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  #21961  
Old 20-02-2017, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by palacea View Post
If you want to believe this isn't one of the most tolerant countries in the world, that's your issue. Posting Guardian articles on this subject, doesn't help your cause either.
Its not a question of belief its a question of observing history...if you want to close your eyes and stick fingers in your ears that's your problem...
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  #21962  
Old 20-02-2017, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
No it doesn't and yes we can: re-read the Treaties e.g. Article 3.2 on the primary objectives - The Union shall offer its citizens an area of freedom, security and justice without internal frontiers, in which the free movement of persons is ensured in conjunction with appropriate measures with respect to external border controls, asylum, immigration and the prevention and combating of crime.

Or 45.3 of the "Lisbon" Treaty which says that FoM is subject to "limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health". It also states that migrants "stay in a Member State for the purpose of employment in accordance with the provisions governing the employment of nationals of that State laid down by law, regulation or administrative action".

See also Regulation (EU) No 492/2011 on freedom of movement for workers.
Leavers read EU articles and overcome their cognative dissonance - that's a tall order Mik
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  #21963  
Old 20-02-2017, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
You can check out the leave campaign's website. It specifically stated that a leave vote will NOT mean leaving the single market. This, like the £350 million was a lie, and was stated no doubt for fear of losing too many of the more moderate element and those on the fence that might be persuaded to vote remain.
I don't think it did... In fact it clearly said on numerous occasions it wanted to negotiate a trade deal to access the market rather than remain part of it. But hey feel free to keep peddling the lies

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What about the so-called ‘Single Market’? The ‘Single Market’ is almost universally misunderstood and is nowhere defined in the EU Treaties. It was created in the 1980s by Jacques Delors in order to impose qualified majority voting in a vast range of areas beyond international trade such as the free movement of people, how we build schools or aircraft carriers, and thousands of things like the energy requirements of hoovers and the maximum size of containers in which two people sell olive oil to each other in the Shetland Islands (five litres). The Foreign Office and CBI like to claim that the Single Market was about ‘free trade’ but this is historical nonsense. Delors’ goal was explicitly political - as he said, 'we’re not here just to make a Single Market, that doesn’t interest me, but to make a political union.'

The Single Market causes big problems. For example, the Clinical Trials Directive has hampered the testing of vital cancer drugs for years causing unnecessary deaths. Single Market rules add complexity, time, and billions to government procurement programmes. Economists have tried and failed for twenty years to identify clear general gains from the Single Market. Even the Commission’s own, obviously optimistic, figures show that the supposed gains for the UK are smaller than reasonable estimates of the regulatory costs. Most businesses have said for over a decade that the Single Market does more harm than good but this debate has been distorted by a small number of large multinationals that lobby Brussels to use regulations to crush entrepreneurial competition. Big businesses are often the enemy of the public interest.

These problems will grow. The next EU Treaty is intended to harmonise another vast range of things including areas such as company law and ‘property rights’. Harmonising regulations is often good for countries like Greece but is often disastrous for Britain which wins more of the world’s investment in Europe than any other European country precisely because much of our legal system is not yet harmonised with Europe.

The EU’s supporters say ‘we must have access to the Single Market’. Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave. British businesses that want to sell to the EU will obey EU rules just as American, Swiss, or Chinese businesses do. Only about one in twenty British businesses export to the EU but every business is subject to every EU law. There is no need for Britain to impose all EU rules on all UK businesses as we do now, any more than Australia or Canada or India imposes all EU rules on their businesses. British businesses that wish to follow Single Market rules should be able to without creating obligations on everybody else to follow them. The vast majority of British businesses that do not sell to the EU will benefit from the much greater flexibility we will have.

The idea that our trade will suffer because we stop imposing terrible rules such as the Clinical Trial Directive is silly. The idea that ‘access to the Single Market’ is a binary condition and one must accept all Single Market rules is already nonsense - the Schengen system is ‘Single Market’ and we are not part of that. After we vote to leave, we will expand the number of damaging Single Market rules that we no longer impose and we will behave like the vast majority of countries around the world, trading with the EU but, crucially, without accepting the supremacy of EU law.
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  #21964  
Old 20-02-2017, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
No it doesn't and yes we can: re-read the Treaties e.g. Article 3.2 on the primary objectives - The Union shall offer its citizens an area of freedom, security and justice without internal frontiers, in which the free movement of persons is ensured in conjunction with appropriate measures with respect to external border controls, asylum, immigration and the prevention and combating of crime.

