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  #901  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:52 AM
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  #902  
Old 11-11-2017, 12:51 PM
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I don't recall posting those last 2 comments.
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  #903  
Old 11-11-2017, 05:42 PM
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Old 11-11-2017, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by New LP View Post
If anything, for all the ambiguity of how it reads, I’d say the first paragraph clearly illustrates that the club have shafted the fans to save money. And then it can all be blamed on the police. The idea that this exonerates the club from responsibility and that people owe it an apology is laughable.

We could and should have taken the full allocation. Every other club does for derby games in this league. Derby games which represent way more of a threat of public disorder than this one.

I fail to see how you can read into my original post that this decision was primarily due to financial considerations by Palace. Obviously if you throw enough money at the match security problems you may solve them so any decision eventually has cost implications for clubs and councils. This thread has been similar to the JFK assassination thread where conspiracy theorists believe whatever supports their own theory rather than finding a theory to suit all of the facts. Until and unless the club issues a definitive statement it’s all speculation so any ambiguity is because we have had to read between the lines of what’s said or even not said and judge the body language.

A meeting between the clubs, Police and fans groups had been proposed in July when it was stated that any decisions would be mutually applicable at both fixtures once the dates were confirmed. The Police and clubs had clearly held initial planning meetings months in advance but fans groups were only invited after the ticket allocations had already been announced. Sussex Police informed the meeting that they wanted to replicate the controls implemented at the play-off semi-finals, including restricted allocations, but had inferred earlier on twitter that Palace was responsible. Phil Alexander was clearly annoyed by this at the earlier SAG meeting and he had implied that they had opposed this restriction. Meanwhile the silence of the Met Police and Palace officials at the fans meeting was deafening.
The clubs and Police may well have disagreed but eventually a consensus decision would have to be reached, possibly even with arbitration from the Premier League. Even more importantly both sets of Police could not be seen to disagree on their tactical decisions. Part of any agreement would require that all parties publically back the final decisions, much like collective cabinet responsibility, and organisations like the Premier League usually insist that its members do not disagree in public. In order to fulfil top grade fixtures clubs need to co-operate with the Police and other emergency services alongside the local authority that is responsible for safety regulations and hence the issue of a valid safety certificate to allow public attendance at matches.

The Police have based any decision on the history of incidents at these fixtures, both inside and outside the grounds. Many people falsely believe that we have well behaved fans. Whilst the press may laud the ‘famous atmosphere’, amongst the Police Constabularies we have a more notorious reputation. This is not the same sort of reputation that club ‘firms’ would gain in the 80’s but more a whole series of anti-social behaviour incidents. At SAG meetings the Met Police will regularly read out a litany of incidents that take place at away games, usually away from the ground. The reported incidents both during and after the game last Sunday are typical examples. Of course the Brighton restrictions are not directly due to these problems but it all adds up This information is shared by the Police intelligence officers and club security officers so it directly affects their match planning and the restrictions imposed on all our fans.

As has been said before in another thread – “we reap what they sow”; actions by a few result in restrictions on the many. The behaviour by all fans at these fixtures will affect the restrictions and potential numbers at future meetings of the clubs.
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  #905  
Old 11-11-2017, 05:44 PM
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It's obvious from the travel information, there is a co-ordinated effort to make travel as awkward and sterile (no drinking), as possible.
Waiting in a coach in the car park for up to 2 hours before kick-off ? Do people think that coaches will get there early to allow fans to drink in the ground ?
Special train to get home which will be over-crowded and allow police to kettle fans after the game.

Sorry to be so down about this, but this is turning into a right palava, as if the Mansex isn't a shltty enough place to get to in the first place.
And the police are probably recording threads like this as part of their "intelligence gathering", so they can justify a nice quiet night of overtime.

It's me, I'm getting too old for this 5hlt

and thank you CJ Plum for your informed input, which highlights how all interested parties had their say,...then did what the police told them

Mt gripe is that now CPFC's allocation has been reduced, you know there is going to be draconian and OTT policing and stewarding,....and guess what ? They'll be no trouble,.....so we'll use that again next time

Last edited by foresthillbilly; 11-11-2017 at 05:52 PM.
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  #906  
Old 11-11-2017, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by foresthillbilly View Post

It's me, I'm getting too old for this 5hlt

and thank you CJ Plum for your informed input, which highlights how all interested parties had their say,...then did what the police told them

Mt gripe is that now CPFC's allocation has been reduced, you know there is going to be draconian and OTT policing and stewarding,....and guess what ? They'll be no trouble,.....so we'll use that again next time


Although the fans groups expressed disappointment at the meeting and felt like issuing a tirade against the restricted numbers, clearly the decision had already been made and we were fighting a battle that was already lost. We raised some criticisms of the arrangements so that hopefully the fans are not inconvenienced more than absolutely necessary. As is often the way I thought of points after the event that I wish had been raised.

