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CharlieCPFC
16-09-2017, 04:45 PM
Is it a load of bollocks or is there really more to it?

Listening to John Salako on talk sport earlier and I had to agree with what he said. For those who never heard it he said how we've gone away from the Palace identity with a group of players who lack leadership. He said during his time here when things were going bad you'd have Jedinak or Delaney in your face telling you so.

Do you go by what people associate with as the Palace identity? A nasty place to go to with a solid and organised collective unit with raw pace and directness out wide.

We're consistently conflicting our style of play from to another which surely can't be helpful to the players. Today I saw a side who were still stuck in a more safe possession orientated mindset instead of having that more aggressive and penetrative mindset.

Does it add up to the fact as we started to go away from that identity and DNA things started to turn downhill for us?

Skiddo
16-09-2017, 04:50 PM
Jermaine Jenas said a similar thing the other day, also stating our players aren't good enough to play anything other than direct football.

carter
16-09-2017, 04:52 PM
I've always associated Palace with hard work and being tough. We seem like a nicey nice club now. No leaders, no bullies and no leader of a manager. We seem unrecognisable now, especially at Selhurst. I think people dread going there now instead of enjoying it. It's not a fortress it was 3+ years ago. We've slowly come away everything we was good at and that's why we badly miss Allardyce. He was perfect for us. Football isn't a hard game to play. If you can do the basics properly you stand a far greater chance of winning. Example of basics is running after every ball, pressing opposition down, being physically stronger and concentrating. It's embarrassing to watch grown men not being able to do it now. They are such pussies. If you do the basics right like we did under Allardyce then you'll start to reap the rewards. It's infuriating watching us with this group of players. Some of them have it too easy now and are too comfortable.. part of the furniture. I don't care what anyone says if you pick our best 11 v Burnleys best 11 ours would win on paper but Burnley beat us because all 11 of them players give 100%. Ours don't. Grown men can't even put in 100% hard graft for 90 minutes. This is why I'm giving my season ticket up for a couple of months because it is embarrassing to watch these "men". We should easily be sitting on about 7 points now. We need a manager who is willing to scream at them. Is a 70 year old Roy Hodgson gonna be the man to motivate them? Don't think so personally.

5 games in and can't see 3 teams worse than us let alone 1. The last 5 years have been our most successful in our history and we've got nothing to show for it. The club/players/fans look to have ran out of energy and luck now. It's a sorry state of affairs

CPFC.1990
16-09-2017, 04:55 PM
Although Parish seems obsessed with all things Palace past, the current Palace couldn't be more removed from the real Palace if it tried.

The whole club appears to be driven by ego's. From the board to the players.

Billyd
16-09-2017, 04:57 PM
Thing is the further we get away from the promotion team the worse we get and it should be the opposite.

This is the team Pulis took over that went on to the 5th or 6th best team in league (in his reign)

1Speroni
2Ward
21Moxey
15Jedinak
19Gabbidon
27Delaney
8Dikgacoi substituted for O'Keefe at 75'minutes
46Bannan
29Chamakh Substituted for Jeromeat 36'minutes
7Bolasie Booked at 78mins
16Gayle Substituted for Puncheonat 86'minutes

Let that sink in for a second and gives the answer to the original question.

jaspercpfc
16-09-2017, 05:02 PM
When you talk about the DNA I can only go as far back as 88' but I think many harp back to the Coppell era. We were never fashionable, we seldom got any praise from the media but the whole club was built on unity. Many of the squad grew together, and many of the players had a point to prove.
Opposition defenders knew they'd have Wrighty or Bright back chatting and winding them up for 90 minutes, whilst trying to get in there face but behind them you'd have Gray and Thomas doing the dirty work in midfield breaking up play. We were always built on a solid foundation, if you look back at 90/91 for example we seldom won games by more than the odd goal, but we were very disciplined. We did the simple things extremely well which is something the current crop don’t do. The 90/91 squad were resolute and played to their strengths.

