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  #201  
Old 10-07-2016, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
Corbyn has really disappointed me. A good and principaled man, he has no idea how to lead and bring people with him.
On what do you Base this opinion? Have you seen him speak or do you rely on the half truths suppositions and downright lies based on out of context sentences lifted from longer speeches? Corbyn didn't bow low enough, Corbyn is unelectable... Do any of the media actually say what his policies are? No because far more people than they admit would support them. So it's not Corbyn that's the problem, media barons don't share Corbyn's vision.

So because they know people will agree with Corbyn's plan, they go for the man instead. the mantra unelectable is drip fed day by day, 'hard left Corbyn ' Corbyn is an adolescent trot student agitator

Grassroots Labour members are Trot entryists

All bollocks with no substance.

So adrenalin john, if you could expand on how you came to arrive at your decision that Corbyn needs to go I'm sure I'll enjoy reading it
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Last edited by nickgusset; 10-07-2016 at 08:46 PM.
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  #202  
Old 10-07-2016, 08:44 PM
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for what it's worth I'd describe myself as probably to the right of Corbyn die hards but to the left of pretty much everybody else in the Labour party.
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  #203  
Old 10-07-2016, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by nickgusset View Post
On what do you Base this opinion? Have you seen him speak or do you rely on the half truths suppositions and downright lies based on out of context sentences lifted from longer speeches? Corbyn didn't bow low enough, Corbyn is unelectable... Do any of the media actually say what his policies are? No because far more people than they admit would support them. So it's not Corbyn that's the problem, media barons don't share Corbyn's vision.

So because they know people will agree with Corbyn's plan, they go for the man instead. And because the mantra unelectable is drip fed day by day, 'hard left Corbyn ' Corbyn is an adolescent trot student agitator

Grassroots Labour members are Trot entryists

All bollocks with no substance.

So adrenalin john, if you could expand on how you came to arrive at your decision that Corbyn needs to go I'm sure I'll enjoy reading it
calm down mate!
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  #204  
Old 10-07-2016, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
Problem with it is this, they put up a candidate, they get beaten as the mish mash of far left groups decide that Corbyn is still the man. 4 more years or until the election which many believe will see the loss of seats on a scale not seen for years. The PLP members have made it clear as they could the guy is incompetent surrounded by even more incompetents, let alone all of the other issues, and will not work with him.
All this will do is split the Labour party in a way far greater than the SDP ever did, and I for one will happily support them in doing it. The coup is not about to take place it took place the moment Corbyn was elected the SWP Momentum plus others used the voting system and succeeded after 30 years to achieve what they always wanted. If Corbyn wins this challenge then after a lifetime of support for Labour then no more from me.
Labour was founded through grassroots activism, what Labour leader would best listen to what grassroots activists want?
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  #205  
Old 10-07-2016, 08:51 PM
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calm down mate!
Am I wrong?
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  #206  
Old 10-07-2016, 08:57 PM
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Am I wrong?
Yes, he can't lead his MP's. That much is clear, therefore he's not up to the job.

They need to purge Momentum and McClusky. Its a repeat of the 80's with the Militant tendency, a party within a party controlling things.

I doubt the MP's are controlled by the media or Murdoch, they just want a chance of winning an election. They don't have it with Corbyn.
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  #207  
Old 10-07-2016, 09:02 PM
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  #208  
Old 10-07-2016, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by nickgusset View Post
Labour was founded through grassroots activism, what Labour leader would best listen to what grassroots activists want?
Depends what grassroots you listen to. Momentum? Denis Healy, right winger of course, once said "there are far too many people who want to luxuriate complacently in moral righteousness in opposition”.

Full circle.
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  #209  
Old 10-07-2016, 09:08 PM
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Not what I want , seems like another Tory

Corbyn may not have the backing of the Blair like MP's but he has the support of the majority of members who want change and a true alternative

It's interesting how some people seem to want to blame Corbyn for not resigning and splitting the party

My view is the MP's are splitting the party by ignoring the views of the membership . If Corbyn wins again I can see some of them going to a new sdp and I won't be sorry . Others may be deselected for the next election
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  #210  
Old 10-07-2016, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Stellavista View Post
I think what should be meant is that he has principles, not that his principles are unversally admired. He's generally taken a position and stuck to it. In modern politics, I think you need a bit more flexibility than he appears to show.
Rabidly ideological "principled" politicians, of any persuasion, are the absolute worst. Regardless of the situation, regardless of the evidence, they're convinced their ideology is the solution.

