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  #1001  
Old 13-07-2016, 06:41 PM
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May moving to the centre so Labour moves to the left to keep some clear red water between them?
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  #1002  
Old 13-07-2016, 06:42 PM
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Boris the new Foreign Secretary
I hope not. I hope that May called him to Number 10 to tell him that he's being offered a job in the Falkland Islands.
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  #1003  
Old 13-07-2016, 06:45 PM
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I hope not. I hope that May called him to Number 10 to tell him that he's being offered a job in the Falkland Islands.
As their whiff-whaff coach?
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  #1004  
Old 13-07-2016, 06:45 PM
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  #1005  
Old 13-07-2016, 06:45 PM
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******* hell Johnson is Foreign secretary according to the BBC though yet to be officially announced.
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  #1006  
Old 13-07-2016, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ExiledStirling View Post
That is like when Tim Sherwood saying he was not interested in the Palace job.

May: 'I do not have a job for you'

Osborne: 'I resign from the cabinet'
It appears I was right.
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  #1007  
Old 13-07-2016, 06:51 PM
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Boris the new Foreign Secretary
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  #1008  
Old 13-07-2016, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mat ov CPFC View Post
Except he has, to a point.

Labour has lost Scotland. It has seen its supposed safe Northern seats not only look leaky to UKIP but they actually turned against Labour when it came to the referendum. That is the crux here.

Traditional Labour voters tend to be difficult to get back once they break the mould and vote for somebody else. Labour is in a whole heap of trouble and I suspect that neither the Corbies or the Blairites are truly grasping the scale of it.

If Labour cannot hold on to the voters it has, then how the hell is it going to attract the new ones?

Losing Scotland to the SNP was catastrophic and the north turning against Labour over the Brexit issue is indicative that no one involved with Labour at its highest levels has much of a clue.
I'd actually agree with most of this, not that it makes anything said by the Pro Corbyn lobby any more valid. Labour would be in a whole heap of trouble right now regardless of who it's leader was, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. The loss of Scotland, and the solid bloc of seats it used to provide the Labour party is a major blow in terms of ever forming a majority government again, and it remains to be seen how things will play out in the northern "heartlands".

Both of those swings (if the North turns that way longer term) have been off the back of referendums and the unique dynamic they produce. My knowledge (and I'd have to say it's limited, Exiled Stirling might be able to add more value here) is that the Labour problems in Scotland came about as a result of a succession of useless Scottish leaders and the too close links with Tories in the indy referendum.

In the Northern Hearlands, yes there is an issue with how Labour conducted itself in Government, and I think there's a lot in the New Labour "medicine cupboard" that wasn't right. In particular, it seems as though the New Labour approach to the issues that became apparent in the Thatcher years was effectively to treat the symptoms and not the cause. Low wages were topped up with tax credits, but the underlying problem of decline in those areas was never really addressed.

Imho that created two issues. Firstly, income dependent on the government is (as we've seen) subject to changes in political approach and can therefore be withdrawn. Secondly, paying people to be under employed doesn't address a key issue that to some extent drives most of us if we're honest. And that is that it's not just about money, it's about wanting to be productive, to maximise our potential, and feel valued. The New Labour approach in some respects was to pay people off with tax credits and not address the underlying problem. That only heightened the sense of being ignored that many communities already had after the Thatcher years.

Now of course, given that the underlying problem is globalisation and changes in the global economy, there's a real question as to whether things could have been done any better in the real world. But nonetheless New Labour approached the problem in a certain way, and that certainly the fallout for the party had some of its roots in that period, especially as the issues (like immigration) that those communities saw (rightly or wrongly) as being part of their problem were simply dismissed.

For me, there is actually a real "what if" question in all this, and that is what had happened had John Smith not died. I think we'd have still have had a Labour Government in 1997 (albeit probably with a much smaller majority), and we might have seen a different approach to some of these issues that would have left the party (and more importantly the country) in a better place than it is now.