If you look at the luxury players we've had in the last 20 years, very few have really ever blossomed and many have ever managed to establish themselves, with the club primarily excelling with industrious workman like individuals. (Lombardo/Jansen being notable exceptions) The game has evolved since that time but I would always associate us as an “up them and at them kinda team”
When things go wrong in life people often harp back to yester year and draw on inspiration from a better period. As football fans many are too sentimental, but for us we have totally imploded and we have a team that many would describe as unlikable, and that are distinctly lacking leadership. If I was in a team you'd want the likes of Thorn/Young/Thomas and co around you, they were limited in certain aspects but for hunger and desire they were up there with the best and you know they’d be there for you on the pitch.

CharlieCPFC
17-09-2017, 07:41 AM
When you talk about the DNA I can only go as far back as 88' but I think many harp back to the Coppell era. We were never fashionable, we seldom got any praise from the media but the whole club was built on unity. Many of the squad grew together, and many of the players had a point to prove.
Opposition defenders knew they'd have Wrighty or Bright back chatting and winding them up for 90 minutes, whilst trying to get in there face but behind them you'd have Gray and Thomas doing the dirty work in midfield breaking up play. We were always built on a solid foundation, if you look back at 90/91 for example we seldom won games by more than the odd goal, but we were very disciplined. We did the simple things extremely well which is something the current crop donít do. The 90/91 squad were resolute and played to their strengths.

If you look at the luxury players we've had in the last 20 years, very few have really ever blossomed and many have ever managed to establish themselves, with the club primarily excelling with industrious workman like individuals. (Lombardo/Jansen being notable exceptions) The game has evolved since that time but I would always associate us as an ďup them and at them kinda teamĒ
When things go wrong in life people often harp back to yester year and draw on inspiration from a better period. As football fans many are too sentimental, but for us we have totally imploded and we have a team that many would describe as unlikable, and that are distinctly lacking leadership. If I was in a team you'd want the likes of Thorn/Young/Thomas and co around you, they were limited in certain aspects but for hunger and desire they were up there with the best and you know theyíd be there for you on the pitch.

Fully agree as always M.

I think the whole club identity and DNA has a lot of meaning to it. For example the philosophy which exists today at Ajax stemmed from a philosophy of football that was wanted by the flamboyant Amsterdam culture and people.

We're becoming something that's getting away from the clubs tradition. When you look at what the Selhurst crowd loves and what's being served up or wanted by SP it's so far away from what we want. I've said time and time again we're caught at a crossroads on how this club needs to go about itself to advance and progress itself.

We had the perfect ingredients at the club from when Freedman was in charge. We had as I mentioned in my earlier post a tough middle with real pace out wide. It wasn't technically brilliant all the time but it got the crowd into play and the players thrived off that. This continued under the days of Pulis and early days of Pardew until he changed the style completely. It's all been downhill from there since until Sam gave us a glorious few months in a style the whole club bought into.

Look at other clubs supporters and their expectations of style of play etc like West Ham you sense a grasp that to bring together the club you should try and get that principle right. There's just a lack of direction at the club, f**ked if I know what SP's long term ambitions are. But during his early days in 2010 there was always a long term plan with everything, recruitment policy and style of play.

We've gone away from all of that, the fans are in limbo as to where we'll be in 6 months time let alone 2-3 years. The whole structured organised approach from boardroom level and downwards has disappeared and it's showing.

We had a golden chance to go an approach a Dyche or Wilder and get back to what's served us best. At least the fans would pull to the same direction and have had a good platform to build from.

Lingfield Eagle
17-09-2017, 07:54 AM
I agree and I'm concerned that if Hodgson and Lewington get us to play the England way then nothings going to change.

CharlieCPFC
02-10-2018, 06:33 AM
Apologies for the bump but i think this is something that's missing big time for us.

We've got no identity, when you consider the likes of Bournemouth, Leicester and even Brighton do. The way they play is ingrained into them and they can properly plan their recruitment to fit it's purpose.

