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highfields
18-02-2017, 01:17 PM
I guess this may have been discussed before. Apologies if it has.

While clearing out a box of old stuff, I came across a random collection of old programmes. One of them was for 14th March 1970, a home match against Southampton. Of course at this time, Palace were in a relegation battle. Although those were different times, (2 points for a win, 22 teams,42 matches and only two teams relegated), it occurred to me that there were some interesting similarities and differences with Palace’s current predicament. As of March 14th, Palace had played 34 matches won 3 games at home, drawn 4 and lost 10. The home wins were against Sunderland, Stoke and Wolves. They had just won their first away game on March 11th (1-0 at Manchester City), and had drawn 8 away and lost 8. The victory against Man City was their first win in 13 matches since November 22nd. On February 21st Palace had had a ‘four pointer must win game’ at home to Sheffield Wednesday who were bottom of the division, while Palace were third from bottom. Palace duly lost 0-2. Up to 14th March Palace were 21st and Sunderland were bottom. Even though Palace beat Southampton 2-0, Palace remained in 21st spot with 7 games left.
One of the interesting things in the programme was a column called ‘Topical Talk’ by the programme Editor, Doug Organ. In one paragraph he says;

'Nevertheless, with the Club hanging on by its finger-tips to First Division status, it might not be a bad idea if, for the remainder of the season, we reminded ourselves that “NOW IS THE TIME OR ALL GOOD SUPPORTERS TO COME TO THE AID OF THE TEAM” by giving them longer and louder cheers than ever before to show we are right behind them in their fight for points.
There have been a lot of comments, criticisms, recriminations, informed and uninformed advice about what the Club should have done or must do to survive its baptism in the toughest league in soccer.'

He goes on to quote a letter he received from a supporter.

'I know many games have been frustrating and heart breaking to the supporters as, indeed, they must have been to the team and officials. But there have been games when the team has risen above itself – that is why it has been such a mystery and a disappointment when they have fallen on a number of occasions below the standard of which they have proved they can reach.
It would be invidious to mention individuals, for all have played their hearts out and, after all their efforts, it would be cruel if they were relegated, although I don’t think they will be.'

I was trying to remember what the atmosphere at the ground was like at the time. I was 13 years old and without the BBS, you only really gathered what people thought from what people around you on the Holmesdale or others on the way back to Norwood Junction said. If I remember correctly, there was quite a lot of criticism of players’ abilities but not their efforts. Ironically, given the current situation, the one player who I think was never subject to any criticism was John Jackson. Even Steve Kember, who along with Jacko was probably one of Palace’s best players over a number of seasons, was being criticised by some fans. I can remember feeling devastated after the Sheffield Wed game, but I can’t remember if at that point I gave up hope of staying up. However, I remember the jubilation at beating Man City in the last home game of the season to stay up by a single point. In the end, Palace probably survived by grinding out some draws against better teams. Salvaging draws was probably down to Jacko’s heroic performances

Anyone have any clearer memories of this time?

Maiden Eagle
18-02-2017, 01:38 PM
This was my first season of watching the Palace - I don't think I went very much that season but I remember every time I did go, with my dad, we lost ! - West Brom 1-3, Newcastle 0-3, Arsenal 1-5 (but there was the Big Match goal of the Season by George Graham for them !) and I went to the Sheff Wed game, mentioned above.
I think my Father got so fed with all the losses, that he refused to go the FA 3rd Round Cup against Walsall and I was so desperate to go, that I persuaded my (then) Football hating Mother to take me. It was a terrible game but we won 2-0 and my Mum ended up as an ardent Palace fan !
I think we stayed up because of Man City, but not as a result of us beating them - This would never happen now, but Sheff Wed's last game was Vs Man City, was after we had finished our fixtures. They needed a win at Hillsborough to send us down. Of course no live TV or Sky Sports, or even Teletext in those days, so I followed another game on the Radio, with updates on the SW / City game. For ages it was 1-1, but then Man City scored a late winner, to keep us up !!
I think was got a mere 27 pts from 42 games (which would have worked out to 32 pts, nowadays) but enough to keep us up. Lucky ?? Probably, but we had a superb Goalkeeper and a lot of very spirited performers (unlike now !!).

casinocolin
18-02-2017, 01:55 PM
I was at the Man City game just 13 years old, I went with my dad. It was an evening kick off 7.30 and I believe Gerry Queen scored the winner. It was a great win for us as I believe it was the season that Man City went on to win the League Cup & Cup Winners Cup which is now the Europa league. City had Corrigan, Book, Young, Lee & Summerbee playing for them and of course the great Joe Mercer & Big Mal in charge. Great celebrations at the end with a pitch invasion. I seem to remember Big Mal making some not very nice comments about us that season, something like we do not belong in the top league, ironic that a few years later he became our manager and took us down 2 divisions but they were the greatest moments for me as he transformed our club giving us an identity, great times.

