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  #87921  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
Thats why I said 'Trade'
And the EU will give us as good as terms as Norway but without the same level of payment or acceptance of the 4 freedoms because?
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  #87922  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by rhino_mik View Post
These are not factual benefits of leaving the EU. Did you understand the question?
Do you?

Do you understand that many of UK's allies are not in the EU? many are not even in Europe.

Norway, Canada, Iceland, Switzerland (spit), Turkey, Australia, New Zealand, etc, etc, etc.

Judging by the hysteria some people seem to think we are cutting ourselves off from Planet Earth.

After a likely short-term period of instability and re-adjustment, things won't be all that different in 10 to 20 years time.

I love Europe. I love visiting new countries in Europe. But that's the point, I like the little differences. I don't want to be one corporate, homogenous entity. Some immigration is to be celebrated, but I don't think unrestricted free movement benefits either party. Is Bulgaria over-joyed to see its brightest and best leaving to pick fruit in East Anglia? The only people who benefit are the super rich who are able to force down wages.
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  #87923  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bigGcpfc View Post
Churchill was all in favour of a united Europe-as long as it didn't include Britain.

Andrew Roberts
So because Roberts comes up with a single sentence that contradicts what Churchill said publicly you prefer to believe him rather than Churchill??!!

Does the ‘G’ stand for Gullible?
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  #87924  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
. Is Bulgaria over-joyed to see its brightest and best leaving to pick fruit in East Anglia?.
It’s so heartwarming how many Brexiters care about the welfare of the downtrodden of Eastern Europe.

So much so that they want to deny them access to our country.
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  #87925  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
Do you?

Do you understand that many of UK's allies are not in the EU? many are not even in Europe.
Turkey.
I thought Turkey joining the EU was a reason for leaving?
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  #87926  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
And the EU will give us as good as terms as Norway but without the same level of payment or acceptance of the 4 freedoms because?
Because they export more to us then we do to them.

Worst case scenario though, I am confident we will still be on better terms then Morocco, Mexico or Malaysia. So let's not over-react.
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  #87927  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
I thought Turkey joining the EU was a reason for leaving?
I notice you love setting an exam question.

Here's one for you. Please show the exact post and quote where I said that?
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  #87928  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
Because they export more to us then we do to them.

Worst case scenario though, I am confident we will still be on better terms then Morocco, Mexico or Malaysia. So let's not over-react.
Ah, they need us more than we need them. Gotcha.
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  #87929  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
I notice you love setting an exam question.

Here's one for you. Please show the exact post and quote where I said that?
You said Turkey were one of our allies and this would be great. I said I thought the treat of Turkey join the EU was used as a reason to leave (it was, by the way, by Leave.eu)
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  #87930  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
It’s so heartwarming how many Brexiters care about the welfare of the downtrodden of Eastern Europe.

So much so that they want to deny them access to our country.
I don't want to deny them access to our country, where did I say that?

I would like to be able to manage the situation with visas. Incidentally so would most of Eastern Europe, but EU funding keeps them pacified (for now).

So heart-warming that you are still trotting out such tired and simplistic lines.
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  #87931  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
Do you?

Do you understand that many of UK's allies are not in the EU? many are not even in Europe.

Norway, Canada, Iceland, Switzerland (spit), Turkey, Australia, New Zealand, etc, etc, etc.

Judging by the hysteria some people seem to think we are cutting ourselves off from Planet Earth.

After a likely short-term period of instability and re-adjustment, things won't be all that different in 10 to 20 years time.

I love Europe. I love visiting new countries in Europe. But that's the point, I like the little differences. I don't want to be one corporate, homogenous entity. Some immigration is to be celebrated, but I don't think unrestricted free movement benefits either party. Is Bulgaria over-joyed to see its brightest and best leaving to pick fruit in East Anglia? The only people who benefit are the super rich who are able to force down wages.
The only benefit you have mentioned there is immigration
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  #87932  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
I don't want to deny them access to our country, where did I say that?
.
That’s good.

