PDA

View Full Version : Why do we always kick off towards the Whitehorse End?


FMH57
08-11-2017, 11:19 AM
Seeing as a home form has been chronic for the last few years, a change maybe an idea.
For the vast majority of home games we play towards the Whitehorse End in the first half, probably as a result of us coming out and lining up in front of the Holmesdale, and very few teams these days switching ends after the toss. Not saying it's a direct cause , but how many times have we sat there and the like of Bournemouth,Burnley , Swansea,West Ham, Sunderland have taken an early lead and we have gone in at half time with all to do? Seeing as these bottom of the table scraps are mostly low scoring matches, and the emphasis most managers put on the importance of the first goal, shouldn't we be doing everything to try and get that crucial first goal, particularly in the first half?

The point in hand is that we are more likely to get a crucial decision in our favour playing towards the Holmesdale with the crowd playing their part in maybe "influencing" match officials. The game against West Ham is a good example, where a legitimate penalty appeal against Zaha is turned down at the Whitehorse End with the game at 0-0, whereas we get the decision in Townsend's favour at the Holmesdale End in the second half , but are already 0-2 down.

Another factor is the influence the away fans have over the match officials when we are kicking towards the Whitehorse, with the fans almost directly on the back of the linesman and inevitably close on 3,000 making a lot more noise than the family Whitehorse End.

I would suggest that next few home games, and obviously depending on the toss, we try to kick towards the Holmesdale End in the first half.
Just a thought , but desperate times need cunning plans.

Sp1Eagle
08-11-2017, 11:24 AM
Seeing as a home form has been chronic for the last few years, a change maybe an idea.

No.

GreatGonzo
08-11-2017, 11:25 AM
Most clubs kick towards their most hostile end in the second half, Liverpool to the Kop, Newcastle the Gollowgate End, Man U the stretford End.

When we were battling for the point against West Ham, in those vital final minutes the players were playing towards their biggest support. Did that make a difference?

When away teams win the toss they usually change ends to disrupt the home teams usual pattern.

FMH57
08-11-2017, 11:45 AM
Most clubs kick towards their most hostile end in the second half, Liverpool to the Kop, Newcastle the Gollowgate End, Man U the stretford End.

When we were battling for the point against West Ham, in those vital final minutes the players were playing towards their biggest support. Did that make a difference?

When away teams win the toss they usually change ends to disrupt the home teams usual pattern.

Most teams , in fact 99% of them , don't have our home form. If any team wants to" disrupt " our usual home form they are quite welcome.

cockles
08-11-2017, 12:00 PM
FMH57, good point made.

Do you have observations on a sample of matches where we HAVE won the 3 points?

Any stats for matches where the we attacked Whitehouse in 2nd half, i.e. opposition won the toss?

GreatGonzo
08-11-2017, 12:08 PM
Most teams , in fact 99% of them , don't have our home form. If any team wants to" disrupt " our usual home form they are quite welcome.

4 pts in past 2 games!

W2 D1 L3 in past 6 games.

W3 D2 L5 in past 10 games.

W5 D2 L5 in past 12 games.

Ok none of it is spectacular form but all represents more than a point a game which keeps you up.

A couple of anomalies where we dipped below that level for 1 game but you have to go a long way back to find a time we drop below that mark for more than 1 match.

This is ok because our away form is very similar. You only need great home form to survive if you cannot win away like Burnley last year.

GreatGonzo
08-11-2017, 12:10 PM
FMH57, good point made.

Do you have observations on a sample of matches where we HAVE won the 3 points?

Any stats for matches where the we attacked Whitehouse in 2nd half, i.e. opposition won the toss?

We must have a 100% toss rate cos i think we have kicked towards the Holmesdale 2nd half in every game this season.

CharlieCPFC
08-11-2017, 12:11 PM
I've always felt this is another added factor which can give an advantage. We've done it for years, and I tend to remember playing Millwall at home in which we lost 1-0 in which Jackett insisted on winning the toss and switching halves purely for the reason mentioned in this thread. It's a psychological factor in my eyes, when you're chasing for a goal or from an opposition view you're holding onto a lead and you have more hostile voices in behind you it'll of course have some impact.

Reg_Maudling
08-11-2017, 12:20 PM
Why did we water our own half (holmesdale end) before the west ham game?

Understand of course why that half was watered after half time

All four goals that end

chelmsfordeagle
08-11-2017, 12:23 PM
Sevilla play towards the biris (the loud stand) in the first half. I'm not sure if this is the same for other Spanish teams. Also in Spain there is hardly any away support so kicking off towards the away fans isn't a consideration.

Forever Stripes
08-11-2017, 01:34 PM
Games tend to 'open up' more in the second half as players tire, then attacking the most passionate supporters end must have an added advantage. I say leave this as they are.

