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-   -   Article 50 [not just another Brexit thread] (http://www.cpfc.org/forums/showthread.php?t=266459)

mik59 29-07-2016 12:31 PM

Article 50 [not just another Brexit thread]
 
Oh no! I hear you cry, and understandably so. But this thread is meant to be stand alone. It is not a re-run of the referendum thread. It is not about the impact. There has been one thread for that and the other thread is running.

Also, this is not about future EU trade deals, an issue which has infiltrated the Brexit impact thread.

This is about Article 50, which does not cover trade deals. Trade talks may, at best, be run in parallel but trade will not be part of the UK's EU withdrawal agreement under Article 50. The overlap may well be the broad area of our future EU relationship, once we we have left, so some of that legitimately belongs here too.

While we know the UK Government will not invoke Article 50 until 2017 at earliest, the Commission have appointed their chief Brexit negotiator (Michel Barnier) and our PM is touring the EU looking at various big, relevant issues.

So what could be covered in Article 50? A selective list is:

- access for UK citizens to the European Health Insurance Card and acquired / vested rights of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK

- transfer of regulatory responsibilities

- arrangements for contracts drawn up in accordance with EU law

- winding down EU funds e.g. for UK regions and farmers

- access to EU agencies that play a role in UK domestic law, and arrangements for the closure/relocation of EU agencies headquartered in the UK (for Banking and Medicines)

- cross-border security arrangements including access to EU databases and involvement in EuroPol

- co-operation on foreign policy, including sanctions

- departure (or not?) from the Single European Sky arrangement as well as continued access to the EU’s single aviation markets and involvement in other integrated transport including maritime

- rights of UK fishermen to fish in traditional non-UK waters, including those in the North Sea, & rights of EU fishermen to UK waters

- involvement in the EU integrated energy market

- status of the UK’s environmental commitments made as party to various UN environmental conventions and currently implemented through EU legislation.

It would be interesting to hear from BBSers that have direct knowledge in any of these areas.

In terms of resolution, I think the 1st in my list should be ticked off quickly by agreeing to maintain existing rights, despite the conflicting noises from government on this.

eaglejez 29-07-2016 12:34 PM

oh no !

1905 29-07-2016 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mik59 (Post 13129212)
In terms of resolution, I think the 1st in my list should be ticked off quickly by agreeing to maintain existing rights, despite the conflicting noises from government on this.

Agree on this one, sure most of us would be happy that we retain existing rights.

SKATE 29-07-2016 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mik59 (Post 13129212)
Oh no! I hear you cry, and understandably so. But this thread is meant to be stand alone. It is not a re-run of the referendum thread. It is not about the impact. There has been one thread for that and the other thread is running.

Also, this is not about future EU trade deals, an issue which has infiltrated the Brexit impact thread.

This is about Article 50, which does not cover trade deals. Trade talks may, at best, be run in parallel but trade will not be part of the UK's EU withdrawal agreement under Article 50. The overlap may well be the broad area of our future EU relationship, once we we have left, so some of that legitimately belongs here too.

While we know the UK Government will not invoke Article 50 until 2017 at earliest, the Commission have appointed their chief Brexit negotiator (Michel Barnier) and our PM is touring the EU looking at various big, relevant issues.

So what could be covered in Article 50? A selective list is:

- access for UK citizens to the European Health Insurance Card and acquired / vested rights of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK

- transfer of regulatory responsibilities

- arrangements for contracts drawn up in accordance with EU law

- winding down EU funds e.g. for UK regions and farmers

- access to EU agencies that play a role in UK domestic law, and arrangements for the closure/relocation of EU agencies headquartered in the UK (for Banking and Medicines)

- cross-border security arrangements including access to EU databases and involvement in EuroPol

- co-operation on foreign policy, including sanctions

- departure (or not?) from the Single European Sky arrangement as well as continued access to the EUís single aviation markets and involvement in other integrated transport including maritime

- rights of UK fishermen to fish in traditional non-UK waters, including those in the North Sea, & rights of EU fishermen to UK waters

- involvement in the EU integrated energy market

- status of the UKís environmental commitments made as party to various UN environmental conventions and currently implemented through EU legislation.

It would be interesting to hear from BBSers that have direct knowledge in any of these areas.

In terms of resolution, I think the 1st in my list should be ticked off quickly by agreeing to maintain existing rights, despite the conflicting noises from government on this.

Go and get on with your decorating!! ;)

mik59 29-07-2016 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKATE (Post 13129286)
Go and get on with your decorating!! ;)

Lunch break innit. (And brush cleaning.)

Meh!

GreatGonzo 29-07-2016 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1905 (Post 13129284)
Agree on this one, sure most of us would be happy that we retain existing rights.

It will be interesting see where the balance of power lies in many of these areas.

We would like the right of Brits abroad to stay abroad, and in return EU citizens remain, however we know that there are more EU citizens in the UK and Brits abroad. It would be interesting to see the effects of the EHIC as my understanding is (mostly due to ineptness in the UK) that we claim very little from abroad whilst they claim more from us.

