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  #23161  
Old 17-08-2018, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by se1eagle View Post
I think it's exactly the same. Many of the high-profile incidents of anti-semitism in the Labour party have come from people who are pro-Palestine (Jackie Walker, Naz Shah, Ken Livingstone) so the line is obviously fine enough that people are crossing over it.

Indeed the line between being anti-Zionist, which the vast majority of pro-Palestinian people are, and being anti-Semitic, is why we have all this controversy about the IHRA definition.
Which is why some here have called a holocaust survivor anti Semitic because he spoke out about parallels he saw with what he witnessed under Nazis with what he'd seen in Gaza. Obviously that's a big no no.
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  #23162  
Old 17-08-2018, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by se1eagle View Post
I think it's exactly the same. Many of the high-profile incidents of anti-semitism in the Labour party have come from people who are pro-Palestine (Jackie Walker, Naz Shah, Ken Livingstone) so the line is obviously fine enough that people are crossing over it.

Indeed the line between being anti-Zionist, which the vast majority of pro-Palestinian people are, and being anti-Semitic, is why we have all this controversy about the IHRA definition.
It's not a fine line at all though is it? Jackie Walker and Ken Livingstone's anti-semitism has nothing whatsoever to do with Palestine. That is driven by their anti-imperalism which is where the real fine line is. Saying there is a fine line between pro palestinian movements and anti-semitism completley and intentionally misrepresents the issue to do Netanyahu's bidding
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  #23163  
Old 17-08-2018, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Whatever. You and Heb tell a black woman she can't be Jewish if you like and deign to give a criteria. I don't think that's on and is vile. And Jewish people on the receiving end of anti-semitism from fascist regimes weren't lucky enough to be spared because they didn't fit your criteria.

I don't like Jaqi Walker or some of her views but that's another matter.
Sorry I will say it again ONE person is trying to redefine who is Jewish its not Heb its not me. Its you what right do you have to say who is Jewish under what criteria are you suggesting it. I have given you the example of what Jewish groups agree the line comes through the father but what criteria has to be met.
The closest I would suggest to your view was the laws used by Nazi Germany for babies born out of wedlock with one Jewish parent post 1936 babies born prior to that date were classified as Mischlings. They were in your terms spared.
So I come back you are defining who is Jewish to suit your agenda and suggest any other view is wrong let me think if I can come up with another example , what about Labour deciding what is antisemitism. The level of contortion that you and others are going through to protect the tarnished Labour image is reaching new heights.
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  #23164  
Old 17-08-2018, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by nickgusset View Post
Which is why some here have called a holocaust survivor anti Semitic because he spoke out about parallels he saw with what he witnessed under Nazis with what he'd seen in Gaza. Obviously that's a big no no.
Weren't those who are saying Hodge was fine to make the comparisson about her second hand experiences also the ones saying it wasn't allowed for the holocaust survivor to make those comparisons about his first hand experiences of Gaza.

So MP of Jewish heritage says Labour like Nazis- A Ok

Holocaust survivour says Israel like Nazis- NO WAY!

?
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  #23165  
Old 17-08-2018, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ExiledStirling View Post
But it adds nothing to the debate. We already know that Hodge is no fan of Corbyn.

From everything I am reading on here, no one is claiming she is a lovely and charming woman, the opposite in fact, so why resort to the sort of tactics that are used to smear Corbyn.
Bugger, you beat me towards pointing out the similarity in tactics



Here is an article that I think is more useful in relation to Hodge's comments in terms of what she actually said, why she said it, and what it means in terms of the jewish community's reaction to Corbyn's words - To view the link you have to Register or Login


I'd also like to add that I wish Corbyn supporters would exercise some of the same skepticism and caution to mainstream news articles about Corbyn as they do to this critics - as right-slanted news organisations do sometimes vastly inflate their statements to make trouble in the Labour party.
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  #23166  
Old 17-08-2018, 02:37 PM
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  #23167  
Old 17-08-2018, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by nickgusset View Post
Which is why some here have called a holocaust survivor anti Semitic because he spoke out about parallels he saw with what he witnessed under Nazis with what he'd seen in Gaza. Obviously that's a big no no.
Antisemitism is measured by impact as well as intent, and a lot of Jews felt what he said was antisemitic.