Our style is so slow and pedestrian and it's frustrating to watch. We've only got two or three players at most capable of playing a slow tempo possession based style. We're consistently relying on individual brilliance predominantly from Zaha to get us points. When he eventually goes we'll have big problems on our hands.

The 442 from last season really filled me with optimism going forwards we Wouldve built on that and established something. But we've reverted to a negative 433 where the players are scared to make things happen and be a bit more opportunist.

It just seems like we want to fill gaps with our recruitment and not truly lay down some solid foundations going forwards.

ForzaPalace
02-10-2018, 06:42 AM
Not sure how we can have an identity when we change managers annually

switchboard
02-10-2018, 06:44 AM
Not sure how we can have an identity when we change managers annually

This.

Kai
02-10-2018, 06:47 AM
Those 10 minutes after the penalty yesterday speaks volumes. They kept passing the ball around at the back with little or no movement in front when they should have gone all in.

Zaha, Townsend, Luka, McArthur all seem to have taken backward steps this season.

BillyTKid
02-10-2018, 06:48 AM
I thought we played some fantastic football at the end of last season. We should have put some serious resource towards a third quality wide man to replace RLC. Teams are doubling up on Wilf and nullifying us. We need another pact forward, something Palace have a history with. If only we could get another AJ.

cpfc4evandeva
02-10-2018, 07:14 AM
Is everyone saying that we don’t appear to have a proper long-term plan, and just seem to take each week as it comes? No way. We’re one of the most organised and well run outfits in the league.

Parish has done very well with us but we still seem to have that ‘just out of admin’ smell about us, and we can’t shake it off.

ForzaPalace
02-10-2018, 07:17 AM
Those 10 minutes after the penalty yesterday speaks volumes. They kept passing the ball around at the back with little or no movement in front when they should have gone all in.

Zaha, Townsend, Luka, McArthur all seem to have taken backward steps this season.

I was ready to throw my TV out of the window watching that

cpfc4evandeva
02-10-2018, 07:20 AM
Yep - that was dreadful but also a bit worrying. Such a lack of urgency.

Penstone Eagle
02-10-2018, 07:23 AM
Clearly not motivated. That's management's job.

MFBias
02-10-2018, 07:31 AM
Lose a few games, there is no DNA.

Win a few games, what great team spirit.



End of last season, we were playing some of the best football Ive ever see Palace play, and it was in the top flight aswell.

Scoot
02-10-2018, 07:35 AM
Lose a few games, there is no DNA.

Win a few games, what great team spirit.



End of last season, we were playing some of the best football Ive ever see Palace play, and it was in the top flight aswell.

Yes but it has turned to crap this season, no movement, slack passing, no urgency, slow, no closing the opposition. Utterly clueless and every other manager knows exactly how Roy will line it up

CharlieCPFC
02-10-2018, 08:04 AM
Not sure how we can have an identity when we change managers annually

I thought this was the point of the director of football though. Surely he's supposed to guide the long term future of the football club in the signings made etc.

We've gone backwards from last season.

Skintagain
02-10-2018, 08:23 AM
Thing is the further we get away from the promotion team the worse we get and it should be the opposite.

This is the team Pulis took over that went on to the 5th or 6th best team in league (in his reign)

1Speroni
2Ward
21Moxey
15Jedinak
19Gabbidon
27Delaney
8Dikgacoi substituted for O'Keefe at 75'minutes
46Bannan
29Chamakh Substituted for Jeromeat 36'minutes
7Bolasie Booked at 78mins
16Gayle Substituted for Puncheonat 86'minutes

Let that sink in for a second and gives the answer to the original question.

I know this is an old post but its worth revisiting.

1Speroni, WH better
2Ward, AWB better but not much in it
21Moxey - PVA, better
15Jedinak - Mile, no where near as good
19Gabbidon - Not much different to Sakho
27Delaney - far better than any of our CB's
8Dikgacoi substituted for O'Keefe at 75'minutes, Diki, the thin one was good, the fat one not so, O'Keffe lol. We have several of a similar standard
46Bannan, Meyer is better
29Chamakh Substituted for Jeromeat 36'minutes, a late renaissance for Chammy, we have no one near that level.
7Bolasie Booked at 78mins, Zaha better
16Gayle Substituted for Puncheonat 86'minutes, Miles better than Sorloth or Ayew.

