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  #381  
Old 14-02-2014, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by CPFC_DAVE77 View Post
I use Southern to get to and from London Bridge every day for work, it's usual for one of the two journies to be delayed.

I actually completely sympathise with a lot of the problems they have, it must be a logistical nightmare running services in this particular area.

I also feel for them when it's a Notwork Rail fault and Southern get the blame.

What I don't think is fair is that they charge a vast amount of money for services which struggle to be met.

If I was paying less, i'd accept that sometimes it's late, sometimes it's cancelled, sometimes I can't get a seat.

However, in the context of the money involved, it's hard when you have your face in some fat blokes armpit and you're delayed outside New Cross Gate to believe that you are getting value for money.
Thinking about this, perhaps they should introduce standing carriages with a cheaper price ticket, removing all the seats. I'm sure some people would jump at the chance for a cheaper season ticket. There cannot be any health and safety barriers to this can there, its not as if we don't already have carriages full of people standing already!
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  #382  
Old 14-02-2014, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by CPFC_DAVE77 View Post
I use Southern to get to and from London Bridge every day for work, it's usual for one of the two journies to be delayed.

I actually completely sympathise with a lot of the problems they have, it must be a logistical nightmare running services in this particular area.

I also feel for them when it's a Notwork Rail fault and Southern get the blame.

What I don't think is fair is that they charge a vast amount of money for services which struggle to be met.

If I was paying less, i'd accept that sometimes it's late, sometimes it's cancelled, sometimes I can't get a seat.

However, in the context of the money involved, it's hard when you have your face in some fat blokes armpit and you're delayed outside New Cross Gate to believe that you are getting value for money.
When you get on the train stand next to a fit bird with big lady lumps and wait for the surge as passengers squeeze on.
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  #383  
Old 14-02-2014, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Latvian Eagle View Post
I don't actually know so excuse my ignorance. Who increases the train fares, is it the individual companies or the DfT / TfL?
I think DFT have control over some fares, usually the high demand commuter routes, off peak low demand routes are down to the TOC.

(I might be wrong though )
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  #384  
Old 14-02-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy Adams View Post
Thinking about this, perhaps they should introduce standing carriages with a cheaper price ticket, removing all the seats. I'm sure some people would jump at the chance for a cheaper season ticket. There cannot be any health and safety barriers to this can there, its not as if we don't already have carriages full of people standing already!
People moan about not getting a seat now, can you imagine what they would say if there were no seats?
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  #385  
Old 14-02-2014, 09:55 AM
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People moan about not getting a seat now, can you imagine what they would say if there were no seats?
If it was 40pc cheaper? Not a lot, probably.
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  #386  
Old 14-02-2014, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by chav_hater View Post
If it was 40pc cheaper? Not a lot, probably.
Exactly, if you are selling standing only tickets at a discount then you are getting what you are paying for. And that should ease the pressure on the seating carriages.
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  #387  
Old 14-02-2014, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by chav_hater View Post
If it was 40pc cheaper? Not a lot, probably.
40%??? Good luck getting that past the shareholders!
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  #388  
Old 14-02-2014, 10:11 AM
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Wouldn't they just make the standing seat fare the same as it is now and then introduce a premium ticket to get a seat?

Nice idea but they would work it to their advantage not ours.
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  #389  
Old 14-02-2014, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Marki View Post
Wouldn't they just make the standing seat fare the same as it is now and then introduce a premium ticket to get a seat?

Nice idea but they would work it to their advantage not ours.
I think they have done this already - standard (standing) and 1st class sitting!!
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  #390  
Old 14-02-2014, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Smoz View Post
Long version.

However when the service is up the creek things get a little more complicated.

As this thread has been discussing Southern services into London Bridge I will use our panel nine as an example, the signaller working this panel deals with trains on the Southern side of London Bridge, the ones which terminate and start back from London Bridge station. This panels takes over the up slow and up fast trains at Bricklayers Arms junction which is just after New Cross Gate station and takes over the South London lines just after the junction at South Bermondsey, it also deals with Thameslink services crossing to and from the Southeastern side and the area between these junctions and platforms 8 to 16 (or 8 to 13 at the moment).

You as a train driver will be aware that there is a bottle neck at this point, the up fast, up main and up South London lines currently go into three reversible lines from Spa Rd to London Bridge (previously four lines), however these three reversibles also deal with trains coming out of nine platforms (currently six) to the corresponding down lines.

The trains on the South London Lines are generally booked to go into platforms 12/13 so that deals with one of the reversibles leaving two reversible lines to deal with trains going from the up slow/up fast into London Bridge as well as the trains leaving London Bridge going down towards the down slow/down fast. When making a regulating decision for up services I would need to not only take into account which service is booked in first and whether the services are running close to being on time but also whether the platforms that these services are booked into are available or are likely to be vacated in the next few minutes.

During the peak it is not uncommon to have six trains waiting outside the station waiting for a platform to come free. If you bring an up service up too far, anticipating that a down service is going to depart and the down service is then not able to leave for whatever reason then you have snookered yourself, not only have you blocked the service behind from getting into London Bridge, you may have blocked others from departing. This is why trains are held outside LBG station.

There was an old policy of giving preference to up services in the morning peak and down services in the evening, I also try and take this into account when making regulation decisions.

Other factors to be taken into account are stopping patterns of services. Yes I may have held your train leaving LBG on time for Horsham service on the down fast while a ten minute late FCC service goes first and this is contrary to PPM policy but you are calling at New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction and East Croydon.