Plus let's not forget this Holocaust survivor also thought Israel are responsible for 9/11 and was invited to make his odious comparisons, that Corbyn well knew would cause great offense, on Holocaust Memorial day.
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  #23168  
Old 17-08-2018, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
It's not a fine line at all though is it? Jackie Walker and Ken Livingstone's anti-semitism has nothing whatsoever to do with Palestine. That is driven by their anti-imperalism which is where the real fine line is. Saying there is a fine line between pro palestinian movements and anti-semitism completley and intentionally misrepresents the issue to do Netanyahu's bidding
So it's ok to say there's a fine line between anti-imperialism and anti-semitism but it's racist and abhorrent to say there's a fine line between being pro-Palestine and anti-semitism. Why?
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  #23169  
Old 17-08-2018, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
It's not a fine line at all though is it? Jackie Walker and Ken Livingstone's anti-semitism has nothing whatsoever to do with Palestine. That is driven by their anti-imperalism which is where the real fine line is. Saying there is a fine line between pro palestinian movements and anti-semitism completley and intentionally misrepresents the issue to do Netanyahu's bidding
Walker and Livingstone's tirades against Russian imperialism have certainly been impressive.
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  #23170  
Old 17-08-2018, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by nickgusset View Post
Not antisemitic though.
Lets be clear on this there have been many examples of antisemitism on here certainly a number of posts would not pass the IHRA with or without the amendments by Labour.
Only once have I asked the mods to look at it which was a direct attack at a personal level it was dealt with. I will ague with anyone on here I will make very clear if they are overstepping the mark but I am not going to complain at every post that fails the IHRA my choice on using the board and how I do things.
As I have said before I will have a drink with any of you (this season as we are moving closer to Selhurst I am hoping to get to a game or two) sure things get heated on here but so what , however if you dont want a drink because of what I type on antisemitism then trust me I dont want a drink with you either.
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Old 17-08-2018, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by se1eagle View Post
I think it's exactly the same. Many of the high-profile incidents of anti-semitism in the Labour party have come from people who are pro-Palestine (Jackie Walker, Naz Shah, Ken Livingstone) so the line is obviously fine enough that people are crossing over it.

Indeed the line between being anti-Zionist, which the vast majority of pro-Palestinian people are, and being anti-Semitic, is why we have all this controversy about the IHRA definition.
So what? A few people cross over lots of lines. There is not a thin line between being pro-Palestinian and being anti-Semitic and I think it's disgusting to say there is. We aren't gonna agree.
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Old 17-08-2018, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by se1eagle View Post
So it's ok to say there's a fine line between anti-imperialism and anti-semitism but it's racist and abhorrent to say there's a fine line between being pro-Palestine and anti-semitism. Why?
because it's more complicated than that when it comes to the pro Palestine movement and the ways in which the Israeli state use the conflation to justify horrific violence.
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Old 17-08-2018, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Walker and Livingstone's tirades against Russian imperialism have certainly been impressive.
You know thats anti-imperialism in air quotes and to do with regressive leftist attitudes towards Jewish people and the United States, stop being silly.
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Old 17-08-2018, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
As I understand it, you can’t just say you are Jewish. There are indeed criteria.

As for bringing her skin colour into it, that’s well below you.
It totally depends who you speak to. Many secular Jewish people I know wouldn't be regarded as Jewish by others, but I think that's totally wrong.

As I also said the Jewish victims of the Nazis were still oppressed, despite not meeting the Heb/North Herts Jewish criteria.

