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View Full Version : What cost West ham - an alternative view


nicknackpalace
29-10-2017, 02:10 PM
Much has been made in the media of Joe Hart being upset about his team mate being unprofessional, and that's what cost them the win.

I would like to suggest an alternative. West ham players had already tried to go in the corner twice at least and had lost possession. So maybe it's not quite the guaranteed way to kill the game that Hart thinks.

However my main point is that the amount of time added on was due to the West ham players "professional" rolling around on the ground trying to waste time. hart himself feigned injury and had to have the trainer on (to eat up a bit more time). The fourth official was going to signal 5 minutes but changed it to 6 because a west ham player (hart i think) was getting treatment.If they hadn't feigned injury then only 5 minutes would have been signalled in which case Palace wouldn't have had time to score. The amount of time added for that injury was probably greater than it actually took. If i believed in karma that would be karma - trying to waste time meant that more time was added on!

radiomike
29-10-2017, 02:20 PM
Interesting point. A shame however Jose Fonte was booed when clearly genuinely injured

st albans
29-10-2017, 02:22 PM
No. All Antonio had to do was stay in the corner and game over with time wasting on their part working perfectly. He is 100% to blame

jimmy the gent
29-10-2017, 02:22 PM
Every team does it, including our own. Law should be changed so the clock controlled by another official in the stands, and stopped the minute the ball is not in play, rather than 45mins with injury time.

Robin
29-10-2017, 02:25 PM
Every team does it, including our own. Law should be changed so the clock controlled by another official in the stands, and stopped the minute the ball is not in play, rather than 45mins with injury time.

I agree. It works perfectly in rugby. But football won’t change because it thrives on the drama and controversy.

bestperch
29-10-2017, 02:26 PM
Not sure people were booing Fonte. More that when he tried to get up Hart stopped him to waste more time.

SA Eagle
29-10-2017, 02:29 PM
People booed Fonte because he shunned going the quick way off the pitch behind the goal, insisting that he could run to the side, made about four yards and then started hopping.

Ogilvy
29-10-2017, 02:32 PM
Interesting point. A shame however Jose Fonte was booed when clearly genuinely injured

Fonte and team mates imeadiatly signalled to come off, but he then went down in a crumpled heap where he stayed for about three minutes. He was then 4 yards from the byline which meant he could easily have taken the quick route, but made a b-line towards the bench, then changed direction. He then slowed himself down a bit more with the hop and hobbling antics. West Ham and Fonte got exactly what they deserved. Would Palace do it...hell yes but there could have been over 10 mins played yesterday....

Malarkey
29-10-2017, 02:37 PM
The fourth official was going to signal 5 minutes but changed it to 6 because a west ham player (hart i think) was getting treatment.

:D:jerkit::lux:

Johnnieboy
29-10-2017, 02:43 PM
West Ham were wasting time right from the start of the second half. Noticeable and very odd tactics under the circumstances.

Adding on time isn't enough of a deterrent, but refs don't seem to book time wasters any more. Yesterday's ref also made no attempt to enforce opposition players moving away from free kicks unless they were setting up a wall. Both examples are low level but persistent cheating which must have a cumulative effect on the game or they wouldn't be (coached) to do it

Dobbo
29-10-2017, 02:58 PM
Hart going down and needing treatment for a severe case of time wasting was what caused that extra minute that gave Wilf time to score.
He was as unprofessional as Valencia.

st albans
29-10-2017, 03:02 PM
Hart going down and needing treatment for a severe case of time wasting was what caused that extra minute that gave Wilf time to score.
He was as unprofessional as Valencia.

I see what you’ve done there

Dobbo
29-10-2017, 03:03 PM
Also, has anyone mentioned the authorities taking action against their scum fans for chanting
"Zaha Zaha you're a cu^t, Zaha, you're a cu^t" ?

Must have gone down very well with mums and kids in the Family Stand.

st albans
29-10-2017, 03:08 PM
Also, has anyone mentioned the authorities taking action against their scum fans for chanting
"Zaha Zaha you're a cu^t, Zaha, you're a cu^t" ?

Must have gone down very well with mums and kids in the Family Stand.