N Herts Eagle
18-02-2017, 02:18 PM
I was at the Man City game just 13 years old, I went with my dad. It was an evening kick off 7.30 and I believe Gerry Queen scored the winner. It was a great win for us as I believe it was the season that Man City went on to win the FA Cup & Cup Winners Cup which is now the Europa league. City had Corrigan, Book, Young, Lee & Summerbee playing for them and of course the great Joe Mercer & Big Mal in charge. Great celebrations at the end with a pitch invasion. I seem to remember Big Mal making some not very nice comments about us that season, something like we do not belong in the top league, ironic that a few years later he became our manager and took us down 2 divisions but they were the greatest moments for me as he transformed our club giving us an identity, great times. The season that came down to one game which we were not even involved in...... I found this sums it up no way did I expect Man City to win. http://www.owlstalk.co.uk/forums/topic/149771-were-you-there-manchester-city-home-196970/?page=4

MYEagle
18-02-2017, 02:25 PM
I was also at the Man City game and remember a cold grey wet evening and the Gerry Queen goal literally dribbling across a puddle in the goal mouth and over Corrigan's line -cue mass hysteria in the Holmesdale. The next time I can remember such euphoria was watching the Stockport game in the pub and breaking my chair - much to the amusement of some old biddies in the pub. Certainly `staying up' games live in the memory as much or more than `going up' games

highfields
18-02-2017, 02:43 PM
I had completely forgotten that Wednesday had the game against Man City after our last match. I guess that like Maiden Eagle was glued to the radio and biting the fingernails.

I had also forgotten about George Graham's goal of the season. The thing I remember about that Arsenal game was when Gerry Queen went past Terry Neill who grabbed Gerry's shirt and pulled him back. It was in the penalty area but the ref waved play on even though Gerry's shirt was ripped and hanging off his shoulder. Big teams got the big decisions even then.

If I remember correctly, Roger Hoy's flying header in the Cup against Chelsea was the runner up in the goal of the season.

Maiden Eagle
18-02-2017, 02:59 PM
I had also forgotten about George Graham's goal of the season. The thing I remember about that Arsenal game was when Gerry Queen went past Terry Neill who grabbed Gerry's shirt and pulled him back. It was in the penalty area but the ref waved play on even though Gerry's shirt was ripped and hanging off his shoulder. Big teams got the big decisions even then

What I remember was that they scored in the 1st half and we literally equalised straight from the kick off - Per Bartram, I think got the goal.
And it was 1-1 at HT and everything seemed OK. By about the 55th minute it was 1-5 !!
Think we also lost 1-5 to Chelsea at Selhurst on Boxing Day and 1-4 to them in the Cup - Nothing much changes, then !

casinocolin
18-02-2017, 03:09 PM
The season that came down to one game which we were not even involved in...... I found this sums it up no way did I expect Man City to win. http://www.owlstalk.co.uk/forums/topic/149771-were-you-there-manchester-city-home-196970/?page=4


I noticed that as there was only 2pts for a win back then, if it would of been 3pts we would of been relegated instead of Sheffield Wed on goal difference.

Actual Table
20 Crystal Palace 6 wins 15 draws GD 34 68
21 Sunderland 6 wins 14 draws GD 30 68
22 Sheffield Wednesday 8 wins 9draws GD 40 71

Table if it was 3pts for a win
20 Sheffield Wed 8 wins 9 draws = 33 pts GD -31
21 Crystal Palace 6 wins 15 draws = 33pts GD -34
22 Sunderland 6 wins 14 draws = 32 pts GD -38

Here is a link for all the stats on the 1969/70 season for anyone interested
http://www.historical-lineups.com/english-first-division/seasons-1970-to-1979/season-1969-70.html

Ruskin Old Boy
18-02-2017, 07:49 PM
I had completely forgotten that Wednesday had the game against Man City after our last match. I guess that like Maiden Eagle was glued to the radio and biting the fingernails.

I had also forgotten about George Graham's goal of the season. The thing I remember about that Arsenal game was when Gerry Queen went past Terry Neill who grabbed Gerry's shirt and pulled him back. It was in the penalty area but the ref waved play on even though Gerry's shirt was ripped and hanging off his shoulder. Big teams got the big decisions even then.

If I remember correctly, Roger Hoy's flying header in the Cup against Chelsea was the runner up in the goal of the season.

Hoy's goal one of the best. And Graham's goal one of the best away goals I've seen at Palace.

Managed to get to nearly all the home games even though was in my last year at university. Some great crowds that season and Jackson confirming yet again he was one of England's best keepers. And to this day the best Palace keeper - ever.

El Aguila
18-02-2017, 09:16 PM
I noticed that as there was only 2pts for a win back then, if it would of been 3pts we would of been relegated instead of Sheffield Wed on goal difference.