Is there a balance of power shift in other areas on the list?

This is why i suspect the trade exit will run in parallel as the EU hold the balance of power in trade, but if we hold the balance of power in terms of Article 50 do they start to cancel each other out?

mik59 29-07-2016 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatGonzo (Post 13129304)
It will be interesting see where the balance of power lies in many of these areas.

We would like the right of Brits abroad to stay abroad, and in return EU citizens remain, however we know that there are more EU citizens in the UK and Brits abroad. It would be interesting to see the effects of the EHIC as my understanding is (mostly due to ineptness in the UK) that we claim very little from abroad whilst they claim more from us.

Is there a balance of power shift in other areas on the list?

This is why i suspect the trade exit will run in parallel as the EU hold the balance of power in trade, but if we hold the balance of power in terms of Article 50 do they start to cancel each other out?

I'm not sure if the issue of citizens' rights is much to do with power. It seems to me that it is fairly straightforward.

But, more so, I don't see that we hold many cards on any of the A50 stuff e.g. we need access to energy from other EU countries as we face occasional blackouts without it. The same probably for transport stuff as it's impossible to see how we can go unilateral in practice. Then consider the EU Banking Authority in London albeit the issue of the single market and financial services may be more important. I can't see us winning much on fishing either as we can't impose an international boundary (as France etc too close on one side and Ireland on the other) plus fish don't understand borders.

The only area I can see where they need us is our, so far, UN standing so useful for sanctions etc and our defence / intelligence expertise.

But after all this you could argue that A50 has no power play on either side. It is simply technical stuff that needs to be done. We could leave without settling any or all of it but that would be chaotic, so the pressure is all on us.

TAK 29-07-2016 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKATE (Post 13129286)
Go and get on with your decorating!! ;)

He's still decorating?

Chief Brody 29-07-2016 01:49 PM

Does the Council not make the decision on the exit deal? If so, are they still to appoint their negotiator or are they deferring to the Commission to do the heavy lifting with Barnier reporting to them?

Mat ov CPFC 29-07-2016 01:59 PM

In terms of the populace issue, then I feel that any EU citizens who have UK NI numbers that have been active i.e contributed tax and/or NI contributions over the last 18 months or can prove positive residency in the same period could be granted permanent remain to stay in the UK from a specific date to be agreed upon.

And I would expect similar in terms of UK citizens living in the EU.

Nobody wants to see population exchanges and I suspect that many EU nations do not relish the strains of seeing lots of young people move back to them. Lets keep who we have and they keep who they have.

As to future quota's, well that is up in the air but outside of Ireland, with whom we have long standing agreements, then quotas would need to be discussed and agreed upon. NI numbers would be the key to managing this. All proposals welcome.

Adlerhorst 29-07-2016 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAK (Post 13129435)
He's still decorating?

Mik will always still be decorating

El Aguila 29-07-2016 02:09 PM

I'm sorry, but that won't be acceptable to me. I want an EU passport and to be able to retain my British nationality. I don't see why my rights should be affected by a referendum in which I was not allowed to vote. I also want my pension and social security rights in the UK as in Spain.

Mat ov CPFC 29-07-2016 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Aguila (Post 13129481)
I'm sorry, but that won't be acceptable to me. I want an EU passport and to be able to retain my British nationality. I don't see why my rights should be affected by a referendum in which I was not allowed to vote. I also want my pension and social security rights in the UK as in Spain.

You pay NI in the UK and you get a UK pension. If you want an EU passport then get a Spanish one.

El Aguila 29-07-2016 02:14 PM

I have paid copious amounts in both countries. However I can't get a Spanish passport without renouncing my British nationality. And why the blazes should I have to do that?

Cake and Eat It 29-07-2016 02:48 PM

Because thems the rules

El Aguila 29-07-2016 02:52 PM

Not if I sue your sorry collective white British arse.

delboy01 29-07-2016 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Aguila (Post 13129488)
I have paid copious amounts in both countries. However I can't get a Spanish passport without renouncing my British nationality. And why the blazes should I have to do that?

That's a Spainish rule.

El Aguila 29-07-2016 03:02 PM

Yes it is.

in-exile 29-07-2016 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1905 (Post 13129284)
Agree on this one, sure most of us would be happy that we retain existing rights.

**** off.... the fish is ours!!!!

GreatGonzo 29-07-2016 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mik59 (Post 13129334)
I can't see us winning much on fishing either as we can't impose an international boundary (as France etc too close on one side and Ireland on the other) plus fish don't understand borders.

Complete the following line:

Rule Britannia, Britannia _______________

We fish where we want, we fish where we want, We are the British, we fish where we want.

On a serious point, given Northern Ireland is part of Britain does that not negate some of the Ireland issue when it comes to territorial waters.

This map suggests what our fishing waters would be:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/A...ime_claims.png


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