of destroying beautiful countryside

fang
14-08-2014, 10:49 AM
Transport infrastructure? Really?

wehatepalace
14-08-2014, 10:55 AM
They have a thread on this thread so maybe they can invite themselves.

Would be nice to have some new weeds here as there predecessors bar wiggy and furk have all but ****ed off like that nonce londoner.

I kinda miss em and there delusions of grandeur :hi:

:hi:

you all miss the weeds?

Are all your warnings and predictions on overspending coming home to roost, i guess you'd love them to? It's still a little to early to tell for sure, but, being upfront and genuine, the signs are not good at all..... everything points today to the club having financial issues.

The last manager did one, as he felt the club weakened not strengthened in january, and now rumours abound that Hypia may have offered his resignation.... the FACTS (this is your cue Old Git!), are that we've sold a fair few players for a good few millions, Bridcutt, Barnes, Ulloa and Buckley plus removed other higher earners off the wages and in return we've got pretty much nothing except Stockdale and an ex barnsley forward.

4 seasons on and the promised transport system is still nowhere near finished..... but the big issue is whats really going on behind the scenes. maybe monkeyboy Poyet was right.

These are not the actions of a club harbouring genuine ambitions towards the PL. Something behind the scenes is very wrong, just about every player we want that is wanted by another club, like Adam Clayton ends up not coming to Brighton..... All the While ST prices are up, matchday food/drinks is going up and we're getting the old FFP bullshit as the reason. Nobody really believes it.

Is Bloom personally skint? who knows. Did he pay for the club with his money or did he leverage himself up to the eyeballs? who knows..... But the club is selling its silver and replacing it with tin or nothing at all..... when all is said and done, its about the team on the pitch and the success or failure that brings, as it stands I'm worried for where its going, no doubt if the team is not improved quickly, the plastics will once again disappear and the real fans (about 6000 according to you!!), will be left.

category one acadamy status is all good and well for the 2020 season, but this season it means nothing

Right now we need the truth, not corporate flannel, the truth.... if we're skint, so be it, as the wise among you have said, it is better to accept a lower league standing within your means than to do a Pompey...... But be upfront, everything price related is going up in cost, theyre still promising a competitve team and they have one of the biggest matchday revenues in ST sales of any Championship club, but still the best players are sold and not replaced and on last weekends performance we're going to struggle. Alarm bells are ringing......

Vince Hilaire's Afro
14-08-2014, 11:01 AM
Transport infrastructure? Really?

Not just trains, but roads and park and rides n shit.

eaglejez
14-08-2014, 11:05 AM
:hi:

you all miss the weeds?

Are all your warnings and predictions on overspending coming home to roost, i guess you'd love them to? It's still a little to early to tell for sure, but, being upfront and genuine, the signs are not good at all..... everything points today to the club having financial issues.

The last manager did one, as he felt the club weakened not strengthened in january, and now rumours abound that Hypia may have offered his resignation.... the FACTS (this is your cue Old Git!), are that we've sold a fair few players for a good few millions, Bridcutt, Barnes, Ulloa and Buckley plus removed other higher earners off the wages and in return we've got pretty much nothing except Stockdale and an ex barnsley forward.

4 seasons on and the promised transport system is still nowhere near finished..... but the big issue is whats really going on behind the scenes. maybe monkeyboy Poyet was right.

These are not the actions of a club harbouring genuine ambitions towards the PL. Something behind the scenes is very wrong, just about every player we want that is wanted by another club, like Adam Clayton ends up not coming to Brighton..... All the While ST prices are up, matchday food/drinks is going up and we're getting the old FFP bullshit as the reason. Nobody really believes it.

Is Bloom personally skint? who knows. Did he pay for the club with his money or did he leverage himself up to the eyeballs? who knows..... But the club is selling its silver and replacing it with tin or nothing at all..... when all is said and done, its about the team on the pitch and the success or failure that brings, as it stands I'm worried for where its going, no doubt if the team is not improved quickly, the plastics will once again disappear and the real fans (about 6000 according to you!!), will be left.

category one acadamy status is all good and well for the 2020 season, but this season it means nothing

Right now we need the truth, not corporate flannel, the truth.... if we're skint, so be it, as the wise among you have said, it is better to accept a lower league standing within your means than to do a Pompey...... But be upfront, everything price related is going up in cost, theyre still promising a competitve team and they have one of the biggest matchday revenues in ST sales of any Championship club, but still the best players are sold and not replaced and on last weekends performance we're going to struggle. Alarm bells are ringing......

A lot of questions could be answered if someone could get a breakdown of the Admin & Operational costs. ie how fixed are they ?

grand aigle
14-08-2014, 11:05 AM
:hi:

you all miss the weeds?

Are all your warnings and predictions on overspending coming home to roost, i guess you'd love them to? It's still a little to early to tell for sure, but, being upfront and genuine, the signs are not good at all..... everything points today to the club having financial issues.

The last manager did one, as he felt the club weakened not strengthened in january, and now rumours abound that Hypia may have offered his resignation.... the FACTS (this is your cue Old Git!), are that we've sold a fair few players for a good few millions, Bridcutt, Barnes, Ulloa and Buckley plus removed other higher earners off the wages and in return we've got pretty much nothing except Stockdale and an ex barnsley forward.

4 seasons on and the promised transport system is still nowhere near finished..... but the big issue is whats really going on behind the scenes. maybe monkeyboy Poyet was right.

These are not the actions of a club harbouring genuine ambitions towards the PL. Something behind the scenes is very wrong, just about every player we want that is wanted by another club, like Adam Clayton ends up not coming to Brighton..... All the While ST prices are up, matchday food/drinks is going up and we're getting the old FFP bullshit as the reason. Nobody really believes it.