Actual Table
20 Crystal Palace 6 wins 15 draws GD 34 68
21 Sunderland 6 wins 14 draws GD 30 68
22 Sheffield Wednesday 8 wins 9draws GD 40 71

Table if it was 3pts for a win
20 Sheffield Wed 8 wins 9 draws = 33 pts GD -31
21 Crystal Palace 6 wins 15 draws = 33pts GD -34
22 Sunderland 6 wins 14 draws = 32 pts GD -38

Here is a link for all the stats on the 1969/70 season for anyone interested
http://www.historical-lineups.com/english-first-division/seasons-1970-to-1979/season-1969-70.html

It was still goal average back then, though.

davech
19-02-2017, 01:24 AM
Remember the season well.

I missed the first two home matches due to being at Cadet Summer Camp down in Penhale Sands, but made all the rest, plus the London aways.

We lost at home (and away for that matter) on a regular basis; as others have said, conceding 5 at home twice (Arsenal and Chelsea), 4 to Chelsea again in the cup (as ROB says, Roger Hoy's consolation header was a stunner) and 3 to Liverpool, West Brom, Newcastle and even Coventry (the Shrewsbury of the time :D), all at home. But we still turned out, often in the pouring rain on the Holmesdale, to watch a team of honest triers with a world-class goalkeeper in John Jackson - Palace's best ever imho. Only he stood in the way of more and heavier defeats. How he never played for England is a mystery (well not really - big-club bias was alive and kicking back then too, plus England also had a wealth of top-class 'keepers at the time).

That season and the three that followed, along with the seasons before we even made it to the top tier, are the reason us oldies are made of stern stuff. But they were still enjoyable, even when we were relegated in out 4th season with arguably our best ever team having lashed out a small fortune on our best-ever squad, but that is another story.

KYLIE MINEAGLE
19-02-2017, 03:27 AM
You are right about the great Jackson. My all time Palace hero bar none. Remember him at Coventry in a 2-2. Gerry Queen got a double .Coventry got a penalty back and then another which Jacko saved only for it to be retaken as " he had moved" That's changed these days hasn't it. As for that season .Wednesday had their final game mid week ,as has been said against Man City. I was having a bath listening to the radio , I can't recall there being a station like 5 live ,or even commercial stations back then. Anyway the result came up that Wednesday had lost and we were safe came through. Water went every where.Think my old mum thought I was drowning.

That was my last year at school and I could not wait to get in the next day and give it to all the Millwall fans there. See they were giving it large how we were going down. Being thick they could not see that they had never been there to go down . Thick as shit even then.

N Herts Eagle
19-02-2017, 07:30 AM
As a season all sorts of games stand out to me the first against Man Utd 2-2 a packed stadium the perfect start for our adventure. The fact we got a point against one of the top clubs was stunning. Heavy defeats very few wins but enough draws meant we always were one of four clubs around the relegation zone sometimes in it sometimes just outside. Southampton left it late to get away from the us and the other two.
We were not helped by injuries to key players notably David Payne missed a lot of games at the start of the season. We saw the likes of Pikney Tomkins Vannisartt Thorup play a game or two or three and really looked out of place but they tried no one was going to fault the spirit. Finally we attempted to add a bit of class but it caused a bit of uproar as we used the loan market first with Tambling then Jim Scott. Looking back I guess we set a budget had a stand to pay for and could not afford anymore for us big money moves. It was tough it was ugly to watch but lets be honest no one cared if we survived. Man City the only away win , the only double were riding high the previous seasons cup winners. Mal wanted European glory like Utd from 68 by the end of the season it was his only focus. The fact we benefited in the last game was great. However the Sheffield Wednesday game they played a very weakened side hence the shock that they won for me. Mal got his cup but not the glory by a twist of fate the first ever F A Cup replay fell on the same date City game dumped from the TV schedule. Also notable the season finished early this was all done by April.
However on a personal note not my favourite season it was the one that my Grandfather stopped going to football until then he and I always went to games togther but age caught up with him.

Madden
19-02-2017, 08:19 AM
The Palace total of 27 points was the lowest a team had ever stayed up with!

