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  #81  
Old 26-08-2012, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by New LP
So for the previous decade where were the other 17000 or so when you couldn't fill Withdean then?

As long as morons like you keep posting on this thread I will keep asking the question that none of you want to answer.
I'm going to try and answer this as honestly as possible.

There is a myth perpetuated on here, normally by Mr Git, that we lost our ground because we didn't care, although the mere fact we still have a club does prove otherwise there is a modicum of truth in it. If the Goldstone had been packed to the rafters every week and was making money Archer would have had more of a problem selling it, but he would have done this anyway.

Add into this mix a two year stint playing in Gillingham, a round trip of some 140 miles to watch a home game of football, and i use the term "football" very losely here created a general apathy towards the club, regular attendees found other pastimes, I for one took up golf. (very badly)

And then there was Withdean, what can be said about that god forsaken place other than we were back home. It is very easy to say "I'd go and watch my team if they played on a field" until you try it, god knows how many times I for one would look at the coming fixtures and decide against it. you had to buy tickets in advance, there is no POTG so how many of the "walk ups" were lost is unknown.

All that said, it could, and probably should have been better but how do you judge it? it's not as if there is another club to benchmark our attendances against during these times, our predicament was and still is unique. I guess if another club has to endure it we can gauge it and compare results. But i hope no other club has to. It is not fun.
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  #82  
Old 26-08-2012, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relegatedeagle
Where have the 10k+ plastics gone from Palace, since they left the Premiership?

Or is losing fans less worrying than gaining them?
Still there, most of them, just not going as often. We have a core fan base of around 15/16000. We've seen that over the last 30 years. At any one time, about half that number (or slighty over) are season ticket holders, the other half are made up of the people who come a number of times a season (whether that's 2 or 3, or 10 or 12).

When we do well, those without season tickets come more often. The 2 or 3 times a season people become 7 or 8, the 10 or 12 become 15 or 16, and so on. We also see some from that group becoming season ticket holders.

Of course, this has also happened to Brighton. Some of those who used to come casually to Brighton will now have season tickets, or be coming more often. It would be foolish to take your gate as it was for so many years, and your gate now, and claim that the difference is made up entirely of JCLs. However, it is equally foolish to claim that none of that huge surge are JCLs. They are. You know, we know it, I don't why you bother arguing about it. They're paying, and yes they may vanish again in future (quicker than those who converted their 2 o3 3 times a year to season tickets will), but they are paying for now which is good. But you can't expect us not to take the piss out of them, particularly those who like to give it the big un to us, when during Brighton's bad years they were nowhere to be seen.
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  #83  
Old 26-08-2012, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4
Still there, most of them, just not going as often. We have a core fan base of around 15/16000. We've seen that over the last 30 years. At any one time, about half that number (or slighty over) are season ticket holders, the other half are made up of the people who come a number of times a season (whether that's 2 or 3, or 10 or 12).

When we do well, those without season tickets come more often. The 2 or 3 times a season people become 7 or 8, the 10 or 12 become 15 or 16, and so on. We also see some from that group becoming season ticket holders.

Of course, this has also happened to Brighton. Some of those who used to come casually to Brighton will now have season tickets, or be coming more often. It would be foolish to take your gate as it was for so many years, and your gate now, and claim that the difference is made up entirely of JCLs. However, it is equally foolish to claim that none of that huge surge are JCLs. They are. You know, we know it, I don't why you bother arguing about it. They're paying, and yes they may vanish again in future (quicker than those who converted their 2 o3 3 times a year to season tickets will), but they are paying for now which is good. But you can't expect us not to take the piss out of them, particularly those who like to give it the big un to us, when during Brighton's bad years they were nowhere to be seen.
The same 30 years that you haven't been out of the top two division. I think there might be a connection there.
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  #84  
Old 26-08-2012, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by andy1980
The same 30 years that you haven't been out of the top two division. I think there might be a connection there.
Well yes, the connection is that we haven't been as shit as you. I'm not sure what further points you could extrapolate though. Looking at other clubs it's clear that relegation affects different clubs in different ways, and it's equally clear that relegation from the Championship to League 1 is far less significant than relegation from the Premiership to the Championship. Would our attendance go down if we were relegated? Possibly, possibly not. If it did I doubt it would go down by much, and if we did well I'd expect it to go up from where it is at present. It's all fantasy though, and a bit pointless to speculate.