Is Bloom personally skint? who knows. Did he pay for the club with his money or did he leverage himself up to the eyeballs? who knows..... But the club is selling its silver and replacing it with tin or nothing at all..... when all is said and done, its about the team on the pitch and the success or failure that brings, as it stands I'm worried for where its going, no doubt if the team is not improved quickly, the plastics will once again disappear and the real fans (about 6000 according to you!!), will be left.

category one acadamy status is all good and well for the 2020 season, but this season it means nothing

Right now we need the truth, not corporate flannel, the truth.... if we're skint, so be it, as the wise among you have said, it is better to accept a lower league standing within your means than to do a Pompey...... But be upfront, everything price related is going up in cost, theyre still promising a competitve team and they have one of the biggest matchday revenues in ST sales of any Championship club, but still the best players are sold and not replaced and on last weekends performance we're going to struggle. Alarm bells are ringing......

Wow a sensible post from a Brighton fan, on here, that's a first......well done WHP. !

dannyb1
14-08-2014, 11:12 AM
Wow a sensible post from a Brighton fan, on here, that's a first......well done WHP. !

Actually have to agree there, well put WHP.

Pidster
14-08-2014, 11:19 AM
Not just trains, but roads and park and rides n shit.


I think they sorted out the shit....and look where it got them.


BTW Fairplay to WHP for coming on and being ( mostly ).

eaglejez
14-08-2014, 11:44 AM
yep - well done WHP.

Would be good if others closer to the nos could give some info on why people shouldn't be worried. In particular the Amin & Op costs that no one knows anything about

Shoreditch CPFC
14-08-2014, 11:46 AM
maybe monkeyboy Poyet was right.


Changing tack a bit, but did it ever come out why he was sacked and who did the dump and whether it was all related? It seemed incredible not to be, but that was the official line.

eaglejez
14-08-2014, 11:54 AM
Changing tack a bit, but did it ever come out why he was sacked and who did the dump and whether it was all related? It seemed incredible not to be, but that was the official line.

nothing in the accounts ;)

Chris K
14-08-2014, 12:09 PM
Good and interesting post WHP. It'd be interesting to hear the views on those in that thread that stopped reading after 30 seconds and or discarded it all as rubbish. They obviously have the key to the information that would put an end to our discussions

cpfcfly
14-08-2014, 12:12 PM
That is of course if you accept that the stadium cost £120 million.

That figure has never been confirmed and many have suggested that the true cost of the Stadium is significantly less than that. It would be a handy trick to claim the Stadium cost more than it did, charge a level of inflated rent to recoup this figure, whilst at the same time claiming you weren't charging interest. You wouldn't need to.

VHA called this economic model "BLOOMFLATION".
There are rumours that my university actually owns the stadium. It is uni land after all...

biggus mickus
14-08-2014, 01:39 PM
:hi:

you all miss the weeds?

Are all your warnings and predictions on overspending coming home to roost, i guess you'd love them to? It's still a little to early to tell for sure, but, being upfront and genuine, the signs are not good at all..... everything points today to the club having financial issues.

The last manager did one, as he felt the club weakened not strengthened in january, and now rumours abound that Hypia may have offered his resignation.... the FACTS (this is your cue Old Git!), are that we've sold a fair few players for a good few millions, Bridcutt, Barnes, Ulloa and Buckley plus removed other higher earners off the wages and in return we've got pretty much nothing except Stockdale and an ex barnsley forward.

4 seasons on and the promised transport system is still nowhere near finished..... but the big issue is whats really going on behind the scenes. maybe monkeyboy Poyet was right.

These are not the actions of a club harbouring genuine ambitions towards the PL. Something behind the scenes is very wrong, just about every player we want that is wanted by another club, like Adam Clayton ends up not coming to Brighton..... All the While ST prices are up, matchday food/drinks is going up and we're getting the old FFP bullshit as the reason. Nobody really believes it.

Is Bloom personally skint? who knows. Did he pay for the club with his money or did he leverage himself up to the eyeballs? who knows..... But the club is selling its silver and replacing it with tin or nothing at all..... when all is said and done, its about the team on the pitch and the success or failure that brings, as it stands I'm worried for where its going, no doubt if the team is not improved quickly, the plastics will once again disappear and the real fans (about 6000 according to you!!), will be left.

category one acadamy status is all good and well for the 2020 season, but this season it means nothing

Right now we need the truth, not corporate flannel, the truth.... if we're skint, so be it, as the wise among you have said, it is better to accept a lower league standing within your means than to do a Pompey...... But be upfront, everything price related is going up in cost, theyre still promising a competitve team and they have one of the biggest matchday revenues in ST sales of any Championship club, but still the best players are sold and not replaced and on last weekends performance we're going to struggle. Alarm bells are ringing......

Big up to you for this post. I, like many on here can't stand your club, hate it, detest it. No way would I want you to go through the same hell we did with admin. Whats the point of hating something, that does not exist. Plus, I love taking the piss, when back in Burwash.

Cleon
30-08-2014, 08:01 AM
Looks like NSC picked up the baton but are equally in the dark around the finances of their lord and master:

http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?307457-Article-Tony-Bloom-International-Man-of-Mystery

Never mind though, blind faith will see them through....

PS I note the point about Directorships, but even then a Director doesn't mean you have 100% of the business of any of those companies

relegatedeagle
30-08-2014, 09:47 AM
There are rumours that my university actually owns the stadium. It is uni land after all...