Your love for Bulgaria shines through every post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
The only benefit you have mentioned there is immigration
All except for Bulgarians. He likes them a lot apparently.
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  #87933  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
The only people who benefit are the super rich who are able to force down wages.
Is there empirical evidence to support this?
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  #87934  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
You said Turkey were one of our allies and this would be great. I said I thought the treat of Turkey join the EU was used as a reason to leave (it was, by the way, by Leave.eu)
Turkey immentently joining the EU was given as a reason to fear mass immigration via freedom of movement. 80 million of them flooding our country was bandied about

Fools believed that them joining was on the cards and that they would flood our country in their millions. An almost forgotten lie of the early days of brexit campaigning.
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  #87935  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
Do you?

Do you understand that many of UK's allies are not in the EU? many are not even in Europe.

Norway, Canada, Iceland, Switzerland (spit), Turkey, Australia, New Zealand, etc, etc, etc.

Judging by the hysteria some people seem to think we are cutting ourselves off from Planet Earth.

After a likely short-term period of instability and re-adjustment, things won't be all that different in 10 to 20 years time.

I love Europe. I love visiting new countries in Europe. But that's the point, I like the little differences. I don't want to be one corporate, homogenous entity. Some immigration is to be celebrated, but I don't think unrestricted free movement benefits either party. Is Bulgaria over-joyed to see its brightest and best leaving to pick fruit in East Anglia? The only people who benefit are the super rich who are able to force down wages.
You may as well have just said "the sun will still rise in the morning", but that would not have been a factual benefit of brexit either.

You obviously didn't understand the question and I strongly suspect you didn't know what you were voting for when you voted leave.
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  #87936  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
The only benefit you have mentioned there is immigration
But he has not said how it will be a benefit that is any different to how we could manage it today, but our government has chosen not to.
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  #87937  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
Is there empirical evidence to support this?
I'll give you a hand. The most recent study suggests a reduction in average wages of 0.2% in the unskilled and semi-skilled service sector. The biggest impact is on the pay of other immigrants.
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  #87938  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rhino_mik View Post
But he has not said how it will be a benefit that is any different to how we could manage it today, but our government has chosen not to.
I was going to put benefit in quotes
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  #87939  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:38 PM
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I'll give you a hand. The most recent study suggests a reduction in average wages of 0.2% in the unskilled and semi-skilled service sector. The biggest impact is on the pay of other immigrants.
And the BoE view on the impact on wages of Brexit was....
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  #87940  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:42 PM
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You said Turkey were one of our allies and this would be great. I said I thought the treat of Turkey join the EU was used as a reason to leave (it was, by the way, by Leave.eu)
I don't really blame leave.eu for using that argument.

I also love Turkey, Turkish culture and the Turkish people - some of the friendliest on earth in my experience.

I daresay you will see that as a contradiction.

But in my view, we treat the issue of immigration in such simplistic terms that it colours almost every discussion. This used to be a vice of the right but increasingly the centre-left are some of the very worst culprits, throwing insults like confetti. You won't have to skip back far in this thread for examples.

Put it this way, I despise racism. But I am also an environmentalist and a realist. There is a thread on the BBS where people are distraught about proposals for high-rise blocks in Purley. Right across the country it is now commonplace to allow housing developments in National Parks and Areas of Outstanding National Beauty. The over-heated south-east is one of the most over-crowded regions on Earth. When is too much? The answer in my view is once a region or country breaches its own ecological carrying capacity - which has already happened. Meanwhile, other regions around the world are losing their young people and cannot sustain themselves. I can't see how anyone (other than the big businesses who profit from it) can see this as an ideal long-term situation for ordinary people or the planet. So yes, I think exerting greater control over our borders is essential.

In simplistic terms, I get on great with a mate down the pub, they may even crash round mine sometimes. But that doesn't mean I want them walking out on their family and sleeping on my sofa for the next 6 months.
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