As someone who works in the railway industry I believe that services/punctuality/reliability/safety are much better than they ever were under BR, and they are gradually improving. The network carries a lot more trains and passengers than it ever did before (and for more than our European counterparts) and the trains are more likely to get to their destination "on time".

As a passenger I would say that the service still needs a lot of improvement, is expensive to use, I believe that probably the biggest problem is a lack of information, not only to the passengers but between the different parts of the railway industry. That member of staff is probably not actually withholding information from you or telling you a pack of lies, they just don't know what is going on. Just as I have no idea why the train that should have left its platform ten minutes ago is not ready to leave, despite it having arrived on time and it is probably holding up three trains which are queuing to get in.
Many thanks for that detailed answer. Interesting you say the 'old policy of giving preference to up services in the morning peak and down services in the evening'. This implies a change. Why is that? I would've thought the sensible option would be to prioritise trains in the direction of the peak demand, to London in the morning, away from London in the evening. (Particularly in the evening, when getting people home really ought to be a priority.)

When things are up the creek who decides which trains get cancelled, terminated early or cut out certain stations? Sometimes these decisions make no sense to passengers.

Also, the thing when a lack of drivers means services are cancelled. I can understand (though not like) when this happens before a train starts its journey, but when it happens part-way through a service it's infuriating. Had a classic the other week when a Caterham train was cancelled at Purley through a lack of driver, even though they managed to find a driver to take the empty carriages back down the line towards Croydon! Why does that happen? Legal limits on driver hours, or jobsworth drivers backed up by stroppy unions?
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  #391  
Old 14-02-2014, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
Many thanks for that detailed answer. Interesting you say the 'old policy of giving preference to up services in the morning peak and down services in the evening'. This implies a change. Why is that? I would've thought the sensible option would be to prioritise trains in the direction of the peak demand, to London in the morning, away from London in the evening. (Particularly in the evening, when getting people home really ought to be a priority.)

When things are up the creek who decides which trains get cancelled, terminated early or cut out certain stations? Sometimes these decisions make no sense to passengers.

Also, the thing when a lack of drivers means services are cancelled. I can understand (though not like) when this happens before a train starts its journey, but when it happens part-way through a service it's infuriating. Had a classic the other week when a Caterham train was cancelled at Purley through a lack of driver, even though they managed to find a driver to take the empty carriages back down the line towards Croydon! Why does that happen? Legal limits on driver hours, or jobsworth drivers backed up by stroppy unions?
Control make the decision on altered trains, cancellations etc.

Drivers get relieved during jobs, maybe their relief hasn't turned up / got stuck elsewhere. Drivers have to have breaks at a certain time, and certain length, if they didn't it would be breaking the law. Perhaps said driver had time to get the train to Selhurst depot, but not carry it on in service.

If a driver doesn't have his break, and has an incident he would get in big trouble.
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  #392  
Old 14-02-2014, 10:43 AM
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Many thanks for that detailed answer. Interesting you say the 'old policy of giving preference to up services in the morning peak and down services in the evening'. This implies a change. Why is that? I would've thought the sensible option would be to prioritise trains in the direction of the peak demand, to London in the morning, away from London in the evening. (Particularly in the evening, when getting people home really ought to be a priority.)

When things are up the creek who decides which trains get cancelled, terminated early or cut out certain stations? Sometimes these decisions make no sense to passengers.

Also, the thing when a lack of drivers means services are cancelled. I can understand (though not like) when this happens before a train starts its journey, but when it happens part-way through a service it's infuriating. Had a classic the other week when a Caterham train was cancelled at Purley through a lack of driver, even though they managed to find a driver to take the empty carriages back down the line towards Croydon! Why does that happen? Legal limits on driver hours, or jobsworth drivers backed up by stroppy unions?
If drivers were jobsworths the service would be far far worse.
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  #393  
Old 14-02-2014, 10:50 AM
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In the last 6 days I know of 1 driver who has gone above and beyond to make two trains run that wouldn't have if he wouldn't have shown a huge amount of flexibility, that meant over 1000 passengers got to work on time, saved his company thousands in fines and he his daughter had to miss brownies (his daughter loves brownies). Same driver also gave a elderly passenger a lift home to Eastbourne from Brighton after she missed her last train.
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  #394  
Old 14-02-2014, 10:59 AM
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Southern confirmed to me about three weeks ago that the new trains they have introduced have less seats but more standing room. So the cost of getting on the train still rises, but you have less chance of sitting down. Is that really a good message?
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  #395  
Old 14-02-2014, 11:22 AM
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40%??? Good luck getting that past the shareholders!
Kind of the point in all this.
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  #396  
Old 14-02-2014, 11:30 AM
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Kind of the point in all this.
Yep.
People buy shares in companies for financial returns, nowt else concerns them.
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  #397  
Old 14-02-2014, 11:33 AM
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Southern confirmed to me about three weeks ago that the new trains they have introduced have less seats but more standing room. So the cost of getting on the train still rises, but you have less chance of sitting down. Is that really a good message?
I was going to say something to this but it would be opening a whole new can of worms, and the usual suspects will just accuse me of not caring about the customers and my job blah blah blah. Not worth the hassle!
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  #398  
Old 14-02-2014, 11:41 AM
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Old 14-02-2014, 11:45 AM
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Old 14-02-2014, 11:48 AM
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