If you read the planning documents the land the stadium was built on, was owned by Brighton Council and was at the time leased to the farmer I believe.
This land in the application was earmarked by the council for development and at one stage the rumour was that it was to be the site for a possible new hospital for the town.

eaglejez
30-08-2014, 10:38 AM
I know I keep harping on about it but the main question should be how fixed are the Admin & Op costs ie if they cannot be reduced substantially Brighton are going bust at some point unless they get promoted or Bloom can underwrite >8m losses permanently

Look at my summary at the start of this thread and do the maths. Very happy to be proved wrong since for all our laughter I wouldn't wish admin on any club

old git
30-08-2014, 10:56 AM
I know I keep harping on about it but the main question should be how fixed are the Admin & Op costs ie if they cannot be reduced substantially Brighton are going bust at some point unless they get promoted or Bloom can underwrite >8m losses permanently

Look at my summary at the start of this thread and do the maths. Very happy to be proved wrong since for all our laughter I wouldn't wish admin on any club

Bloom is a billionaire don't you know.The well informed on NSC say so.:D

Adlerhorst
30-08-2014, 11:02 AM
I know I keep harping on about it but the main question should be how fixed are the Admin & Op costs1. Yes you do
2. Haven't you worked it out by now

eaglejez
30-08-2014, 05:18 PM
1. Yes you do
2. Haven't you worked it out by now

Nope. No info on these or Blooms wealth
Amazed that no Brighton fans care about either

wigman
30-08-2014, 06:48 PM
Bloom is a billionaire don't you know.The well informed on NSC say so.:D

He has spent upwards of 150 million on the Albion, so he must be worth a few quid.

Arron
30-08-2014, 06:52 PM
He has spent upwards of 150 million on the Albion, so he must have borrowed a few quid.

EFA

Penstone Eagle
30-08-2014, 07:22 PM
He has spent upwards of 150 million on the Albion, so he must be losing a few quid.

EFA

RobCPFC1982
30-08-2014, 07:32 PM
He has spent upwards of 150 million on the Albion, but we're still shit.

EFA.

Pidster
30-08-2014, 07:45 PM
"A multi million pound asset. Hope we can hang on to him as he's likely to become the best defender we've ever produced. " (http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?308199-Lewis-Dunk-Our-Top-Scorer)


Didn't he score a blinder at Anfield?

thereichstuff
30-08-2014, 07:46 PM
He has spent upwards of 150 million on the Albion, so he must be worth a few quid.

Is it his money ? There's no doubt he wealthy but it's all abit mysterious .

wigman
30-08-2014, 07:56 PM
Is it his money ? There's no doubt he wealthy but it's all abit mysterious .

Only TB can answer that.

thereichstuff
30-08-2014, 08:00 PM
Only TB can answer that.

True , he hides his money very well wiggers .

Pidster
30-08-2014, 08:24 PM
A point off Charlton...... open up the Bolly.

Big Gav
30-08-2014, 08:38 PM
He has spent upwards of 150 million on the Albion, what a ******* mug

EFA

wigman
30-08-2014, 08:40 PM
He has spent upwards of 150 million on the Albion, what a ******* mug

EFA
He is a hero down these parts.

eaglejez
30-08-2014, 09:44 PM
He has spent upwards of 150 million on the Albion, so he must be worth a few quid.

Family offices usually have debt facilities esp those in property

Penstone Eagle
31-08-2014, 06:29 AM
He is a hero down these parts.

I'm sure he is to the 7000 hardcore fans, the rest that have turned up just take it all for granted.

ExeterEagle
31-08-2014, 09:38 AM
He has spent upwards of 150 million on the Albion, so he must be worth a few quid.

That just makes him 150m poorer, not richer! Hope it's not borrowed money, he does like a gamble.

ExeterEagle
31-08-2014, 09:40 AM
Looks like NSC picked up the baton but are equally in the dark around the finances of their lord and master:

http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?307457-Article-Tony-Bloom-International-Man-of-Mystery

Never mind though, blind faith will see them through....

PS I note the point about Directorships, but even then a Director doesn't mean you have 100% of the business of any of those companies

Given the moral high ground they take over our finances and administrations, strange that thread hasn't received more interest.

eaglejez
31-08-2014, 09:50 AM
Given the moral high ground they take over our finances and administrations, strange that thread hasn't received more interest.

exactly - basically decides the whole future of their club. From the way they have been doing their transfers it doesn't look good for them. 30K or 20K crowds - they are essentially an irrelevance for them regarding their finances

Pikie Punisher
31-08-2014, 01:21 PM
He is a hero down these parts.

Oo-er missis!

eaglejez
06-09-2014, 04:51 PM
Got mentioned on dispatches on NSC and tried to engage the more intelligent ones with the killer question but, er, I don't think there are any intelligent ones :D

Phil's Barber
07-09-2014, 12:01 AM
Given the moral high ground they take over our finances and administrations, strange that thread hasn't received more interest.

This thread is like BHAFC finances. The interest comes later.

eaglejez
07-09-2014, 09:51 AM
This thread is like BHAFC finances. The interest comes later.

:D

Jim Cannon
14-09-2014, 08:14 PM
He has spunked upwards of 150 million on the Albion, so he must be one rich fecking mug.

EFA

hdeagle
17-09-2014, 02:16 PM
I wonder how their crowds will suffer now that they are on a downward spiral, which will result in more lost revenue.

eaglejez
17-09-2014, 03:46 PM
I wonder how their crowds will suffer now that they are on a downward spiral, which will result in more lost revenue.

they've already paid and have to pay quite a bit to cancel. Won't be a big drop til next season although as I keep saying the crowds don't make that much difference to their financial position

Cleon
18-09-2014, 06:01 AM
Their finances suggest they've bet everything on promotion, but the sale of Ulloa and Buckley will presumably mean that they don't fall foul of FFP this year.

Who will they be able to sell next year?