We are not progressing.

Skintagain
02-10-2018, 08:24 AM
Yes but it has turned to crap this season, no movement, slack passing, no urgency, slow, no closing the opposition. Utterly clueless and every other manager knows exactly how Roy will line it up

Spot on.

Prince Phillip
02-10-2018, 08:29 AM
Current 5 Year Plan: Lose half your fixtures but stay in the division. Got to keep the old chin up.

ForzaPalace
02-10-2018, 08:29 AM
I know this is an old post but its worth revisiting.

1Speroni, WH better
2Ward, AWB better but not much in it
21Moxey - PVA, better
15Jedinak - Mile, no where near as good
19Gabbidon - Not much different to Sakho
27Delaney - far better than any of our CB's
8Dikgacoi substituted for O'Keefe at 75'minutes, Diki, the thin one was good, the fat one not so, O'Keffe lol. We have several of a similar standard
46Bannan, Meyer is better
29Chamakh Substituted for Jeromeat 36'minutes, a late renaissance for Chammy, we have no one near that level.
7Bolasie Booked at 78mins, Zaha better
16Gayle Substituted for Puncheonat 86'minutes, Miles better than Sorloth or Ayew.

We are not progressing.

Oh dear

Gollum
02-10-2018, 08:38 AM
Lose a few games, there is no DNA.

Win a few games, what great team spirit.
End of last season, we were playing some of the best football Ive ever see Palace play, and it was in the top flight aswell.

Agree. End of last season we had a great run in.
Establish Meyer in the team, re-acquire RLC in January and get Benteke firing or replace.
Undoubtably, a Jedinak style leader and enforcer would enhance the club. Really surprised how quiet Sakho is on the pitch given his general personality.

Robson
02-10-2018, 08:43 AM
Apart from in 2015, we start each Premier League season looking like we've just been promoted and need to adjust to a new division.

What the **** goes on at our club during the summer?

Do the management and players have their short-term memories wiped? It's laughable.

Dorking .Eagle
02-10-2018, 08:48 AM
Club DNA is to stay in the division, no more, no less. Suits Roy as he'll never be fired as long as he achieves that every season, and whilst he'd like us to permanently have a 10 point gap over the bottom 3 (it is currently 5pts I believe), he is pragmatic that we won't win all the 'bottom half' fixtures because these games are fine margins games and we have many players prone to cock ups.

Luckily there are usually 3 or 4 players in our team each capable of doing something amazing to win (or draw) the 'mustn't lose' fixtures. If one or two of those players play well, we have a reasonable chance in games

It is also a big part of the clubs DNA to have at least 3 deadwood players in the squad on high wages at any one time, and to have a shortage in at least one 'playing department' at any one time due to injuries

I'll take this over being a Championship club though

Robson
02-10-2018, 08:49 AM
Club DNA is to stay in the division, no more, no less. Suits Roy as he'll never be fired as long as he achieves that every season, and whilst he'd like us to permanently have a 10 point gap over the bottom 3 (it is currently 5pts I believe), he is pragmatic that we won't win all the 'bottom half' fixtures because these games are fine margins games and we have many players prone to cock ups.

Luckily there are usually 3 or 4 players in our team each capable of doing something amazing to win (or draw) the 'mustn't lose' fixtures. If one or two of those players play well, we have a reasonable chance in games

It is also a big part of the clubs DNA to have at least 3 deadwood players in the squad on high wages at any one time, and to have a shortage in at least one 'playing department' at any one time due to injuries

I'll take this over being a Championship club though
The Reliant Robin of the Premier League. Who's Dell Trotter?