According to Premier League rules Police or clubs cannot dictate the date or time of a fixture but given the opportunity I believe they would have probably preferred these fixtures to be played at lunchtime on a Sunday. This would have meant that drinking before the game was restricted and that more spare trains and coaches would be available to make subsidised travel a viable option. This may even have included adopting a ‘bubble system‘ for away fans. This more controlled environment could also allow a full allocation for the away supporters.

There are no plans to restrict allocations for the other London clubs who have yet to visit the Amex Stadium and present many similar problems. It is a sad reflection that Police tactical decisions are now dictated by a faceless fixture compiler at the Premier league and TV executives. We can all rage against the iniquity of the decision but until fans of both sides can be guaranteed to exhibit good behaviour we all have to sit on the naughty step. As you say the worry is that we will then be caught in a ‘catch 22’ situation where any good behaviour seemingly justifies the restriction.
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  #907  
Old 11-11-2017, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ PLUM View Post
Although the fans groups expressed disappointment at the meeting and felt like issuing a tirade against the restricted numbers, clearly the decision had already been made and we were fighting a battle that was already lost. We raised some criticisms of the arrangements so that hopefully the fans are not inconvenienced more than absolutely necessary. As is often the way I thought of points after the event that I wish had been raised.

According to Premier League rules Police or clubs cannot dictate the date or time of a fixture but given the opportunity I believe they would have probably preferred these fixtures to be played at lunchtime on a Sunday. This would have meant that drinking before the game was restricted and that more spare trains and coaches would be available to make subsidised travel a viable option. This may even have included adopting a ‘bubble system‘ for away fans. This more controlled environment could also allow a full allocation for the away supporters.

There are no plans to restrict allocations for the other London clubs who have yet to visit the Amex Stadium and present many similar problems. It is a sad reflection that Police tactical decisions are now dictated by a faceless fixture compiler at the Premier league and TV executives. We can all rage against the iniquity of the decision but until fans of both sides can be guaranteed to exhibit good behaviour we all have to sit on the naughty step. As you say the worry is that we will then be caught in a ‘catch 22’ situation where any good behaviour seemingly justifies the restriction.
Thank you for your really helpful insights into how the ticketing allocations were decided.
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  #908  
Old 11-11-2017, 08:50 PM
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We can argue about this as much as we like, even attempt to justify the decisions made. But at the end of the day, no-one can convince me that Palace Brighton matches pose a greater risk than other far more higher profile 'derby' games and 'grudge' matches that take place most weeks in the PL without the need for away allocations being reduced or placing over the top restrictions on away fans. The whole thing is quite bizarre and most definitely does not stand up to scrutiny.
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  #909  
Old 11-11-2017, 08:59 PM
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What would you vote for:
3,000 allocation and a 'bubble system' from Selhurst and Hooley?
or
2,000 allocation and independent travel for all?

If these were the only two options - no "third way" arguments this time.
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  #910  
Old 11-11-2017, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Ps View Post
What would you vote for:
3,000 allocation and a 'bubble system' from Selhurst and Hooley?
or
2,000 allocation and independent travel for all?

If these were the only two options - no "third way" arguments this time.
I know you've asked the question but looking at that in black and white, both options are pathetic.
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  #911  
Old 11-11-2017, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 7Ps View Post
What would you vote for:
3,000 allocation and a 'bubble system' from Selhurst and Hooley?
or
2,000 allocation and independent travel for all?

If these were the only two options - no "third way" arguments this time.
The 2000 option but then I have got a ticket and I am a selfish bastard.
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  #912  
Old 11-11-2017, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foresthillbilly View Post
It's obvious from the travel information, there is a co-ordinated effort to make travel as awkward and sterile (no drinking), as possible.
Waiting in a coach in the car park for up to 2 hours before kick-off ? Do people think that coaches will get there early to allow fans to drink in the ground ?
Special train to get home which will be over-crowded and allow police to kettle fans after the game.....
Mt gripe is that now CPFC's allocation has been reduced, you know there is going to be draconian and OTT policing and stewarding,....and guess what ? They'll be no trouble,.....so we'll use that again next time
Not sure what your gripe is really. We make our own way down and back by train, via a couple of pubs - its very easy to do.
Without the 'draconian' policing (the stewards have been very friendly IMO) there would be far more trouble than we've witnessed.
I actually think it works well and hope it is the same next time!
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by CJ PLUM View Post
the worry is that we will then be caught in a ‘catch 22’ situation where any good behaviour seemingly justifies the restriction.
The worry is that we're already in that catch 22 situation, as the 2,000 restriction is based on the fact that things went well at the last game there when we had a similar number.