Jim Cannon
18-09-2014, 07:21 AM
Their finances suggest they've bet everything on promotion, but the sale of Ulloa and Buckley will presumably mean that they don't fall foul of FFP this year.

Who will they be able to sell next year?

I think it's more a case of who will want to stay surely

eaglejez
18-09-2014, 08:38 AM
Their finances suggest they've bet everything on promotion, but the sale of Ulloa and Buckley will presumably mean that they don't fall foul of FFP this year.

Who will they be able to sell next year?

those transfers were for YE June 2015. Its the YE14 they have to worry about. Will be interesting to see how they reduce the 14m loss to 8m

Pidster
18-09-2014, 09:08 AM
those transfers were for YE June 2015. Its the YE14 they have to worry about. Will be interesting to see how they reduce the 14m loss to 8m

Can they use some of Lewis Dunk's legal fees against it?

Richard Russell
18-09-2014, 03:23 PM
Some background reading on Tony Bloom. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2200795-mugs-and-millionaires-inside-the-murky-world-of-professional-football-gambling)

Enjoy.

old git
18-09-2014, 03:31 PM
Some background reading on Tony Bloom. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2200795-mugs-and-millionaires-inside-the-murky-world-of-professional-football-gambling)

Enjoy.
Interesting read.
Still no wiser on big nose's wealth though.:p

CP Satellite
18-09-2014, 03:37 PM
Some background reading on Tony Bloom. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2200795-mugs-and-millionaires-inside-the-murky-world-of-professional-football-gambling)

Enjoy.

These 'algorithims', Richard, when do they say Brighton will be any good?

Pidster
18-09-2014, 03:38 PM
Nice picture of Tiny Bloom and Gustavo holding some lower league trophy.

eagle mart
18-09-2014, 04:07 PM
I enjoyed that. Must have been a right bitch knowing he had bet his investors money on Brighton losing to us, and had to sit there already knowing the outcome. No wonder he was so gracious in defeat.

The problem with these algorithms is that things are always changing, what works and catches on one year doesn't the next. A guy at work had a successful system on the horses. It worked for a year, before things evolved and factors changed, and he couldn't get it to work again. I guess that maybe that proves the point of the article is trying to make. But for me bookies will always catch on...

Richard Russell
18-09-2014, 05:59 PM
These 'algorithims', Richard, when do they say Brighton will be any good?Saturday onwards.

:p

Pistol Knight
18-09-2014, 06:43 PM
Some background reading on Tony Bloom. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2200795-mugs-and-millionaires-inside-the-murky-world-of-professional-football-gambling)

Enjoy.

Bloom is rumoured to be worth more than £1 billion

And Santa is real

fang
18-09-2014, 06:48 PM
Some background reading on Tony Bloom. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2200795-mugs-and-millionaires-inside-the-murky-world-of-professional-football-gambling)

Enjoy.

A bit like reading a thread on the NSC. "He's rumoured to be worth....etc" . If it was written by an investegative financial journalist, it might have a tad, just a tad, more credibility. But it's a sports hack recycling the same old hearsay. All we can gather from the article is that Mr Blooms business activities are effectively shrouded from the sort of public/regulatory scrutiny other football Chairmans business activities are subject to.

The article, indirectly, raises the question as to whether somone in his line of work is a fit and proper person to be running an English club.

grand aigle
18-09-2014, 07:12 PM
And Santa is real

You mean he isn't? NOOOOOOO!!

Pistol Knight
18-09-2014, 07:20 PM
You mean he isn't? NOOOOOOO!!

I should have labelled that post [Spoiler alert] :D

Cleon
18-09-2014, 07:35 PM
How is Bloom worth £1bn whilst his business is worth £3.5m?

old git
18-09-2014, 07:42 PM
How is Bloom worth £1bn whilst his business is worth £3.5m?
The same way that CMS cost £3.5 million when his real value was £0.33.

Chris K
18-09-2014, 08:11 PM
Genuine question rather than any sort of dig but if there's a global ban on players and coaches down to the eighth tier (ie village teams) then how come TB is able to run a company that has a minimum £2m account opening spend? Seems like a huge potential for conflict of interests

Bipe
18-09-2014, 08:29 PM
I play vets football with a professional gambler. He's doing well enough to employ staff and drive a rather swanky Aston Martin. Anyway, he tells me that tennis matches and predicting which football games will be draws at half time are where the value really is. He's an algorithm man.

Maybe he could buy Brighton in a couple of years

hdeagle
19-09-2014, 12:30 PM
A shame then that there are now limits as to how much money a rich club owner can financially support their club with before falling foul of the FFP Regulations and the huge penalties for falling foul of them.

eaglejez
19-09-2014, 01:10 PM
again no evidence that he's worth that much. Star Lizard has a net worth of 3.4m so we can just about rule out much of a fortune from gambling (all the other companies he's been linked with were sold for little or are worth relatively little).

Obviously managed to raise 150m somehow so not in the poor house (well, maybe not then !) but how much is leveraged. Who is the ultimate lender / financier ?

So the only place on the internet where he's supposed to be fabulously wealthy is NSC. Zero evidence anywhere else.

Jim Cannon
19-09-2014, 01:19 PM
The same way that CMS cost £3.5 million when his real value was £0.33.

Have those mugs given him a new contract? Otherwise he will realise his true value of £0 soon

eaglejez
19-09-2014, 01:29 PM
the Tarquins on NSC still seem to assume they are going to comply with FPP for YE14. A £14m loss reduced to £8m ? Gonna be interesting to see how they do it

Selhurst Celtic
19-09-2014, 02:07 PM
Interesting read.
Still no wiser on big nose's wealth though.:p

They're discussing that report on NSC now & cupping the Penguin's balls and hoovering down on his second largest appendage.