Windsor_Eagle
02-10-2018, 08:52 AM
I think that there is a bit of OTT soul-searching going on here at the moment. The comments about the perception of 'team spirit' and 'identity' being determined by the fine margins in a game are spot on.

In this league, unless you are one of the top 4 or 5 clubs where you spend most of any given match in the ascendency, there'll be periods of matches where you are on top and periods of a match where you are under the cosh. There's a fag paper between the quality of the team in 7th and those scrabbling around the relegation zone. What makes the difference in how your season goes is in not conceding many during the periods where you are under the cosh and making the very best of your chances at the other end. We've not got that balance right yet. It is not so much an issue at the back (we've had 3 clean sheets in the league in 7 games and not conceded more than 2 in any game) but it is an issue up top. Whilst we didn't create much last night, we have in all our other games and should have put at least another 4 goals in this season. Had those massive chances gone in, we'd be in the top half talking about how ruddy brilliant we are.

I have no qualms at all about us changing our style a fair bit. The long balls tend to emerge from a state of desperation at chasing a game against a compact side (and we are no different to most other teams in the league for that). Roy is doing a more measured job of trying to evolve our style than Pardew or FdB did. However, it has not clicked in the final 1/3 of the pitch as yet but I think we'll get there ultimately. It'll probably happen when Roy starts getting twitchy and reverts to the narrow 4-4-2 with Wilf and Andros up top (which he has so far stubbornly refused to move to).

We need to be more confident on the ball and move it about because relying on the counter attack has been well and truly sussed if that is our 'identity'. Park the bus and we're ****ed.

We saw some tantalising glimpses last season and it feels right now like Roy is trying to get one of our strikers in and amongst the goals so that we have genuine options up top. What'll happen is if that doesn't start to happen soon and we slide towards the bottom of the table, the urgency of the situation will force his hand to adopt his tactics. Frustrating to wait for that to happen, but I suspect it is how this will play out.

Riley
02-10-2018, 09:04 AM
I know this is an old post but its worth revisiting.

19Gabbidon - Not much different to Sakho



I enjoyed this bit most. And to think people say the BBS has lost its sense of humour!

Sewell's lob
02-10-2018, 09:20 AM
I know this is an old post but its worth revisiting.

1Speroni, WH better
2Ward, AWB better but not much in it
21Moxey - PVA, better
15Jedinak - Mile, no where near as good
19Gabbidon - Not much different to Sakho
27Delaney - far better than any of our CB's
8Dikgacoi substituted for O'Keefe at 75'minutes, Diki, the thin one was good, the fat one not so, O'Keffe lol. We have several of a similar standard
46Bannan, Meyer is better
29Chamakh Substituted for Jeromeat 36'minutes, a late renaissance for Chammy, we have no one near that level.
7Bolasie Booked at 78mins, Zaha better
16Gayle Substituted for Puncheonat 86'minutes, Miles better than Sorloth or Ayew.

We are not progressing.

Except in size of wage bill.

SA Eagle
02-10-2018, 09:21 AM
Those 10 minutes after the penalty yesterday speaks volumes. They kept passing the ball around at the back with little or no movement in front when they should have gone all in.

Zaha, Townsend, Luka, McArthur all seem to have taken backward steps this season.

Not an excuse, but it didn't help that he'd just made subs with a view to shutting up and defending the point and then we go and give away the penalty.

prizesucker
02-10-2018, 09:23 AM
The club has always struggled with its identity.

Just have a look at how many club crests we have had, look at the sheer volume of kits (& array of colours) we have had, (http://www.kitclassics.co.uk/kits/cpalace.png) as well as the high turnover of managers, players and owners the club has had.

All of these factors have led to dodgy foundations from which to impose any sort of club identity. (even in Parish's newcastle programme notes, he notes work is already taking place on designing next year's kits - why can't we have the same kit two years running...especially when most of the fanbase like what we currently have?)


