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  #20061  
Old 17-02-2017, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomo View Post
No.

I merely pointed out, that a lot of members didn't vote against the proposals. I don't expect everyone in an organisation to have the same opinion, but from the stats given, its a pretty even split.

I don't see how that can even be debated.

I'm pissed off that there is a chance that we may end up back to square one but I'm not debating that the vote shouldn't stand and never have.
You clearly stated

" I wouldn't say it's a majority" which is factually incorrect. A majority of those that voted, which lets be honest is currently how votes are decided, decided to reject the deal struck. No one is debating weather its an even split or not (apart from your good self seemingly) you then felt then need to post some crap like

"But as always, in a bid to seem liberal and radical you just go off on your own accord."

at least be honest with yourself.
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Last edited by weltklasse; 17-02-2017 at 10:21 AM.
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  #20062  
Old 17-02-2017, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by macstar View Post
they are gonna be gone in a month, we are getting some 377s back from Thameslink early... in fact some are already back.
And I have noticed GatEx have been using the White 387/1s too. Surely they will re livery them? They look bloody stupid attached to the red ones.
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  #20063  
Old 17-02-2017, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Latvian Eagle View Post
And I have noticed GatEx have been using the White 387/1s too. Surely they will re livery them? They look bloody stupid attached to the red ones.
on loan due to 1 of the red ones needing attention at derby.

PS Iam not a train spotter lol.

A few Purple Thameslink 377s have gone to SE for a while and have been given blue doors and that yellow 1st class box around the windows...... should look slightly different to their dark blue 375s.....slightly!
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  #20064  
Old 17-02-2017, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Popester View Post
Why didn't the unions consult with passengers before voting for industrial action then?
Because the passengers don't end up in court when things go wrong, and drivers do?
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  #20065  
Old 17-02-2017, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Del Fenner View Post
Because the passengers don't end up in court when things go wrong, and drivers do?
Fair point. But Southern also face court action if they implement unsafe/discriminatory practices too.
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  #20066  
Old 17-02-2017, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Popester View Post
Fair point. But Southern also face court action if they implement unsafe/discriminatory practices too.

How many managers/CEO's been in court?

I can only think of 1, who claimed plausible deniability and got off after Paddington.
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  #20067  
Old 17-02-2017, 10:50 AM
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  #20068  
Old 17-02-2017, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weltklasse View Post
You clearly stated

" I wouldn't say it's a majority" which is factually incorrect. A majority of those that voted, which lets be honest is currently how votes are decided, decided to reject the deal struck. No one is debating weather its an even split or not (apart from your good self seemingly) you then felt then need to post some crap like

"But as always, in a bid to seem liberal and radical you just go off on your own accord."

at least be honest with yourself.

Youíre accusing me of saying that the vote shouldnít count, which I never have said.

My posts were discussing how loyal ASLEF members are. I said, I donít think they are that loyal when the vote was pretty close, despite the recommendations from ASLEF, and people going against them.

I also said that out of everyone available to vote, 24% didnít, and the actual vote wasnít a huge split, so Southern will probably hope that a small concession on their part will make the difference to it being accepted next time round. I probably didnít word it very well in hindsight, but my posts have never been that we should ignore the vote.

I also said, following that, you the 24% who didnít split donít have the right to complain.

May be rather than trying to be honest with yourself, you should actually try and understand what people are saying.
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  #20069  
Old 17-02-2017, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroom View Post
How many managers/CEO's been in court?

I can only think of 1, who claimed plausible deniability and got off after Paddington.
The position has changed since then, and managers/CEOs are now at far greater risk of prosecution.

The Corporate Manslaughter Act has been law for less than 10 years. Since its implementation, there have been more than a dozen prosecutions against directors but to my knowledge none relate to the rail industry. My recollection is that one of the reasons the Act was introduced was because of the Paddington disaster and the inability to prosecute senior management in the criminal court.
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  #20070  
Old 17-02-2017, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Popester View Post
The position has changed since then, and managers/CEOs are now at far greater risk of prosecution.