The Tarquins truly are a strange breed.

GreatGonzo
19-09-2014, 03:20 PM
the Tarquins on NSC still seem to assume they are going to comply with FPP for YE14. A £14m loss reduced to £8m ? Gonna be interesting to see how they do it

They don't necessarily need YE14 to comply.

They will be given a transfer ban if they did not comply which will stay in force until they can prove they are now within the rules.

So what hapes i on Jan 2nd BHA can show that they are now within FFP? Surely the ban is lifted and then there is little real punishment.

Looking at their squad this year it looks very much like they can prove they are within FFP having lost all their high earners and replaced them with L1/L2 quality replacements! They will also have the Ulloa fee.

Ninjas Headband
19-09-2014, 03:30 PM
again no evidence that he's worth that much. Star Lizard has a net worth of 3.4m so we can just about rule out much of a fortune from gambling (all the other companies he's been linked with were sold for little or are worth relatively little).

Obviously managed to raise 150m somehow so not in the poor house (well, maybe not then !) but how much is leveraged. Who is the ultimate lender / financier ?

So the only place on the internet where he's supposed to be fabulously wealthy is NSC. Zero evidence anywhere else.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/South_Sea_Bubble_Cards-Tree.png

eaglejez
19-09-2014, 04:22 PM
They don't necessarily need YE14 to comply.

They will be given a transfer ban if they did not comply which will stay in force until they can prove they are now within the rules.

So what hapes i on Jan 2nd BHA can show that they are now within FFP? Surely the ban is lifted and then there is little real punishment.

Looking at their squad this year it looks very much like they can prove they are within FFP having lost all their high earners and replaced them with L1/L2 quality replacements! They will also have the Ulloa fee.

but if they didn't comply even for 6 months it would be unbelievably hilarious :D

Richard Russell
19-09-2014, 08:53 PM
the Tarquins on NSC still seem to assume they are going to comply with FPP for YE14. A £14m loss reduced to £8m ? Gonna be interesting to see how they do it*We sold Bridcutt, Barnes and El-Abd in January which raised £3.5m+
*Vicente and Bridge released which will have saved a few bob on wages.
*There was apparently a certain amount of front loading in those 2013 accounts which bumped them up (one off payments for the electric advertising boards quoted).
*2014 was the first year of our more lucrative American Express shirt sponsership.

Happy to help.

:p

Big Gav
19-09-2014, 09:08 PM
Was the cost of clackers or songsheets logged in the accounts?

Richard Russell
19-09-2014, 09:22 PM
Was the cost of clackers or songsheets logged in the accounts?The clackers were (we didn't have song sheets).

eaglejez
19-09-2014, 09:43 PM
*We sold Bridcutt, Barnes and El-Abd in January which raised £3.5m+
*Vicente and Bridge released which will have saved a few bob on wages.
*There was apparently a certain amount of front loading in those 2013 accounts which bumped them up (one off payments for the electric advertising boards quoted).
*2014 was the first year of our more lucrative American Express shirt sponsership.

Happy to help.

:p

The 3.5m won't all be profit due to having to deduct off the unamortised contracts
The wages saved wouldn't be much more than 2m ?
The sponsorship is pennies in the scheme of things
There was no mention of front loaded costs apart from redundancy payments in the admin & op costs section

I'm assuming you would have made it down to 8m (loss) else someone would have mentioned it by now. Congratulations :)

Richard Russell
19-09-2014, 10:02 PM
The 3.5m won't all be profit due to having to deduct off the unamortised contracts
The wages saved wouldn't be much more than 2m ?
The sponsorship is pennies in the scheme of things
There was no mention of front loaded costs apart from redundancy payments in the admin & op costs section

I'm assuming you would have made it down to 8m (loss) else someone would have mentioned it by now. Congratulations :)Thank you.

The club seem pretty confident of hitting the FFP targets, we'll find out soon enough. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Palace are to be applauded as well in their frugal approach to PL life. That Pulis was a ticking time bomb with his fancy notions of signing players.

:D

ebyeeckeagle
19-09-2014, 10:34 PM
Genuine question rather than any sort of dig but if there's a global ban on players and coaches down to the eighth tier (ie village teams) then how come TB is able to run a company that has a minimum £2m account opening spend? Seems like a huge potential for conflict of interests

Can of worms!

Richard Russell
19-09-2014, 11:04 PM
Can of worms!We'll worry about that when he pulls his football boots on.

:p

Penstone Eagle
20-09-2014, 05:22 AM
Was the cost of clackers or songsheets logged in the accounts?


To be fair they have gone digital now and the words are on the big screens :p

eaglejez
20-09-2014, 08:16 AM
Thank you.

The club seem pretty confident of hitting the FFP targets, we'll find out soon enough. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Palace are to be applauded as well in their frugal approach to PL life. That Pulis was a ticking time bomb with his fancy notions of signing players.

:D

as I keep going on about (anyone would think Im being boring ;)) Brighton fans need to understand what the Admin & Op costs are and in particular are the effectively fixed ie there forever

Penstone Eagle
20-09-2014, 08:48 AM
as I keep going on about (anyone would think Im being boring ;)) Brighton fans need to understand what the Admin & Op costs are and in particular are the effectively fixed ie there forever

I think it's quite clear that B'ton fans are quite selective regarding their understanding of financial matters.

CP Satellite
20-09-2014, 06:54 PM
These 'algorithims', Richard, when do they say Brighton will be any good?

Saturday onwards.

:p

I think I've spotted a flaw in your argument, Richard.

Penstone Eagle
20-09-2014, 07:17 PM
I think I've spotted a flaw in your argument, Richard.