So I'm certainly not blind to the deep muck that Labour is in, with or without Corbyn. But Corbyn has no answers to those problems. Indeed, his whole world view is likely to simply make them worse. And that's before you start on the very valid point that you often raise that to win power, Labour first and foremost has to win back votes directly from the Tories. I can't for the life of me see how Corbyn is going to facilitate that.

Indeed, as we can see from this very thread, the exact opposite is happening, with life long Labour voters suggesting that they may "turn blue" (or at the very least stop voting Labour) as a result of Corbyn's "leadership". If May follows through with it, her apparent grab for the centre ground is only going to accelerate that process. And as you say, once people stop voting labour , getting them to start again is tricky. And as you also say, "If Labour cannot hold on to the voters it has, then how the hell is it going to attract the new ones".

Far from attracting voters from the Tories, he appears to be losing them in the other direction. Given current circumstances, that's almost beyond belief, and shows how vital it is for him to be removed if the party is to have any chance of surviving as an electoral force.

Last edited by Jason; 13-07-2016 at 08:47 PM.
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  #1009  
Old 13-07-2016, 06:57 PM
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I was totally joking about Boris being FS, but it is actually true

Satire is still alive and well. Thanks Theresa, cheered me up, nice one
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  #1010  
Old 13-07-2016, 06:58 PM
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Very good analysis, especially of the industrial north issue.
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  #1011  
Old 13-07-2016, 06:59 PM
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******* hell Johnson is Foreign secretary according to the BBC though yet to be officially announced.
Keeps him mostly out of the country though surely, so there is that...
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  #1012  
Old 13-07-2016, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
I was totally joking about Boris being FS, but it is actually true

Satire is still alive and well. Thanks Theresa, cheered me up, nice one
By all accounts he is a very engaging fella (irrespective of what voters might think).

Might do the job very well therefore.
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  #1013  
Old 13-07-2016, 07:03 PM
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I was totally joking about Boris being FS, but it is actually true

Satire is still alive and well. Thanks Theresa, cheered me up, nice one
I thought you must have a hotline to number 10 as you found out so quickly!
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  #1014  
Old 13-07-2016, 07:03 PM
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Boris as Foreign Secretary!!! Her first hour as PM was OK, but it's gone rock bottom now.
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  #1015  
Old 13-07-2016, 07:06 PM
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By all accounts he is a very engaging fella (irrespective of what voters might think).

Might do the job very well therefore.
Oh yes indeed he doesn't lack a bumbling old world English charm, but that said, what is left?

I suppose he would be good at apologising to the fellow foreign ministers of 27 member states for his mistake in his contribution to Brexit.
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  #1016  
Old 13-07-2016, 07:14 PM
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Oh yes indeed he doesn't lack a bumbling old world English charm, but that said, what is left?
.
He's really quite bright as well. Don't get me wrong, I'd never vote for him, but it's silly to write him off as an able politician simply because you don't like his politics.
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  #1017  
Old 13-07-2016, 07:15 PM
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By all accounts he is a very engaging fella (irrespective of what voters might think).

Might do the job very well therefore.
Is that all it takes?
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  #1018  
Old 13-07-2016, 07:15 PM
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Is that all it takes?
No. But it helps.
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  #1019  
Old 13-07-2016, 07:18 PM
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He's really quite bright as well. Don't get me wrong, I'd never vote for him, but it's silly to write him off as an able politician simply because you don't like his politics.
Well put it this way, I judge him by his latest activity, and that was his role in the Brexit campaign, and what happened at the end of it. Not looking good for his CV.

If he possesses genuine cleverness, we have yet to see it in action.
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  #1020  
Old 13-07-2016, 07:20 PM
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Well put it this way, I judge him by his latest activity, and that was his role in the Brexit campaign, and what happened at the end of ot. Not looking good for his CV.
.
Totally agree. He misread that totally (assuming he thought Brexit would lose).
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