And if it's not working? We didn't do it enough is the solution. It may look massive deregulation has totally ****ed up an industry, but if deregulation is your bag then that can't be the problem, it must be you just didn't deregulate enough other industries for the glorious effects of deregulation to be seen.

Awful.

Give me pragmatic politicians any day of the week, and keep the ideologues in the think tanks and pressure groups.
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  #211  
Old 10-07-2016, 09:17 PM
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As I've said many times here, for McDonnell and Corbyn, and their yoghurt knitting mates, the ideological purity of the party is almost the only thing that matters. In truth, they have the same attitude to the proles that Marx had.
They care nothing for the real life struggles of the ordinary person, just 'the struggle'.
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  #212  
Old 10-07-2016, 09:26 PM
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Am I wrong?
As Miliband says, "Hull, yus!"
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  #213  
Old 10-07-2016, 09:28 PM
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My view is the MP's are splitting the party by ignoring the views of the membership . If Corbyn wins again I can see some of them going to a new sdp and I won't be sorry . Others may be deselected for the next election
The membership? You mean affiliated and 'registered' folk too?

Labour was created as a pretty broad church. Literally the Church in some cases. Why you wouldn't be sorry to see many mainstream representatives leave is odd. Perhaps the party could become that most vital of things, a campaign group with a nice small niche in parliament, able to moan about the relentless Tory tide of cuts.
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  #214  
Old 10-07-2016, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Stellavista View Post
As I've said many times here, for McDonnell and Corbyn, and their yoghurt knitting mates, the ideological purity of the party is almost the only thing that matters. In truth, they have the same attitude to the proles that Marx had.
They care nothing for the real life struggles of the ordinary person, just 'the struggle'.
Sad, but I fear true.
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  #215  
Old 10-07-2016, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ebyeeckeagle View Post
The membership? You mean affiliated and 'registered' folk too?

Labour was created as a pretty broad church. Literally the Church in some cases. Why you wouldn't be sorry to see many mainstream representatives leave is odd. Perhaps the party could become that most vital of things, a campaign group with a nice small niche in parliament, able to moan about the relentless Tory tide of cuts.
It depends what you want , the support of the centre could bring another Blair like Labour Party. I don't want that . I think the Corbyn route is a tougher one but one worth fighting for .
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  #216  
Old 10-07-2016, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Stellavista View Post
As I've said many times here, for McDonnell and Corbyn, and their yoghurt knitting mates, the ideological purity of the party is almost the only thing that matters. In truth, they have the same attitude to the proles that Marx had.
They care nothing for the real life struggles of the ordinary person, just 'the struggle'.
Is this a fact or mere conjecture on your part?
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  #217  
Old 10-07-2016, 09:58 PM
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..I think the Corbyn route is a tougher one but one worth fighting for .
Good luck with that comrade. It will certainly be a tougher one for the poorest in society while Jez keeps on the ideological highway.

That's sounds a bit wanky from me tbh, as we need all parts of the party to forge a good way forward, including the likes of Corbyn. Just so disappointed at the moment with how I see us going.
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  #218  
Old 10-07-2016, 10:10 PM
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Nah, Mat's worse. Many other people could cite their national culture as being the reason they are intolerant of homosexuality. You might for example disagree with the views of a Saudi but you might understand why he held them at least.

Mat has no such excuse for his rampant homophobia.
Saying mean things about gays is worse than torturing, jailing and killing them?
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  #219  
Old 10-07-2016, 10:12 PM
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It depends what you want , the support of the centre could bring another Blair like Labour Party. I don't want that . I think the Corbyn route is a tougher one but one worth fighting for .
Tory government after Tory government.

You know what might be easier? Winning power on a platform you're not entirely happy with, then influencing your own side to enact better policies you do agree with.
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  #220  
Old 10-07-2016, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ebyeeckeagle View Post
Good luck with that comrade. It will certainly be a tougher one for the poorest in society while Jez keeps on the ideological highway.

That's sounds a bit wanky from me tbh, as we need all parts of the party to forge a good way forward, including the likes of Corbyn. Just so disappointed at the moment with how I see us going.

Do you really think the poorest in society will gain much from a centre party
The likes of Eagle who couldn't manage to vote against the Tory welfare reforms

I think Labour can do better than that
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