Think he's done a Londoner :D :p

ExeterEagle
20-09-2014, 10:26 PM
It's interesting what football allegiance does to a man. A Brighton fan, evidently riled by the reasonable questioning of Palace fans as to where Tony Bloom has got his money from. He lays down the link in a smug manner as though it's the smoking gun which has got the answer to stop the debate dead in its tracks.

The link takes us to a speculative article on blog suggesting Tony Bloom has got a shiny building in north London and might make good money from it. The author even speculates he 'might be a billionaire'. To a Brighton fan it's music to their ears - all is well.

But I think it's what I call chelsea syndrome - the blinkering effect football allegiance has on fans. Chelsea fans don't want to ask questions of their owner for fear of realising the truth.

The same appears to be true of Brighton fans. Are they asking themselves a few basic questions. Is it likely a man in a high profile position will be really able to hide is wealth so well so there is no trace of it to the naked eye? Are there betting markets deep enough to put a billion pounds to work and make a good return from it? Why is he hiding his money? Is it to avoid tax and are they happy depriving the country's education system to sit on a padded seat?

But I guess Brighton fans are stupid and this blog works for them....

Stellavista
21-09-2014, 12:35 AM
Nice ad popping up on NSC today, for the attention of Tony Bloom:

http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/simgad/7493144467298024199

mpfn
21-09-2014, 07:01 AM
It's interesting what football allegiance does to a man. A Brighton fan, evidently riled by the reasonable questioning of Palace fans as to where Tony Bloom has got his money from. He lays down the link in a smug manner as though it's the smoking gun which has got the answer to stop the debate dead in its tracks.

The link takes us to a speculative article on blog suggesting Tony Bloom has got a shiny building in north London and might make good money from it. The author even speculates he 'might be a billionaire'. To a Brighton fan it's music to their ears - all is well.

But I think it's what I call chelsea syndrome - the blinkering effect football allegiance has on fans. Chelsea fans don't want to ask questions of their owner for fear of realising the truth.

The same appears to be true of Brighton fans. Are they asking themselves a few basic questions. Is it likely a man in a high profile position will be really able to hide is wealth so well so there is no trace of it to the naked eye? Are there betting markets deep enough to put a billion pounds to work and make a good return from it? Why is he hiding his money? Is it to avoid tax and are they happy depriving the country's education system to sit on a padded seat?

But I guess Brighton fans are stupid and this blog works for them....

El Presidente , the NSC's financial expert, has published Star Lizard Consulting Ltd ( Blooms betting company) accounts,and they had a turnover of £12 million last year, a tidy sum, but not billionaire league.
So where is the money coming from ?

spuddy
21-09-2014, 07:23 AM
Personally I think they will be in the FFP regulations when the accounts get released this year as they have made some serious cost cutting this year in many aspects of the club.

The problem for them comes going forward. They can't cut costs any further which means the playing budget will now be very tight. It's a vicious cycle as lack of a good side creates poor results which creates discontent with fans & an inevitable drop in attendances & lower sponsorship deals which in time leads to lower income & less cash to spend.

A fair bit of their outgoings where bought forward to this season as one off costs so they are now out the way for the FFP regulations in the future. As stated before the operating costs are massive & if (as is probable) they are fixed costs year on year then they are a big worry going forward & they will be reliant on selling a player every season for good money to keep costs under control yet do they have the players coming through to sell for good money? That's very debatable.

eaglejez
21-09-2014, 09:49 AM
El Presidente , the NSC's financial expert, has published Star Lizard Consulting Ltd ( Blooms betting company) accounts,and they had a turnover of £12 million last year, a tidy sum, but not billionaire league.
So where is the money coming from ?

its net worth is 3.4m. Turnover is a meaningly number (in the scheme of this argument)

eaglejez
21-09-2014, 10:02 AM
It's interesting what football allegiance does to a man. A Brighton fan, evidently riled by the reasonable questioning of Palace fans as to where Tony Bloom has got his money from. He lays down the link in a smug manner as though it's the smoking gun which has got the answer to stop the debate dead in its tracks.

The link takes us to a speculative article on blog suggesting Tony Bloom has got a shiny building in north London and might make good money from it. The author even speculates he 'might be a billionaire'. To a Brighton fan it's music to their ears - all is well.

But I think it's what I call chelsea syndrome - the blinkering effect football allegiance has on fans. Chelsea fans don't want to ask questions of their owner for fear of realising the truth.

The same appears to be true of Brighton fans. Are they asking themselves a few basic questions. Is it likely a man in a high profile position will be really able to hide is wealth so well so there is no trace of it to the naked eye? Are there betting markets deep enough to put a billion pounds to work and make a good return from it? Why is he hiding his money? Is it to avoid tax and are they happy depriving the country's education system to sit on a padded seat?

But I guess Brighton fans are stupid and this blog works for them....

what blog ? have you a link ? Or is it that stupid gambling one you are referring to ? Ie another with no evidence whatsoever about TB's wealth :)

Richard Russell
21-09-2014, 06:07 PM
I think I've spotted a flaw in your argument, Richard.I didn't say which Saturday.

:p

Vince Hilaire's Afro
21-09-2014, 06:31 PM
Has anyone worked out how much it would have helped their finances if they'd not lost against us in the playoffs, and gone up in our place (I know they'd have still had to beat Watford, but like the game against us, that would be a given)

Ninjas Headband
21-09-2014, 06:52 PM
In an alternate universe where they won the semi, the final and just finished 11th in the Premier League...TV rights, increased ticket sales, sponsorship and other commercial sales would rake them in an extra £80-90 million on top of their current revenue.

Luckily for Brighton it doesn't matter as their owner is worth billions. (In an alternate universe).