GreatGonzo
08-11-2017, 01:49 PM
Why did we water our own half (holmesdale end) before the west ham game?

Understand of course why that half was watered after half time

All four goals that end

Think we water both halves but do them separately.

Son of Ron
08-11-2017, 01:57 PM
We must have a 100% toss rate cos i think we have kicked towards the Holmesdale 2nd half in every game this season.

100% is harsh on Wilf, but the rest have sure played like a bunch of tossers.

MFBias
08-11-2017, 02:26 PM
Seeing as a home form has been chronic for the last few years, a change maybe an idea.
For the vast majority of home games we play towards the Whitehorse End in the first half, probably as a result of us coming out and lining up in front of the Holmesdale, and very few teams these days switching ends after the toss. Not saying it's a direct cause , but how many times have we sat there and the like of Bournemouth,Burnley , Swansea,West Ham, Sunderland have taken an early lead and we have gone in at half time with all to do? Seeing as these bottom of the table scraps are mostly low scoring matches, and the emphasis most managers put on the importance of the first goal, shouldn't we be doing everything to try and get that crucial first goal, particularly in the first half?

The point in hand is that we are more likely to get a crucial decision in our favour playing towards the Holmesdale with the crowd playing their part in maybe "influencing" match officials. The game against West Ham is a good example, where a legitimate penalty appeal against Zaha is turned down at the Whitehorse End with the game at 0-0, whereas we get the decision in Townsend's favour at the Holmesdale End in the second half , but are already 0-2 down.

Another factor is the influence the away fans have over the match officials when we are kicking towards the Whitehorse, with the fans almost directly on the back of the linesman and inevitably close on 3,000 making a lot more noise than the family Whitehorse End.

I would suggest that next few home games, and obviously depending on the toss, we try to kick towards the Holmesdale End in the first half.
Just a thought , but desperate times need cunning plans.

Another person looking for any reason other than football matters why we have poor home form. No it isnt because the HF have a drum, or that a banger went off or that that the lights flash. This is just overthinking, not a cunning plan, the more the management look to superstitions rather than football matters the more the poor form would continue, we need to accept responsibility that we just are not very good.

FMH57
08-11-2017, 02:27 PM
I suppose it all depends which goal you consider to be the most important, the first goal or the last goal. It just seem these days , particularly when you are playing relegation rivals, that first goal seems to be the most important and this is what we are consistently told by managers. Its seems to be a pretty bad pattern we are in where when we are favourites for a game like Huddersfield, Swansea, West Ham, Southampton this season invariably a groan has gone around the ground as a result of an early away goal at the Holmesdale end. Similar to Swansea and Burnley earlier in the year. It would be nice for a change for us to get that early goal.

FMH57
08-11-2017, 02:31 PM
Another person looking for any reason other than football matters why we have poor home form. No it isnt because the HF have a drum, or that a banger went off or that that the lights flash. This is just overthinking, not a cunning plan, the more the management look to superstitions rather than football matters the more the poor form would continue, we need to accept responsibility that we just are not very good.

Ah, we'll just give up then. Perhaps we should have done that four seasons ago and saved us all a lot of hassle.

firesign
08-11-2017, 03:19 PM
I suppose it all depends which goal you consider to be the most important, the first goal or the last goal. It just seem these days , particularly when you are playing relegation rivals, that first goal seems to be the most important and this is what we are consistently told by managers. Its seems to be a pretty bad pattern we are in where when we are favourites for a game like Huddersfield, Swansea, West Ham, Southampton this season invariably a groan has gone around the ground as a result of an early away goal at the Holmesdale end. Similar to Swansea and Burnley earlier in the year. It would be nice for a change for us to get that early goal.

a fair point

it wouldn't do any harm to try it for one game

Reg_Maudling
08-11-2017, 03:22 PM
Think we water both halves but do them separately.

I didn't see both halves watered before the westham game and in several other games have only seen the holmesdale end half watered

I always thought it was to make that end of the pitch more slippery which is worse overall for defenders than attackers

MFBias
08-11-2017, 03:29 PM
Ah, we'll just give up then. Perhaps we should have done that four seasons ago and saved us all a lot of hassle.

Yes you should give up making up theories as to why the team are failing as we have not impact on the performance on the team, the only thing we can do is be vocal at games to either support or deride, that's it.

Hector
08-11-2017, 03:38 PM
Under Paul Hart didn't we change to kicking to Whitehorse second half? Anyway our form has been so bad ends have made little difference although we are on an epic run of 2 home games undefeated. It must be a couple of years since that last happened:D

Pierre
08-11-2017, 04:11 PM
Palace prefer as do many other teams playing at home to play with their backs to the home support in the first halves of home matches so they can attack towards the Holmesdale (home end) in the second half.
They succeed more often by winning the toss, choosing ends and thus conceding kick off.
Whereas the opposition may win the toss and prefer to choose to kick off rather than choose ends.