Taking action?? Really?

dave_who_ru
29-10-2017, 03:11 PM
Also, has anyone mentioned the authorities taking action against their scum fans for chanting
"Zaha Zaha you're a cu^t, Zaha, you're a cu^t" ?

Must have gone down very well with mums and kids in the Family Stand.

Whilst use of the word in any chant is pretty embarrassing clearly you have missed the several occasions that our own fans have sung something similar.

Malarkey
29-10-2017, 03:15 PM
Also, has anyone mentioned the authorities taking action against their scum fans for chanting
"Zaha Zaha you're a cu^t, Zaha, you're a cu^t" ?

Must have gone down very well with mums and kids in the Family Stand.

Wilf took action himself :)

Icy
29-10-2017, 03:16 PM
Every team does it, including our own. Law should be changed so the clock controlled by another official in the stands, and stopped the minute the ball is not in play, rather than 45mins with injury time.

They trialled that while we were in the championship about 10 years ago. Was a ******* mess. We were playing away in the arse end of nowhere (somewhere like scunny) and they played about an extra 20-30 mins each half, the game was dire. No one needs that.

Just start booking players for time wasting and get everyone that needs treatment off (except in the most serious cases) the closest part of the pitch to get the game moving and go back to proper drop balls (none of this kicking it back to the opposition friendly bullshit).

MFBias
29-10-2017, 03:50 PM
They trialled that while we were in the championship about 10 years ago. Was a ******* mess. We were playing away in the arse end of nowhere (somewhere like scunny) and they played about an extra 20-30 mins each half, the game was dire. No one needs that.

Just start booking players for time wasting and get everyone that needs treatment off (except in the most serious cases) the closest part of the pitch to get the game moving and go back to proper drop balls (none of this kicking it back to the opposition friendly bullshit).

I find it hard to believe they would have trialed it in league fixture first, it would be done at some insignificant international tournament first like goal line and video replays.

This change needs to happen as it removes time wasting (cheating), the only time wasting you could do is to keep the ball, which is atleast the sport not pretending to be injured.

Lombardo 888
29-10-2017, 03:50 PM
I agree. It works perfectly in rugby. But football won’t change because it thrives on the drama and controversy.

I don't agree. The reason football won't change is the the referees absolute belief, fully backed by the so called FA, is that the referees "control" the game. They believe the game is all about them.

MFBias
29-10-2017, 03:57 PM
I don't agree. The reason football won't change is the the referees absolute belief, fully backed by the so called FA, is that the referees "control" the game. They believe the game is all about them.

That view is changing:
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/20/fifa-60-minute-game-clock/

TheMexicanHorse
29-10-2017, 05:45 PM
No. All Antonio had to do was stay in the corner and game over with time wasting on their part working perfectly. He is 100% to blame

Yup
Still can’t quiet believe he did what he did

JDawg
29-10-2017, 06:18 PM
That view is changing:
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/20/fifa-60-minute-game-clock/


A US paper and FIFA would like you to think this. As it's FIFA, dare I suggest it may need a deep pocketed sponsor for it to happen?

And West Ham were entirely to blame for the six extra minutes. Indeed I thought this was generous to them.

Karma.

MFBias
29-10-2017, 10:15 PM
US paper because Im abroad at the moment and it came up on my google search first, but I actually read it first on the BBC football site months again, so the source is relevent what ever paper it is.

The rules have been changing with Goal-line technology and video replays, Fifa has been making changes that actually happen.

chrisophiex
29-10-2017, 10:23 PM
Every team does it, including our own. Law should be changed so the clock controlled by another official in the stands, and stopped the minute the ball is not in play, rather than 45mins with injury time.


I still find it amazing that the ball is in play for only 60 mins or so during a 90 minute game of football !

That's a third of the game when the ball isn't even moving.

MFBias
29-10-2017, 10:32 PM
Apprently it can be as low as 45 minutes in play if it a particularly slow-time wasting game.

'On Saturday, there were just 47 minutes of actual playing time in Russia’s 2-0 win over New Zealand to open the Confederations Cup, according to FIFA.'

I remember some people they would feel short changed if the games lasted less time, without seeing they are actually getting better quality.

west country boy
29-10-2017, 11:04 PM
I find it hard to believe they would have trialed it in league fixture first, it would be done at some insignificant international tournament first like goal line and video replays.I’d assumed Icy was joking but he may of course be an acid casualty or similar.