Pidster
21-09-2014, 07:49 PM
Has anyone worked out how much it would have helped their finances if they'd not lost against us in the playoffs, and gone up in our place (I know they'd have still had to beat Watford, but like the game against us, that would be a given)

Small beer compared with the revenue the hotel (YMCA? )will bring in.

eaglejez
16-10-2014, 08:17 AM
http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?310783-Albion-losing-one-million-a-month/page3

A lot of their questions answered at the start of this thread. I'm not going to ask my usual question

AndyStreet
16-10-2014, 08:47 AM
http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?310783-Albion-losing-one-million-a-month/page3

A lot of their questions answered at the start of this thread. I'm not going to ask my usual question
What is your usual question?

Billyd
16-10-2014, 09:02 AM
Havent they sold Ulloa and Bridcutt since their last financial records?

eaglejez
16-10-2014, 09:03 AM
What is your usual question?

what is the breakdown of the 'Administration & Operational Costs' ? These seem to be semi fixed overheads since they haven't changed much and indeed one of their previous accounts stated they are a consequence of having a state of the art stadium. If they really are fixed then Brighton are effectively totally and utterly screwed financially and will keep losing untold millions forever mitigated by the odd profitable player sale.

Hopefully for their sake when there eventually is a break down then it will be shown that a big chunk of that cost can be reduced. If I was a Brighton fan that would be the one thing I would be answering.

Most people do not really understand the finances of football. A lot of their fans still seem to think that their big crowds mean they should be making massive profits. They obviously haven't looked at their accounts in much detail (see summary attachment in post 1 that shows how increasing their crowds by 50% would make little difference)

eaglejez
16-10-2014, 09:04 AM
Havent they sold Ulloa and Bridcutt since their last financial records?

they would come in for YE14/15

CP1
16-10-2014, 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by Return of the Rev View Post

There has been a major cock up on the number crunching pre-falmer,we were around 5 million in debt when we sold the goldstone and now we have lost around 30 million since moving into the amex!
Looks like the cost of the academy will drain any increase in sponsorship and gate receipts are falling and could continue to fall. Not looking good whatever the club do it will alienate another portion from the season ticket holders.When i suggested things that were not right at the amex i got the standard well f**k off there's a waiting list Tony Bloom has been fantastic but you don't make his money by flushing it down a big hole. The amex was the stadium that was meant to make us money 7 days a week a community stadium.Burgess hill have the green elephant ground and the amex is looking like the White Elephant

LOL

Chris K
16-10-2014, 12:50 PM
There seems to be a big assumption that Barber was quoting the last set of accounts from a couple of years back. That may be true but I'd have thought the CEO would get such information from the monthly management accounts which whilst not being published accounts will be provide insight into the current position of the business.

little al
16-10-2014, 01:00 PM
Paul Barber has replied to that thread via Bozza on NSC http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?310810-Paul-Barber-on-communication-transparency-finances-the-fans-and-club-staff

GreatGonzo
16-10-2014, 02:00 PM
Could the reason that Paul Barber has not met a more open, honest, transparent and friendly board in his time at Brighton be because whilst they are Premier League Ready, Palace are actually playing there?

thereichstuff
16-10-2014, 02:21 PM
Havent they sold Ulloa and Bridcutt since their last financial records?

Dunk will be the next to leave for mega mulla ( their words not mine ) :clown:

danpalace07
16-10-2014, 02:45 PM
Dunk will be the next to leave for mega mulla ( their words not mine ) :clown:

£500k and a packet of Monster Munch?

Selhurst Celtic
16-10-2014, 02:48 PM
Dunk will be the next to leave for mega mulla ( their words not mine ) :clown:

A sideways move to Everton perhaps?

(The Tarquins actually said this once)

thereichstuff
16-10-2014, 02:59 PM
A sideways move to Everton perhaps?

(The Tarquins actually said this once)

Could Everton afford him ?

danpalace07
16-10-2014, 04:30 PM
Could Everton afford him ?

I know they stretched their budget to get Lukaku for £28m but surely Calamity Dunk is beyond them

spuddy
16-10-2014, 05:12 PM
Paul Barber has replied to that thread via Bozza on NSC http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?310810-Paul-Barber-on-communication-transparency-finances-the-fans-and-club-staff


On their clubs finances barber says this

'Like most Championship clubs, this club is losing a lot of money; we know this, the owner knows it, the board knows it, the staff know it, the media knows it – and, yes, the supporters should know it too. We don’t make a secret of it because we’ve nothing to hide; there’s no creative accounting, no tricks, it is what it is and there’s nothing for us to gain by presenting things any other way

We’re managing it, (we like to think!) we know what we’re doing, and, closely monitored by a board made up of 7 vastly experienced non executive directors (and only 3 executive directors), it’s part of a controlled strategy to get out of this division, backed by our owner (who some people seem to forget - or gloss over - has already invested over £200 million in this football club).

As I've repeatedly explained, Championship revenues – even the best of them like ours – do not produce income to support a promotion-chasing playing budget. As such, and as much as we want to be self-sufficient, we rely on Tony’s generous subsidy (other Championship-challenging clubs are similarly subsided by their owners or through parachute payments or, in some cases, both!


Then one of the posters on their replied with this :)

'Excellent answers from Paul - we are a magnificently run football club. From Archer to this is amazing. I'm so proud of this club.'


Oh dear somebody ought to inform that particular deluded fan.

Pistol Knight
16-10-2014, 05:27 PM
Dunk will be the next to leave for mega mulla ( their words not mine ) :clown:

what about Kaz!!!

eaglejez
16-10-2014, 05:57 PM
It's incredible. They lose millions even though they take all of the extra income from the Slopey but ignore the financing costs. A massive unfair advantage. You'd think they'd keep quiet but no the Tarquins still think they are morally better than other clubs :eek:

Big Gav
16-10-2014, 06:06 PM
Its ok CMS can always be sold to cover the debt for 30m plus when Real Madrid come knocking

thereichstuff
16-10-2014, 06:38 PM
what about Kaz!!!