Pitch watering has clearly defined regulations:-
The pitch watering schedule must be communicated by the home club at the
matchday organisational meeting. The pitch must be watered evenly and not only
in certain areas. As a general rule, pitch watering must finish 60 minutes before
kick-off. However, upon decision of the home club, pitch watering may also take
place after that time, provided it takes place:
a. between 10 and 5 minutes before kick-off, and/or
b. during half-time (for a maximum of 5 minutes).
The referee is entitled to request changes to the schedule.

alanlee11
08-11-2017, 05:43 PM
We seem to score far more goals at the Whitehorse end the last year or so.

Sharkba1t
08-11-2017, 05:44 PM
I suppose it all depends which goal you consider to be the most important, the first goal or the last goal. It just seem these days , particularly when you are playing relegation rivals, that first goal seems to be the most important and this is what we are consistently told by managers. Its seems to be a pretty bad pattern we are in where when we are favourites for a game like Huddersfield, Swansea, West Ham, Southampton this season invariably a groan has gone around the ground as a result of an early away goal at the Holmesdale end. Similar to Swansea and Burnley earlier in the year. It would be nice for a change for us to get that early goal.

a goal at any time would be welcome.

FMH57
08-11-2017, 05:47 PM
We must have a 100% toss rate cos i think we have kicked towards the Holmesdale 2nd half in every game this season.

Actually in 15 games played at home in the Premiership in 2017 we have 100% record of kicking towards the Holmesdale 2nd half. Which would suggest that it is not a question of who wins the coin toss, just a matter of which side of the field the teams line up.

Palace Kebab
08-11-2017, 06:12 PM
When the opposition team wins the toss they just say. ‘Stay as we are’ or ‘we’ll kick off first’ most the time as makes little difference. Occasionally they ask to change ends, but most just don’t bother

CJ PLUM
08-11-2017, 06:50 PM
Most teams, including at park level, will kick with any perceived advantage in the second half. This may be due to fans behind the goal attacked , wind or slope.
I always preferred to take any advantage in the first half in case conditions changed or in the hope you could gain a lead and hold on during the second half.

Jedinak often seemed to deliberately chose to defend the main ends such as the Kop in the first half if he won the toss.

alanlee11
08-11-2017, 07:00 PM
Punch once decided to play towards the Holmesdale in one game, think he mentioned it in an interview at the end of last season, can't remember which game it was.

NorthPalace23
08-11-2017, 07:03 PM
Love kicking towards the Holmesdale in the 2nd half!

Do not change this!

palacemetros
08-11-2017, 09:35 PM
Punch once decided to play towards the Holmesdale in one game, think he mentioned it in an interview at the end of last season, can't remember which game it was.

Surprised he remembers which end he's playing towards. He must get quite dizzy with all that spinning around....

(I like him really!)

GreatGonzo
08-11-2017, 09:50 PM
When the opposition team wins the toss they just say. ‘Stay as we are’ or ‘we’ll kick off first’ most the time as makes little difference. Occasionally they ask to change ends, but most just don’t bother

Really?

GreatGonzo
08-11-2017, 09:51 PM
Palace prefer as do many other teams playing at home to play with their backs to the home support in the first halves of home matches so they can attack towards the Holmesdale (home end) in the second half.
They succeed more often by winning the toss, choosing ends and thus conceding kick off.
Whereas the opposition may win the toss and prefer to choose to kick off rather than choose ends.

Pitch watering has clearly defined regulations:-
The pitch watering schedule must be communicated by the home club at the
matchday organisational meeting. The pitch must be watered evenly and not only
in certain areas. As a general rule, pitch watering must finish 60 minutes before
kick-off. However, upon decision of the home club, pitch watering may also take
place after that time, provided it takes place:
a. between 10 and 5 minutes before kick-off, and/or
b. during half-time (for a maximum of 5 minutes).
The referee is entitled to request changes to the schedule.

Seriously?

Eddie McGoldrick's tash
08-11-2017, 09:55 PM
Most clubs kick towards their most hostile end in the second half, Liverpool to the Kop, Newcastle the Gollowgate End, Man U the stretford End.

When we were battling for the point against West Ham, in those vital final minutes the players were playing towards their biggest support. Did that make a difference?

When away teams win the toss they usually change ends to disrupt the home teams usual pattern.

Would we have already been 2-0 at down Half-time?

I suggested this same change in the match day thread during that game. So often we lose home games in the first half, I think changing it up would certainly be worth a try.

GreatGonzo
08-11-2017, 10:03 PM
Would we have already been 2-0 at down Half-time?