Hong Kong Eagle
30-10-2017, 04:37 AM
Also, has anyone mentioned the authorities taking action against their scum fans for chanting
"Zaha Zaha you're a cu^t, Zaha, you're a cu^t" ?

Must have gone down very well with mums and kids in the Family Stand.

This is a well made point. Having the away fans in that corner means the closet target for their abuse is the family stand

I know the question is where else to put them but I have seen some really bad stuff being directed at basically families and kids

I have no solution just saying

Golf Boy
30-10-2017, 04:56 AM
Every team does it, including our own. Law should be changed so the clock controlled by another official in the stands, and stopped the minute the ball is not in play, rather than 45mins with injury time.

What would Pulis do then?

Golf Boy
30-10-2017, 05:04 AM
If you take the ball to the corner then the refs should be more leniant to the team trying to get it back. Might think twice about dribblibg it out there and forming a shield if you are going to get clattered.

Far East Eagle
30-10-2017, 05:10 AM
This is a well made point. Having the away fans in that corner means the closet target for their abuse is the family stand

I know the question is where else to put them but I have seen some really bad stuff being directed at basically families and kids

I have no solution just saying

Stick them in the top tier of the Holmesdale a la Newcastle :p

H.Bomb
30-10-2017, 06:37 AM
West Ham had two attempts on target and played poorly. We conceded a sloppy goal and the second was a great finish. We battered them in the second half and a 4-2 shoreline would have been a fairer reflection on the game. Their time wasting was a disgrace. Mark my words... we will finish higher than West Ham this season.

Jim Cannon
30-10-2017, 07:08 AM
Also, has anyone mentioned the authorities taking action against their scum fans for chanting
"Zaha Zaha you're a cu^t, Zaha, you're a cu^t" ?

Must have gone down very well with mums and kids in the Family Stand.

If they did that they would be taking action against most clubs most weeks. Zaha answered them the best way possible

bhcp
30-10-2017, 07:33 AM
They trialled that while we were in the championship about 10 years ago. Was a ******* mess. We were playing away in the arse end of nowhere (somewhere like scunny) and they played about an extra 20-30 mins each half, the game was dire. No one needs that.

Just start booking players for time wasting and get everyone that needs treatment off (except in the most serious cases) the closest part of the pitch to get the game moving and go back to proper drop balls (none of this kicking it back to the opposition friendly bullshit).

Rotherham away, about 15 years ago. The first half finished after 4pm. Never happened again from memory....

hdeagle
30-10-2017, 08:41 AM
The poor ref allowed them to take their free-kicks yards from where they were awarded and in some cases infield rather than on the touchline where the original free-kick had been awarded.

Fair enough that most teams steal a yard or two but in West Ham's case it was more about moving the ball 10 yards and they were allowed to do this without censure.

They were also allowed to take play-acting to a new level which riled the Palace crowd as they fell to the floor at every opportunity to waste time.

alf
30-10-2017, 08:52 AM
They trialled that while we were in the championship about 10 years ago. Was a ******* mess. We were playing away in the arse end of nowhere (somewhere like scunny) and they played about an extra 20-30 mins each half, the game was dire. No one needs that.

Just start booking players for time wasting and get everyone that needs treatment off (except in the most serious cases) the closest part of the pitch to get the game moving and go back to proper drop balls (none of this kicking it back to the opposition friendly bullshit).

I feel that time wasting at throw ins/or creeping up the pitch should be penalised by the referee turning it over to the other side in such a situation

aj4england
30-10-2017, 09:10 AM
If you take the ball to the corner then the refs should be more leniant to the team trying to get it back. Might think twice about dribblibg it out there and forming a shield if you are going to get clattered.

Im sure this would change if when palace go to arsenal or chelsea, from minute 1 we stick the ball in the corner with benteke and sako shielding it...

Danny_Cheviot
30-10-2017, 09:51 AM
The problem with ‘sit-back-and-defend’ at any level of football is what’s Plan B when it all goes wrong.

West Ham should have started the 2nd half as they did against Spurs. They had a 2 goal cushion against the bottom team in the PL with no recognised striker so what were they afraid of?