The point is you know as well as I do that you have a load of JCLs, and it makes no sense to try and pretend otherwise.
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  #85  
Old 26-08-2012, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy1980
The same 30 years that you haven't been out of the top two division. I think there might be a connection there.
And I think it's been about 35 years since we were in division 3, though at that time we had far bigger crowds than we do now. More than Selhurst can even hold now! Not sure comparisons that far back are worth much, any more than the 80s when every club saw crowds drop with the hooliganism that was rife.
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  #86  
Old 26-08-2012, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4
And I think it's been about 35 years since we were in division 3, though at that time we had far bigger crowds than we do now. More than Selhurst can even hold now! Not sure comparisons that far back are worth much, any more than the 80s when every club saw crowds drop with the hooliganism that was rife.
Exactly, you can accept the step down from prem to championship looses you about 10,000 attendace over 5 years but you refuse to accept that the step down from Championship to league 1 will loose you a significant amount over a significant period of time, You talk about your 15,000 to 16000 attendance without accepting it connection to championship football.
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  #87  
Old 26-08-2012, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy1980
Their owners told them to support another club as they didn't like what they saw, so they did.
Most of your new audience
already had another club.
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Old 26-08-2012, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fur cough
I'm going to try and answer this as honestly as possible.

There is a FACT perpetuated on here, normally by Mr Git, that we lost our ground because we didn't care, although the mere fact we still have a club does prove otherwise there is a modicum of truth in it. If the Goldstone had been packed to the rafters every week and was making money Archer would have had more of a problem selling it, but he would have done this anyway.

Add into this mix a two year stint playing in Gillingham, a round trip of some 140 miles to watch a home game of football, and i use the term "football" very losely here created a general apathy towards the club, regular attendees found other pastimes, I for one took up golf. (very badly)

And then there was Withdean, what can be said about that god forsaken place other than we were back home. It is very easy to say "I'd go and watch my team if they played on a field" until you try it, god knows how many times I for one would look at the coming fixtures and decide against it. you had to buy tickets in advance, there is no POTG so how many of the "walk ups" were lost is unknown.

All that said, it could, and probably should have been better but how do you judge it? it's not as if there is another club to benchmark our attendances against during these times, our predicament was and still is unique. I guess if another club has to endure it we can gauge it and compare results. But i hope no other club has to. It is not fun.
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  #89  
Old 26-08-2012, 12:35 PM
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Palace would never have to wait 5 years to get promoted back to the Championship if we were to get relegated and you know it.

Let us see where we are at Xmas and see if Brighton are so smug about us being relegated.
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  #90  
Old 26-08-2012, 12:47 PM
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Preston and Sheffield Utd are both in their second seasons in league one. Although still extremely early in the season, they are currently both roughly 10% down on what their average attendance was in their relegation season in the Championship.
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  #91  
Old 26-08-2012, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by andy1980
Preston and Sheffield Utd are both in their second seasons in league one. Although still extremely early in the season, they are currently both roughly 10% down on what their average attendance was in their relegation season in the Championship.
And?
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Old 26-08-2012, 12:58 PM
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And?
What makes you so special, that it wont happen to you if you got relegated?
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  #93  
Old 26-08-2012, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by andy1980
What makes you so special, that it wont happen to you if you got relegated?
It might.Why are you so bothered though?
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  #94  
Old 26-08-2012, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old git
It might.Why are you so bothered though?
I'm trying to make the point that the stable 15-16,000 fans base over the last 30 years is connected to the fact you haven't been lower than the Championship for the last 30 years.
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  #95  
Old 26-08-2012, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by andy1980
Exactly, you can accept the step down from prem to championship looses you about 10,000 attendace over 5 years but you refuse to accept that the step down from Championship to league 1 will loose you a significant amount over a significant period of time, You talk about your 15,000 to 16000 attendance without accepting it connection to championship football.
I don't think it lost us fans at all, since I never thought the attendance was fixed. Lots of things give a boost (cup runs, doing well, signing a well know player, promotion, new stadium) but that's what it tends to be - a boost. Viewing attendances returning to normal after such a boost as a loss is bizarre.

As for our attendance, I'm quite right to talk about it being 15/16000, since that's what we know it is. Not what it could be if we were in the Prem for 15 straight years, not what it might be if we were playing conference football, just want it is. We have a fairly stable fanbase that has reacted pretty normally to circumstances and which we can assume will continue to do so. Does that mean we would lose fans if relegated? Maybe. Some clubs who come down from the Championship seem to lose fans, others not so much. Certainly it's no where near as significant as coming down from the Premiership (for one thing, I take far fewer neutrals to Championship matches).

Brighton's whole argument, to distract from the fact (and it is a fact) that you have recently swelled your ranks with substantial numbers of JCLs who were nowhere to be seen when the club needed them (though as many of them support another club first and foremost I suppose it's understandable), is that if Palace had been as remorselessly shit as Brighton then our fans would have shown themselves to be equally fickle, deserting the club in droves and preferring to support a Premiership club from the comfort of our armchairs. But the arguments pointless. We weren't as shit as you, and we didn't desert our club. There's nothing to say that we would of just because you did, but the key point, the really important one, is that we didn't. Cry all you like over your fantasy scenarios, but you look as foolish as we would if we told Real Madrid that we'd be as successful as them if only x, y and z happened. It hasn't. We aren't.