The Corporate Manslaughter Act has been law for less than 10 years. Since its implementation, there have been more than a dozen prosecutions against directors but to my knowledge none relate to the rail industry. My recollection is that one of the reasons the Act was introduced was because of the Paddington disaster and the inability to prosecute senior management in the criminal court.

Which tells you everything you need to know. Management will make sure they ain't the ones in the dock.
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  #20071  
Old 17-02-2017, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Popester View Post
Fair point. But Southern also face court action if they implement unsafe/discriminatory practices too.
Actual events show multiple drivers facing court cases and zero against company management. This year, last year, the year before.
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  #20072  
Old 17-02-2017, 11:37 AM
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Actual events show multiple drivers facing court cases and zero against company management. This year, last year, the year before.
What for? Incidents which management knew about and could have prevented?
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  #20073  
Old 17-02-2017, 11:38 AM
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Which tells you everything you need to know. Management will make sure they ain't the ones in the dock.
Genuinely don't understand how you've arrived at this conclusion based on my post.
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  #20074  
Old 17-02-2017, 11:41 AM
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You said the reason for the act was because of the inability to hold management responsible?
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  #20075  
Old 17-02-2017, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mushroom View Post
You said the reason for the act was because of the inability to hold management responsible?
The previous common law situation made it difficult to hold management responsible. The 2007 Act makes it easier to hold them responsible. That is why it was introduced.

No idea how accurate it is, but according to this To view the link you have to Register or Loginindividual directors have been fined up to £900k since the Act was introduced. The risk of fines of that size ought to make directors of TOCs extremely concerned about safety.
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  #20076  
Old 17-02-2017, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Tomo View Post
You’re accusing me of saying that the vote shouldn’t count, which I never have said.

My posts were discussing how loyal ASLEF members are. I said, I don’t think they are that loyal when the vote was pretty close, despite the recommendations from ASLEF, and people going against them.

I also said that out of everyone available to vote, 24% didn’t, and the actual vote wasn’t a huge split, so Southern will probably hope that a small concession on their part will make the difference to it being accepted next time round. I probably didn’t word it very well in hindsight, but my posts have never been that we should ignore the vote.

I also said, following that, you the 24% who didn’t split don’t have the right to complain.

May be rather than trying to be honest with yourself, you should actually try and understand what people are saying.
I am not accusing you of anything I have been pretty clear about what you said. I quoted your post directly! It was pretty clear. in your mind it wasn't a majority. Its a small but very important point that you now seem happy to gloss over. we can agree that southern should be in a position to offer a small concession. I have never disputed that in fact a previous post of mine made this clear. Therefore my posts have been perfectly honest thank you very much.
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Last edited by weltklasse; 17-02-2017 at 12:00 PM.
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  #20077  
Old 17-02-2017, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Popester View Post
The previous common law situation made it difficult to hold management responsible. The 2007 Act makes it easier to hold them responsible. That is why it was introduced.



No idea how accurate it is, but according to this To view the link you have to Register or Loginindividual directors have been fined up to £900k since the Act was introduced. The risk of fines of that size ought to make directors of TOCs extremely concerned about safety.

That's less than half a years bonus. I doubt that'll put the willies up then.
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  #20078  
Old 17-02-2017, 12:49 PM
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remember the long term goal is better PASSENGER safety.
I genuinely don't believe you. Why not go on strike over any number of issues that may make it slightly safer just like this one?
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  #20079  
Old 17-02-2017, 01:01 PM
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I genuinely don't believe you. Why not go on strike over any number of issues that may make it slightly safer just like this one?

What do you think strike is about?
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  #20080  
Old 17-02-2017, 01:03 PM
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I genuinely don't believe you. Why not go on strike over any number of issues that may make it slightly safer just like this one?
Why would drivers go on strike over any issue that makes our rail travel slightly safer?
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