When the inevitable happened they had approximately 6 seconds to place Plan B into action.

Full time and both teams got what they deserved.

AJ
30-10-2017, 10:11 AM
A simple change to the law which only allows the taker of a corner within 10 yards of the ball would make taking the ball into the corner less of an advantage.

Reg_Maudling
30-10-2017, 10:13 AM
I think they are the cockiest away fans in the premier league no doubt as they don't have a home ground any more and love coming to selhurst
They were quiet all the second half even when they winning

wrightchipvcfc
30-10-2017, 10:39 AM
Stick them in the top tier of the Holmesdale a la Newcastle :p

Not sure powers that be would let away fans above palace fans below in lower Holmsdale they could chuck chairs ect down but saying that like you say Newcastle do it .

Dom the Eagle
30-10-2017, 10:45 AM
Some brilliant piss taking on Park Road after the game.

MFBias
30-10-2017, 01:03 PM
If you take the ball to the corner then the refs should be more leniant to the team trying to get it back. Might think twice about dribblibg it out there and forming a shield if you are going to get clattered.

I dont consider taking the ball to the corner and shielding it time wasting, it's controlling the ball defensively. Time wasting is going down injured falsely, walking off the pitch slowly or taking longer on anything between play that you would do normally and that is intentional cheating. Atleast keeping the ball requires football skill.

liberal clubber
30-10-2017, 01:12 PM
It’s not “football” though, is it?

MFBias
30-10-2017, 02:48 PM
It’s not “football” though, is it?

How is it not football? you are keeping possession of the football while in play, there is nothing wrong with it, it is playing defensively. It is frustrating for the team without the ball but it is a fair tactic, whereas the other time wasting activites used whilst the ball isnt in play, is cheating.

Sick Bucket
30-10-2017, 03:24 PM
Some brilliant piss taking on Park Road after the game.

Please elaborate so I can squeeze every last bit of enjoyment out of this result.

Big Gav
30-10-2017, 03:28 PM
Interesting point. A shame however Jose Fonte was booed when clearly genuinely injured

Was a shame he got booed but he still took the longest way off the pitch instead of just going behind the goal

Hector
30-10-2017, 03:40 PM
No. All Antonio had to do was stay in the corner and game over with time wasting on their part working perfectly. He is 100% to blame

He should have stayed in the corner but there was still a hell of a lot to do once Speroni had the ball. Zaha even managed to turn in the box before a shot which I though Hart should have done better with. Bloody Great though

Ardent Eagle Forever
30-10-2017, 04:05 PM
Interesting point. A shame however Jose Fonte was booed when clearly genuinely injured

This, it was disgusting. Anyone know what he injured? Wife thinks fifth metatarsal.

Ardent Eagle Forever
30-10-2017, 04:06 PM
People booed Fonte because he shunned going the quick way off the pitch behind the goal, insisting that he could run to the side, made about four yards and then started hopping.

They were booing long before that.

SW11 Andy
30-10-2017, 04:08 PM
No. All Antonio had to do was stay in the corner and game over with time wasting on their part working perfectly. He is 100% to blame

He would not have needed to, had they not had 6 mins of injury time. Serves them right for behaving like a bunch of Italian players from the 80's

bald-eagle
30-10-2017, 04:43 PM
we're too soft on ex players. Fine, give a clap and a cheer when they come out for the line up, after that anything goes - they are the opposition don't forget!

Shipp Ahoy!
30-10-2017, 04:43 PM
TBF, he got a good applause once he left the pitch and headed towards the tunnel.

Perhaps most thought he was just taking the mickey and then clapped when realised he was in trouble... mind it was pretty obvious a long time before they stopped booing! Couldn't bring myself to boo a top player for us as annoying as the delay was.

Shipp Ahoy!
30-10-2017, 04:44 PM
we're too soft on ex players. Fine, give a clap and a cheer when they come out for the line up, after that anything goes - they are the opposition don't forget!

Not sure you can say that :D

He got booed while injured, meanwhile West Ham fans sang James Tomkins name for half the game including when he nearly scored!

Yoda
30-10-2017, 04:50 PM
Not sure you can say that :D

He got booed while injured, meanwhile West Ham fans sang James Tomkins name for half the game including when he nearly scored!