Or 45.3 of the "Lisbon" Treaty which says that FoM is subject to "limitations justified on grounds of public policy, public security or public health". It also states that migrants "stay in a Member State for the purpose of employment in accordance with the provisions governing the employment of nationals of that State laid down by law, regulation or administrative action".

See also Regulation (EU) No 492/2011 on freedom of movement for workers.
So delboy was 99% right then.
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  #21965  
Old 20-02-2017, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by cdm61 View Post
Its not a question of belief its a question of observing history...if you want to close your eyes and stick fingers in your ears that's your problem...
Go on then what history in particular do you refer...
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  #21966  
Old 20-02-2017, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by cdm61 View Post
Its not a question of belief its a question of observing history...if you want to close your eyes and stick fingers in your ears that's your problem...
its what palacea does.
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  #21967  
Old 20-02-2017, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
So delboy was 99% right then.
the real truism is that delboy is always 99% incorrect
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  #21968  
Old 20-02-2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by eaglejez View Post
TBF I don't think for damage caused to the World BJ/Gove are in the same league !
Yet
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  #21969  
Old 20-02-2017, 12:42 PM
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Eddie, do you believe that the Clinical Trials Directive is a "terrible rule"?
It's being replaced next year I think - updated, really.
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  #21970  
Old 20-02-2017, 01:08 PM
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the real truism is that delboy is always 99% incorrect
High praise indeed!
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  #21971  
Old 20-02-2017, 01:20 PM
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Mik makes a good point re FOM.... wonder why Cameron didn't apply those brakes if it was always in his gift? Instead he sought a "new deal" for something which already existed???

Who would think such a thing possible?
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  #21972  
Old 20-02-2017, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by palacea View Post
Go on then what history in particular do you refer...
If you don't know then I'm not going to waste my time - but if you want you can start with the Peasents Revolt 1381 and move on from there To view the link you have to Register or Login

This is a Brexit thread in any case - I've already given you the information about the dramatic rise in hate crime against people during and post the vote, which included the murder of an MP..and the Metropolitan Police warnings of much more to come during the exit process
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  #21973  
Old 20-02-2017, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cdm61 View Post
If you don't know then I'm not going to waste my time - but if you want you can start with the Peasents Revolt 1381 and move on from there To view the link you have to Register or Login

This is a Brexit thread in any case - I've already given you the information about the dramatic rise in hate crime against people during and post the vote, which included the murder of an MP..and the Metropolitan Police warnings of much more to come during the exit process
Peasant Revolt 1381
TBF, I did actually think you was going to bring up the Nazis.

Yes I've seen your comments, and I still stand that this country is tolerant country, many around the world would agree.
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  #21974  
Old 20-02-2017, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by palacea View Post
Peasant Revolt 1381
TBF, I did actually think you was going to bring up the Nazis.

Yes I've seen your comments, and I still stand that this country is tolerant country, many around the world would agree.
things that would be the same in the U.K. had Germany won WWII

#1 - The Daily Mail
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  #21975  
Old 20-02-2017, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
things that would be the same in the U.K. had Germany won WWII

#1 - The Daily Mail
What things are these?

Alternative History?

Due you have the facts on this Alternative History?

Or is this a little guess at best.
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  #21976  
Old 20-02-2017, 02:08 PM
cdm61 cdm61 is offline
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Originally Posted by palacea View Post
Peasant Revolt 1381
TBF, I did actually think you was going to bring up the Nazis.

Yes I've seen your comments, and I still stand that this country is tolerant country, many around the world would agree.
The vast majoirty would disagree given the imperial history of our ruling elite...

Btw have you been watching the Warnings from History on BBC?