Thanks for posting all the info, Chris. I look forward to reading your reports of the meetings when we're drawn away there in the FA Cup and we're entitled to 4,500.
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:22 AM
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The worry is that we're already in that catch 22 situation, as the 2,000 restriction is based on the fact that things went well at the last game there when we had a similar number.

Thanks for posting all the info, Chris. I look forward to reading your reports of the meetings when we're drawn away there in the FA Cup and we're entitled to 4,500.
Strangely enough I asked that very question and the response was stunned silence.
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:30 AM
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Was there much/any trouble when we lost 3-0 to them? We had a full allocation then.

Whatever happens, the police will pat themselves on the back and tell everyone what a great job that they've done. Whilst pocketing vast sums in overtime, no doubt.
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:08 AM
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I have previously tried to explain the decision process not to justify it and would gladly have argued the case for a full allocation given a chance; probably with my fingers crossed.

As Eddie has stated above the problem is that all parties are now in a catch-22 scenario.
The better the behaviour; the more justified the Police will feel in imposing these restrictions in future.
The more times that these severe restrictions are imposed; the more infamous the status of these fixtures become in the minds of those looking to cause trouble and out all proportion to reality.
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The strap line does not say Croydon and Proud , SE25 and Proud or even Crystal Palace and Proud but SOUTH LONDON AND PROUD and that is an important statement of intent.
"Prejudice is a great time saver.You can form opinions without having to get the facts." E.B. White “When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber.” Winston Churchill
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  #917  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:35 AM
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I have previously tried to explain the decision process not to justify it and would gladly have argued the case for a full allocation given a chance; probably with my fingers crossed.



As Eddie has stated above the problem is that all parties are now in a catch-22 scenario.

The better the behaviour; the more justified the Police will feel in imposing these restrictions in future.

The more times that these severe restrictions are imposed; the more infamous the status of these fixtures become in the minds of those looking to cause trouble and out all proportion to reality.

Yes we can’t win either way really - if there was major disorder with a 2,000 allocation, it would get reduced even further in the future. Although, might be academic if we go down and Brighton stay up for a few seasons.
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:42 AM
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CJ PLUM came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCJ PLUM came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCJ PLUM came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCJ PLUM came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCJ PLUM came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCJ PLUM came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCJ PLUM came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCJ PLUM came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCJ PLUM came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCJ PLUM came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCJ PLUM came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
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Originally Posted by cpfc4evandeva View Post
Was there much/any trouble when we lost 3-0 to them? We had a full allocation then.

Whatever happens, the police will pat themselves on the back and tell everyone what a great job that they've done. Whilst pocketing vast sums in overtime, no doubt.

Only Premier League games have an agreed allocation of 10% up to 3000 for away fans so we only had 2000 then but video below is still an example of trouble.

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This is just one of many videos on You Tube of incidents and escorts at previous fixtures.


The video below is a clash at Kings Cross after both teams had been at separate away games. It is almost comical how such hard men are controlled by only 2 policemen armed with batons. Its almost as though they are desperate for the sound of approaching police sirens.

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I have watched some of these videos and even recognise some faces from the 80's.
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:33 PM
foresthillbilly foresthillbilly is offline
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Informed and balanced comments from CJ Plum.
I was in a meeting (Ticketing Fans Group) in 2010 with representatives of The Board and Club. They mentioned that Brighton fans had smashed up toilets inside Selhurst (like you'd notice ), and there were lots of reports of vehicles being damaged in the streets around the ground after the game (I think we'd done them 3-0)
They said it was a tricky situation, because our fans had done damage to the AMEX so both clubs bit their respective bullets.

So there has been damage and violence , which has gone largely unreported

Wonder if the return fixture at Selhurst would be behind closed doors, if there was a chance Brighton could seal our relegation ?
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Old 12-11-2017, 03:26 PM
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King William King William is offline
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Originally Posted by foresthillbilly View Post

Wonder if the return fixture at Selhurst would be behind closed doors, if there was a chance Brighton could seal our relegation ?
what you smokin these days?
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