Not all the songs they sang about Tomkins were positive ones!

Lords Eagle
31-10-2017, 08:21 AM
I agree. It works perfectly in rugby. But football won’t change because it thrives on the drama and controversy.

Also rugby is more of a natural stop/start game anyway that's why they stop the clock when the game is stopped.

red&blue_moomin
31-10-2017, 12:54 PM
US paper because Im abroad at the moment and it came up on my google search first, but I actually read it first on the BBC football site months again, so the source is relevent what ever paper it is.

The rules have been changing with Goal-line technology and video replays, Fifa has been making changes that actually happen.

They've certainly been picking up lots of loose change...........

Les Butler
31-10-2017, 01:07 PM
This is a well made point. Having the away fans in that corner means the closet target for their abuse is the family stand

I know the question is where else to put them but I have seen some really bad stuff being directed at basically families and kids

I have no solution just saying

Was watching some of the West Ham vids on the net (love it when the goal went in) and trust me there were a few Palace in the family stand giving it some to the West Ham support winding them up :supergrin:

Sharkba1t
31-10-2017, 01:15 PM
This, it was disgusting. Anyone know what he injured? Wife thinks fifth metatarsal.

Looked like the third from where I was standing. Also noticed his nail varnish was chipped on his little finger of the left hand, but I wasn't paying much attention.

red&blue_moomin
31-10-2017, 01:16 PM
This is just glorious

https://www.reddit.com/r/Hammers/comments/79autm/crystal_palace_2_2_west_ham_premier_league/?sort=new

They've gotten so many undeserved wins at Selhurst recently so this result great. Even though Joe Hart suddenly remembered he's an international class goalkeeper and stopped us getting a win.

Levski
31-10-2017, 01:21 PM
Rotherham away, about 15 years ago. The first half finished after 4pm. Never happened again from memory....

I vaguely remember listening to that game on the radio. Wasn't that the opening game of the season, when refs were told to religiously keep adding minutes on for almost any stoppage, e.g. a goal is one extra minute, a direct free kick is another minute, or something like that?

I remember the commentators being bemused and said it was like when a rule is slightly changed before say a World Cup when refs have been told to 'clamp down' on diving or somesuch, which is then heavily policed in the first couple of games then quietly dropped. That seemed to be what happened here.

Did it really involve a 2nd party timekeeper? I can't remember.

Gotta admit I quite like the randomness/drama/outrage of added time. It is kind of wrong, but is one of those quite interesting, old-skool and illogical features of football. Obviously being on the wrong end of dodgy timekeeping is horrible, but I quite like the unvarnished element of it.

If it was up to me I'd get rid of goalline technology, third and fourth officials, the works. As for TV replays, not for me. No way.

Too much in this world is 'objectively' measured and I like the analogue / judgment element.

Unless it goes against Palace, in which case the ref is corrupt, of course.

MFBias
31-10-2017, 02:24 PM
I vaguely remember listening to that game on the radio. Wasn't that the opening game of the season, when refs were told to religiously keep adding minutes on for almost any stoppage, e.g. a goal is one extra minute, a direct free kick is another minute, or something like that?

I remember the commentators being bemused and said it was like when a rule is slightly changed before say a World Cup when refs have been told to 'clamp down' on diving or somesuch, which is then heavily policed in the first couple of games then quietly dropped. That seemed to be what happened here.

Did it really involve a 2nd party timekeeper? I can't remember.

Gotta admit I quite like the randomness/drama/outrage of added time. It is kind of wrong, but is one of those quite interesting, old-skool and illogical features of football. Obviously being on the wrong end of dodgy timekeeping is horrible, but I quite like the unvarnished element of it.

If it was up to me I'd get rid of goalline technology, third and fourth officials, the works. As for TV replays, not for me. No way.

Too much in this world is 'objectively' measured and I like the analogue / judgment element.

Unless it goes against Palace, in which case the ref is corrupt, of course.

That just sounds like the the idea was poorly excuted, it needs a time keeper and shortening the game to a reduced lenght, rather than arbitrarily adding minutes for incidents.

It would improve the quality of football. The ball will be in play and teams will have to keep the ball rather than waste time.