You need to embrase your past, and accept the JCLs. They may desert the club in droves if times become hard again but for the time-being they are paying customers, and better for your club than empty seats. But you also have to accept that we're going to take the piss, because they are an easy target for mockery. They weren't there when your club needed them, they moan about not knowing your songs, they still support another club first and foremost. I mean come on, if it was the other way round you'd be pissing yourselves.
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Old 26-08-2012, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heb 7:4
I don't think it lost us fans at all, since I never thought the attendance was fixed. Lots of things give a boost (cup runs, doing well, signing a well know player, promotion, new stadium) but that's what it tends to be - a boost. Viewing attendances returning to normal after such a boost as a loss is bizarre.

As for our attendance, I'm quite right to talk about it being 15/16000, since that's what we know it is. Not what it could be if we were in the Prem for 15 straight years, not what it might be if we were playing conference football, just want it is. We have a fairly stable fanbase that has reacted pretty normally to circumstances and which we can assume will continue to do so. Does that mean we would lose fans if relegated? Maybe. Some clubs who come down from the Championship seem to lose fans, others not so much. Certainly it's no where near as significant as coming down from the Premiership (for one thing, I take far fewer neutrals to Championship matches).

Brighton's whole argument, to distract from the fact (and it is a fact) that you have recently swelled your ranks with substantial numbers of JCLs who were nowhere to be seen when the club needed them (though as many of them support another club first and foremost I suppose it's understandable), is that if Palace had been as remorselessly shit as Brighton then our fans would have shown themselves to be equally fickle, deserting the club in droves and preferring to support a Premiership club from the comfort of our armchairs. But the arguments pointless. We weren't as shit as you, and we didn't desert our club. There's nothing to say that we would of just because you did, but the key point, the really important one, is that we didn't. Cry all you like over your fantasy scenarios, but you look as foolish as we would if we told Real Madrid that we'd be as successful as them if only x, y and z happened. It hasn't. We aren't.

You need to embrase your past, and accept the JCLs. They may desert the club in droves if times become hard again but for the time-being they are paying customers, and better for your club than empty seats. But you also have to accept that we're going to take the piss, because they are an easy target for mockery. They weren't there when your club needed them, they moan about not knowing your songs, they still support another club first and foremost. I mean come on, if it was the other way round you'd be pissing yourselves.
I accept the new fans with open arms. I don't accept they are plastics because when I was a kid a plastic was someone who said they supported a team and never went to see them play, and just seemed to buy a kit and watch them on tv occasionally. But I do accept a percentage of them are new and i am proud of it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with any of them supporting another club .As long as they come over and support Brighton. You know what, they do. everyone around me feels the pain when we concede and everyone feels the joy when we score (I have seen it with my own eyes). They also have opinions about our players and the way we play (good or bad). That is being a fan. They might not be die-hards and when times are tough they might not think its worth spending so much money on what they consider rubbish, but they are here now and i'm proud.
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Old 26-08-2012, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy1980
I accept the new fans with open arms. I don't accept they are plastics because when I was a kid a plastic was someone who said they supported a team and never went to see them play, and just seemed to buy a kit and watch them on tv occasionally. But I do accept a percentage of them are new and i am proud of it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with any of them supporting another club .As long as they come over and support Brighton. You know what, they do. everyone around me feels the pain when we concede and everyone feels the joy when we score (I have seen it with my own eyes). They also have opinions about our players and the way we play (good or bad). That is being a fan. They might not be die-hards and when times are tough they might not think its worth spending so much money on what they consider rubbish, but they are here now and i'm proud.
Take no notice Andy, Herb and many others STH's have to really shout to the bloke sitting next to him at Selhurst, there are that many empty seats between them. Much better than having a load of plastics in the place.
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Old 26-08-2012, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by andy1980
I accept the new fans with open arms. I don't accept they are plastics because when I was a kid a plastic was someone who said they supported a team and never went to see them play, and just seemed to buy a kit and watch them on tv occasionally. But I do accept a percentage of them are new and i am proud of it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with any of them supporting another club .As long as they come over and support Brighton. You know what, they do. everyone around me feels the pain when we concede and everyone feels the joy when we score (I have seen it with my own eyes). They also have opinions about our players and the way we play (good or bad). That is being a fan. They might not be die-hards and when times are tough they might not think its worth spending so much money on what they consider rubbish, but they are here now and i'm proud.
I'm glad you agree you have a load of JCLs. Now you can get on welcoming them, and we can get on with mocking them, and we can stop pretending we don't both know full well there are loads of them.
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Old 26-08-2012, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by relegatedeagle
Take no notice Andy, Herb and many others STH's have to really shout to the bloke sitting next to him at Selhurst, there are that many empty seats between them. Much better than having a load of plastics in the place.

I'm sure that's what I heard cpfc2010 say as well.
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Old 26-08-2012, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heb 7:4
I'm glad you agree you have a load of JCLs. Now you can get on welcoming them, and we can get on with mocking them, and we can stop pretending we don't both know full well there are loads of them.
No we do have a lot of JLC's and in fact, many even may have come from you (Palace). But keep them coming long enough, paying their money and guess what, soon they will be hooked and we have a larger dedicated fan base. That's how these things grow or as in your club’s case diminish.
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