There is an interesting section on the apeasment of Hitler by our ruling class - a non agression naval treaty as one example and many other relationships that benefited the fascists...not bad for the BBC

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Adolf Hitler loved to watch feature films and he liked one film in particular, the Hollywood epic The Lives of a Bengal Lancer. 'It was certainly his favourite film,' says Herbert Dohring, a member of Hitler's SS bodyguard, 'and he would always talk about it - this huge English empire - how such a relatively small people could establish and manage something like that.' Hitler would later say, 'What India was for England, the territory of Russia will be for us.'

How was it possible then, that in 1939 Hitler found himself at war with a country whose achievements he admired, Great Britain, and allied to his ideological enemy, the Soviet Union? With the help of archive footage and interviews with eye-witnesses, including former diplomats and members of the Nazi party who had never appeared on television before, this film charts the course of Hitler's road to war.
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  #21977  
Old 20-02-2017, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by dim View Post
Mik makes a good point re FOM.... wonder why Cameron didn't apply those brakes if it was always in his gift? Instead he sought a "new deal" for something which already existed???

Who would think such a thing possible?
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  #21978  
Old 20-02-2017, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cdm61 View Post
but if you want you can start with the Peasents Revolt 1381 and move on from there To view the link you have to Register or Login

This is a Brexit thread in any case - I've already given you the information about the dramatic rise in hate crime against people during and post the vote, which included the murder of an MP..and the Metropolitan Police warnings of much more to come during the exit process
Rise in hate crime reported you mean ? Both police and government encourage it, and so they should. Shame most of the public havnt got a scoobie what constitutes a hate crime / incident nowadays.

A handy guide for people here, as well as how to report it.... To view the link you have to Register or Login

Oh and Essex Police reckon "There is no evidence to suggest any increase has been specifically and directly caused by any one event or issue… There has been an increase in reports of alleged hate crime across Essex, which mirrors a national trend. Hate crime is significantly under-reported and we believe that greater awareness and confidence in the police response has contributed to these increases in reporting.”
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Last edited by Biggineagle; 20-02-2017 at 02:45 PM.
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  #21979  
Old 20-02-2017, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdm61 View Post
The vast majoirty would disagree given the imperial history of our ruling elite...

Btw have you been watching the Warnings from History on BBC?

There is an interesting section on the apeasment of Hitler by our ruling class - a non agression naval treaty as one example and many other relationships that benefited the fascists...not bad for the BBC

To view the link you have to Register or Login
Adolf Hitler loved to watch feature films and he liked one film in particular, the Hollywood epic The Lives of a Bengal Lancer. 'It was certainly his favourite film,' says Herbert Dohring, a member of Hitler's SS bodyguard, 'and he would always talk about it - this huge English empire - how such a relatively small people could establish and manage something like that.' Hitler would later say, 'What India was for England, the territory of Russia will be for us.'

How was it possible then, that in 1939 Hitler found himself at war with a country whose achievements he admired, Great Britain, and allied to his ideological enemy, the Soviet Union? With the help of archive footage and interviews with eye-witnesses, including former diplomats and members of the Nazi party who had never appeared on television before, this film charts the course of Hitler's road to war.
We know all this, but how any of this is relevant, I don't know.

But here we go, I'm being drawn in....

As for the Naval treaty of 1935. Adolf Hitler and Germany at this time was very different to the one that followed. Also bearing in mind the previous World War, people wanted to avoid another conflict. In addition anything that could delay any war was of importance, in 1935 we didn't even have any spitfires yet. To also judge history on today's standards is one thing, but then to add in things like we signed a naval treaty is odd.

The reason Hitler liked the Bengal lancer and the Indian empire was due to his twisted logic that the Germanic race was superior, 'look at them, 250k Britishers lording it over some 400 million Indians'.

You have your view, that we aren't a tolerant country, and now we have to resort to bring the past and Hitler into it, when it just makes it even more apparent your argument is weak, at best.

Last edited by palacea; 20-02-2017 at 02:24 PM.
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  #21980  
Old 20-02-2017, 03:28 PM
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Peasant Revolt 1381
TBF, I did actually think you was going to bring up the Nazis.

Yes I've seen your comments, and I still stand that this country is tolerant country, many around the world would agree.
Comparative to many other countries, I'd agree Britain is tolerant. But it seems to be regressing and doing so from a point where there was still far too much intolerance.

Last edited by chelmsfordeagle; 20-02-2017 at 05:37 PM.
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