davech
19-02-2017, 10:56 AM
As a season all sorts of games stand out to me the first against Man Utd 2-2 a packed stadium the perfect start for our adventure. The fact we got a point against one of the top clubs was stunning. Heavy defeats very few wins but enough draws meant we always were one of four clubs around the relegation zone sometimes in it sometimes just outside. Southampton left it late to get away from the us and the other two.
We were not helped by injuries to key players notably David Payne missed a lot of games at the start of the season. We saw the likes of Pikney Tomkins Vannisartt Thorup play a game or two or three and really looked out of place but they tried no one was going to fault the spirit. Finally we attempted to add a bit of class but it caused a bit of uproar as we used the loan market first with Tambling then Jim Scott. Looking back I guess we set a budget had a stand to pay for and could not afford anymore for us big money moves. It was tough it was ugly to watch but lets be honest no one cared if we survived. Man City the only away win , the only double were riding high the previous seasons cup winners. Mal wanted European glory like Utd from 68 by the end of the season it was his only focus. The fact we benefited in the last game was great. However the Sheffield Wednesday game they played a very weakened side hence the shock that they won for me. Mal got his cup but not the glory by a twist of fate the first ever F A Cup replay fell on the same date City game dumped from the TV schedule. Also notable the season finished early this was all done by April.
However on a personal note not my favourite season it was the one that my Grandfather stopped going to football until then he and I always went to games togther but age caught up with him.

Indeed. Due to the World Cup starting at the beginning if June, iirc.

Sheffield Wednesday's final game was played some time after ours, in the days before last fixtures all being at the same date/time. The wait for that result was agonising.

ElwissAtMemphis
19-02-2017, 12:46 PM
The Palace total of 27 points was the lowest a team had ever stayed up with!

So that would equate to 33 points with 3 points/win. To even match that would require getting 14 points from 13 matches which would require a significant improvement in form. Survival at that rate would need several teams to finish with worse form than their current abysmal levels which is unlikely.

Assuming we need significantly more than 14 points (let's say 18) that means 5 wins and 3 draws from our remaining fixtures and that just ain't gonna happen.

Depressing. :(

N Herts Eagle
19-02-2017, 01:23 PM
So that would equate to 33 points with 3 points/win. To even match that would require getting 14 points from 13 matches which would require a significant improvement in form. Survival at that rate would need several teams to finish with worse form than their current abysmal levels which is unlikely.

Assuming we need significantly more than 14 points (let's say 18) that means 5 wins and 3 draws from our remaining fixtures and that just ain't gonna happen.

Depressing. :( You forgot one thing we played 4 games more !

big bad John
19-02-2017, 05:00 PM
That Man City game produced one of the greatest atmosphere's I ever witnessed at Selhurst. When Jackson saved the penalty from Lee the whole ground erupted into a guttural chant of Jackson - Jackson. No co-ordinated clapping or a drum, just raw emotion that had every man, woman, and child in selhurst that night shouting the great man's name.
Every point had to be fought for that season because in reality we were very poor. The team that got relegated at the end of 72-73 was by far a better team, who I still think were too good to go down.

Mick
19-02-2017, 05:41 PM
I'm pretty sure that after the Man City game that Sunderland also had the chance to overhaul us, but their game came before the Wednesday-Man City game. As mentioned , no score updates in those days on the latter game, so had to rely on the transistor radio in the Two Towers, near Norwood Park. Cue celebration!

Mick
19-02-2017, 05:53 PM
Another game I can recall going to in that season came late on in an evening away game at Wolves, which was a 1-1 draw ( can't recall who scored ), but Jacko was absolutely brilliant and saved us from a battering.

ian king
21-02-2017, 03:03 PM
I covered the Man City home game in the programme for our recent FA cup game v Man City.

That season Man City kept us in Division One. Our only away League win 1-0 at Man City on a weekday evening with snow in the air three/four days after they had won the League Cup on a heavy Wembley pitch. Then we win 1-0 at Selhurst Park on a game rearranged to a Monday evening to accommodate their progress in the European Cup Winners Cup (I think).
Then that nail-biting wait of sixteen days for their catch up game at Sheffield Wednesday.

On a sad note I heard today that our Scottish defender from that season Roger Hynd sadly passed away a few days ago (se separate post).

Martinsleftpeg
28-02-2017, 08:14 PM
I was talking to an Everton fan earlier and as their midfield maestro Alex Young had just died I spoke about watching him with Alan Ball and Kendall at goodison in August 69 our first division one away game. We were lucky to only lose 2-1 but it was an amazing experience given our earlier history and looking back I guess maybe 250 fans were there in total. Now we take 5 times as many or more. I felt like we were gate crashing an event we were not supposed to attend[emoji41]

big bad John
02-03-2017, 12:27 AM
I was talking to an Everton fan earlier and as their midfield maestro Alex Young had just died I spoke about watching him with Alan Ball and Kendall at goodison in August 69 our first division one away game. We were lucky to only lose 2-1 but it was an amazing experience given our earlier history and looking back I guess maybe 250 fans were there in total. Now we take 5 times as many or more. I felt like we were gate crashing an event we were not supposed to attend[emoji41]


Remember being over the park playing football and someone with a radio announced that we'd gone one up at Goodison. Didn't hear anymore until we got home and as was the way for most of the season we lost.
Almost certain that the 'Golden Vision' (what a nickname. Nowadays they'd call him Youngy.") Alex Young had left Everton by the time we played them.