From a players/pitch perspective, the club is known for having tricky skillful wingers who have a reputation for going down easily (Rogers, Taylor, Hilaire, Salako, Routledge, Moses, Zaha etc), it is known for producing some well-known talent but not as much as it should have given the catchment area (Sansom, Nicholas, Southgate, Gordon, Morrison, Clyne, Moses, Zaha, Joniesta, Wan-Bissaka) & it is known for having players that graft, won't back down from a battle but don't possess the quality to break that glass ceiling.

The club is in a transition period - i think Parish himself has admitted we want to establish ourselves as a top flight club and get rid of the shackles of the yo-yo club with potential that never gets fulfilled. Sadly some of the shackles come with price to them, such as; fans feel they are treated (or mistreated in some cases) like customers which makes them feel a bit more distant to something they used to feel so close to as well as observing more players who can turn up for the vast sums of money and not care about the club (Mutch).

It could be argued that the sacrifice of that identity has been worth it as current owners have overseen some quite memorable events:- uniting the ground,training ground and club under one entity, a play off final victory, 6th year in the top flight, a proper foundation that helps the community, a league cup semi final (only beaten on pens), a FA Cup final, permission from a historically anti-club council to upgrade the stadium as well as acquiring some financially rewarding sponsorship deals (even if they are in the betting industry which leaves some fans conflicted about moral suitability.

Number 1 aim is to survive by hook or by crook in the top division to keep high money rolling in. That is the club's identity now.

Favelly Weston
02-10-2018, 09:37 AM
Apart from in 2015, we start each Premier League season looking like we've just been promoted and need to adjust to a new division.

What the **** goes on at our club during the summer?

Do the management and players have their short-term memories wiped? It's laughable.

Yes this is exactly how I feel. This is our sixth consecutive season in the PL, but right now we don't appear to be much stronger than when we first went up (maybe a slight exaggeration). We should be able to build season on season, not regress. Yes, continually changing the manager doesn't help, but if we recruited the right players and did improve eash year then we wouldn't have to keep bringing in a different person to do a firefighting job.

And as for not having a team that can win matches without Wilf (unless it's in the EFL CUP), don't get me started!

I had high hopes for us back in August, but as things stand I would settle for a 17th place finish.

Bintang
02-10-2018, 09:58 AM
Palaceís DNA to me is the fact we donít score many goals, and we donít concede many either.

Since 1989/90 we have only had 4 players score more than 20 goals in the top division. Ian Wright, Mark Bright and Chris Armstrong in the early 90ís, and Andy Johnson in 2004/05. He was the last one.

Currently we are 4th from bottom on the goals scored with 5. But are helped by being 6th from the top in goals against with 8. This trend has gone on for most of the 40 years Iíve supported the team.

elgin eagle
02-10-2018, 09:59 AM
I know it was 'only' west Brom away, but I thought given the stylish way we played, more than a couple deserved to make the first team last night.

The 'identity' will only dissipate further once we get the corporate bodge.

trufan
02-10-2018, 10:19 AM
Lose a few games, there is no DNA.

Win a few games, what great team spirit.



End of last season, we were playing some of the best football Ive ever see Palace play, and it was in the top flight aswell.

Yes, the end of last season was great. Especially enjoyed May 13th, the last time we scored at home...

MAW
02-10-2018, 01:38 PM
I would like someone to explain what club identity really means.

I understand the tough-tackling identity of Leeds Utd in the 1970s, the 'long ball into the box' style of Wimbledon in the 1980s and the passing, possession football of Barcelona in recent years, but most teams change styles and formations to fit available playing staff and the opposition. Perhaps a manager creates the identity - Sir Alex Ferguson's 'winning' mentality.

I am sure our style is the same as that of Mr. Mourino's Man Utd - the 'only' difference being the quality of players.

Style? Formations? Tactics? Football identity depends on the quality of players - Brian Clough was right.

Now, Mancester City..... the 'lots of cash' identity.

A Wooden Fish On Wheels
02-10-2018, 02:02 PM
I know this is an old post but its worth revisiting.

1Speroni, WH better Yeah OK your post lost any impact or credibility right there.