Yeah someone should" get him "!

100% Palace
17-10-2014, 11:14 AM
He's going a bit far calling them a promotion chasing Championship club.

Also, £200m on that! Jeez.

passion4palace
17-10-2014, 11:19 AM
Even if they do get to the Premier League, how long will it take to get a return on that £200m investment!?! TB wants to hope he lives a long time if he's gonna see any of his money again!

Ninjas Headband
17-10-2014, 12:19 PM
*Snigger*

Vince Hilaire's Afro
17-10-2014, 01:20 PM
A lot of them have swallowed Barber's predictable rhetoric, which is surprising seeing as it mainly consists of 'we have to cut costs and be sustainable' (fair enough) 'whilst in the meantime charge you more for season tickets and concessions even though the team will decline in quality unless we strike lucky with an academy product, or something, boo hoo FFP and parachute payments are so unfair, we've got no chance'.

chav_hater
17-10-2014, 01:36 PM
Where on earth does Tony Bloom get 200m from?

Vince Hilaire's Afro
17-10-2014, 01:40 PM
Where on earth does Tony Bloom get 200m from?

This question has been asked of our Brighton chums on numerous occasions (for alas Tony himself is somewhat coy on the issue) and a simple cross referencing of the data accumulated by the replies comes up with the response 'leprechauns and magical unicorns'

Selhurst Celtic
17-10-2014, 01:51 PM
Where on earth does Tony Bloom get 200m from?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YsrghimGTpU/TQQNm3ERElI/AAAAAAAAAEQ/S1dHqrAhT7M/s320/Penguin.png

eaglejez
17-10-2014, 02:24 PM
interesting that they obviously are going to get the loss to <8m for YE14 from 14m but it makes you wonder how ?!!

Adlerhorst
17-10-2014, 02:40 PM
interesting that they obviously are going to get the loss to <8m for YE14 from 14m but it makes you wonder how ?!!If the stadium is out of the FFP calculation (which if true is outrageous) then you'd strip out the depreciation on that / or lease payment or whatever it is they did with it in the end.

dim
17-10-2014, 03:12 PM
TBF, Palace were losing £5M a year a couple of years back. Thank the lord for Wilfried as I think they would have beaten Watford. The nature of the result looks pretty defining in those terms.

eaglejez
17-10-2014, 03:19 PM
If the stadium is out of the FFP calculation (which if true is outrageous) then you'd strip out the depreciation on that / or lease payment or whatever it is they did with it in the end.

no depreciation so far. When you say strip out the stadium what do you mean ? Shirley they aren't talking about excluding stadium operating costs ?

Adlerhorst
17-10-2014, 03:21 PM
no depreciation so far. When you say strip out the stadium what do you mean ? Shirley they aren't talking about excluding stadium operating costs ?You'd have to check the precise rules for the championship, last time I cared enough to bother looking for them they were not readily available.

hdeagle
17-10-2014, 03:41 PM
Brighton are going to get out of the Championship by getting relegated to League One which will then cut their overheads.

All part of their master plan for world domination.

Billy Rhino
17-10-2014, 04:51 PM
L1R

little al
17-10-2014, 05:29 PM
Barber - Why Brighton lose £1m per month.

http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?310851-Paul-Barber-Why-the-Albion-lose-%A31m-a-month

old git
17-10-2014, 05:52 PM
Barber - Why Brighton lose £1m per month.

http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?310851-Paul-Barber-Why-the-Albion-lose-%A31m-a-month

I love the way Barber beats on about the unfairness of parachute payments and that the weed have not benefited from them.I wonder why that is?:D
Of course if by some miracle the Tarquins get promoted ,the self proclaimed guardians of football morality will share the wonga around.

eaglejez
17-10-2014, 06:40 PM
You'd have to check the precise rules for the championship, last time I cared enough to bother looking for them they were not readily available.

The mega problem with Brighton is the overheads from the stadium. If they are allowed to ignore these but still have the income then FPP is even more pointless than everyone thinks now. Obviously this doesn't change the real position in that they are screwed without Tone

eaglejez
17-10-2014, 06:42 PM
I love the way Barber beats on about the unfairness of parachute payments and that the weed have not benefited from them.I wonder why that is?:D
Of course if by some miracle the Tarquins get promoted ,the self proclaimed guardians of football morality will share the wonga around.

He kinda forgets that the payments from The Premier League are his clubs 2nd highest revenue source :D

Heb 7:4
17-10-2014, 08:19 PM
I'm led to believe that there could be changes afoot to both FFP rules and parachute payment distributions that could be very beneficial to a club run in the way the Albion is. We'll have to wait and see...

Is he talking about teams that have sugar daddy owners pumping in hundreds of millions?

anti-addick
17-10-2014, 09:37 PM
I thought they were ok because they are PLR

spuddy
17-10-2014, 10:04 PM
Barber - Why Brighton lose £1m per month.

http://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?310851-Paul-Barber-Why-the-Albion-lose-%A31m-a-month


To sum his ramblings up if bloom doesn't put his hand in his pocket & bail them out every year with millions they are screwed.

Nth Kent Eagle
18-10-2014, 08:04 AM
Barber's response doesn't say how they are going to reduce their losses? Still a QPR relegation will be incredibly entertaining.

eaglejez
18-10-2014, 08:55 AM
To sum his ramblings up if bloom doesn't put his hand in his pocket & bail them out every year with millions they are screwed.

the reason they are losing 1m pm is on the attachment on page 1 of this thread