I suggested this same change in the match day thread during that game. So often we lose home games in the first half, I think changing it up would certainly be worth a try.

I am not saying we should not do it, there is merit to the argument about are you better off getting the first goal or the last etc?

One factor that is unlikely to change is that the second half is usually longer than the first half, sometimes by as much as 10%.

Also do you need to draw off the crowd early in the game when you are fresh or later when you are starting to struggle.

Agree we need to stop going behind but wonder if changing ends would be the solution to that.

Eaglesfan1
09-11-2017, 12:24 AM
Maybe I'm clutching here, but I always thought it was more to do with the away team wanting their fans behind them for the first half?

Which end did we attack in the first half before the away fans were moved? Seem to remember it being the other way round.

Also any Palace game I go to the Palace keeper will always come to our end of the stadium pre kick off. And only if there are external factors such as lighting or wind at play will there be a change

Hedgehog
09-11-2017, 02:36 AM
It's just wrong going the wrong way in the second half... goes back to standing on the Holmesdale.

I guess my eyes have never been that great, so always good to see Palace attack the Holmesdale in the 2nd half.

I guess v Burnley in '79 we went the other way, and that worked out good.

GreatGonzo
09-11-2017, 10:05 AM
Maybe I'm clutching here, but I always thought it was more to do with the away team wanting their fans behind them for the first half?

Which end did we attack in the first half before the away fans were moved? Seem to remember it being the other way round.

Also any Palace game I go to the Palace keeper will always come to our end of the stadium pre kick off. And only if there are external factors such as lighting or wind at play will there be a change

That is because a lot of clubs put the away fans at the opposite end of the ground to their main support. It is one reason why an away team might leave the ends as they are because they too want to kick towards their own fans second half!

chrisophiex
09-11-2017, 11:22 AM
Games tend to 'open up' more in the second half as players tire, then attacking the most passionate supporters end must have an added advantage. I say leave this as they are.


We're normally 2-0 down by then .....

ForzaPalace
09-11-2017, 04:12 PM
Should kick towards the Main Stand IMO

MFBias
09-11-2017, 04:17 PM
Maybe I'm clutching here, but I always thought it was more to do with the away team wanting their fans behind them for the first half?

Which end did we attack in the first half before the away fans were moved? Seem to remember it being the other way round.

Also any Palace game I go to the Palace keeper will always come to our end of the stadium pre kick off. And only if there are external factors such as lighting or wind at play will there be a change

It's been that why since I had my first season ticket in 98/99. Sass Curcic scored a great goal against Sheffield United to win 1-0 scored at the Holmesdale end 2nd half as one example.

El Aguila
09-11-2017, 04:31 PM
I think it’s a good idea!

FMH57
09-11-2017, 08:54 PM
https://bitterandblue.sbnation.com/2012/8/3/3217081/the-importance-of-scoring-the-first-goal-of-the-game

Stats on why the first goal is so important. Hesitant to say, but a lot more important when you are playing shit. Confidence an all that.....

Coastal Palace
09-11-2017, 09:04 PM
Always preferred us attacking The Holmesdale 2nd half.

FMH57
09-11-2017, 09:18 PM
Always preferred us attacking The Holmesdale 2nd half.

Definition of madness: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
In 2017 we have played 15 Premier games and in EVERY one have kicked towards the Whitehorse first half. Think about it.

MFBias
10-11-2017, 12:59 AM
Definition of madness: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
In 2017 we have played 15 Premier games and in EVERY one have kicked towards the Whitehorse first half. Think about it.

Think about this, it is much deeper than what end we play. Your quote which you have used applies to running an experiment under controlled conditions with certain parameters, what end we play is a very small factor compared to the all the factors of our under performing team. It's almost like saying we have played all our games in the same kit, therefore we should change kit, as it's the definition of madness, then you could finish the sentence with something smug.

Hedgehog
10-11-2017, 01:46 AM
It would be like putting your sock on the other foot than you normally do first... it is just not right (or left).

mcmean
10-11-2017, 09:57 AM
Definition of madness: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
In 2017 we have played 15 Premier games and in EVERY one have kicked towards the Whitehorse first half. Think about it.

And what about the season before that, or the one before that, or the years in the championship?

Or what about me putting my lucky socks on?

Trilby
10-11-2017, 10:21 AM
Would argue our home form in recent weeks has actually improved; Selhurst finally is starting to feel a bit more like a fortress again.

Vince Hilaire's Afro
10-11-2017, 10:30 AM
Definition of madness: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
In 2017 we have played 15 Premier games and in EVERY one have kicked towards the Whitehorse first half. Think about it.

Kicking towards the Holmesdale has not only got us to the PL, but kept us there? I say continue, madness not to