As for skin colour, it was blatantly obvious that there were loads of undertones to Jaqi Walker not being Jewish, and her being black.
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  #23175  
Old 17-08-2018, 02:58 PM
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So what? A few people cross over lots of lines. There is not a thin line between being pro-Palestinian and being anti-Semitic and I think it's disgusting to say there is. We aren't gonna agree.
Well if the line is so thick then why can't the Labour party agree on where to draw it?
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Old 17-08-2018, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
Sorry I will say it again ONE person is trying to redefine who is Jewish its not Heb its not me. Its you what right do you have to say who is Jewish under what criteria are you suggesting it. I have given you the example of what Jewish groups agree the line comes through the father but what criteria has to be met.
The closest I would suggest to your view was the laws used by Nazi Germany for babies born out of wedlock with one Jewish parent post 1936 babies born prior to that date were classified as Mischlings. They were in your terms spared.
So I come back you are defining who is Jewish to suit your agenda and suggest any other view is wrong let me think if I can come up with another example , what about Labour deciding what is antisemitism. The level of contortion that you and others are going through to protect the tarnished Labour image is reaching new heights.
What right do you have to say who is and isn't Jewish. None. It's not an agenda, it's that you have no right to do so.

If you want to talk about the Nazi laws:

Quote:
As defined by the Nuremberg Laws in 1935, a Jew (Istjude or Volljude in Nazi terminology) was a person – regardless of religious affiliation or self-identification – who had at least three grandparents who had been enrolled with a Jewish congregation.[3] A person with two Jewish grandparents was also legally "Jewish" (so-called Geltungsjude, roughly speaking, in English: "Jew by legal validity" or "to be deemed/reckoned as a Jew") if that person met any of these conditions:

Was enrolled as member of a Jewish congregation when the Nuremberg Laws were issued, or joined later[4]
Was married to a Jew.
Was the offspring from a marriage with a Jew, which was concluded after the ban on mixed marriages.
Was the offspring of an extramarital affair with a Jew, born out of wedlock after 31 July 1936.[5]

A person who did not belong to any of these categorical conditions but had two Jewish grandparents was classified as a Jewish Mischling of the first degree. A person with only one Jewish grandparent was classified as a Mischling of the second degree.[6] See Mischling Test.
So people you are saying can't be Jewish, would have been persecuted by the Nazis.
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Old 17-08-2018, 03:00 PM
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It's not that you shouldn't highlight and call out Anti-Semitism within the pro Palestine movement and its not that it should be claimed it doesn't exist but Hodge is making the argument, intentionally or not, that all pro Palestinian activists verge on anti-antisemitism and that it starts the argument that all pro Palestinian activism to a degree is racist.
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Old 17-08-2018, 03:02 PM
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It's not a fine line at all though is it? Jackie Walker and Ken Livingstone's anti-semitism has nothing whatsoever to do with Palestine. That is driven by their anti-imperalism which is where the real fine line is. Saying there is a fine line between pro palestinian movements and anti-semitism completley and intentionally misrepresents the issue to do Netanyahu's bidding
The difficulty with a certain kind of anti-imperialism (a more traditional 1950's-80's type) is that,from my own experiences and observations, one can end up allied with what are in reality dodgy reactionary forces (my enemy's enemy is my friend) who style themselves as allies with anti-imperialists on certain issues where it suits and then some of the dodgy things about some such groups in this context such as anti-semitic tropes can become accepted and legitimised and internalised within members of the anti imperialist groups.

None of which means of course that there is any necessary nexus whatsoever between being pro the Palestinian cause and being anti semitic.
Some try to exploit it for political reasons;others try to negate or downplay it for political reasons. Neither of which means its a non issue with elements of the party at this time

Last edited by legaleagle2; 17-08-2018 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 17-08-2018, 03:03 PM
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because it's more complicated than that when it comes to the pro Palestine movement and the ways in which the Israeli state use the conflation to justify horrific violence.
It's true though. As true as it is for any other passionately held cause where fervour sometimes strays into prejudice. Why would that be a problem for feminism, antiracism and leftism but not pro-Palestine(ism)?
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Old 17-08-2018, 03:05 PM
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It's not that you shouldn't highlight and call out Anti-Semitism within the pro Palestine movement and its not that it should be claimed it doesn't exist but Hodge is making the argument, intentionally or not, that all pro Palestinian activists verge on anti-antisemitism and that it starts the argument that all pro Palestinian activism to a degree is racist.
Rubbish. If all pro Palestinian activism were antisemitic there wouldn't be a line at all. She said there is one, which by definition means it must be possible to be pro Palestine without being antisemitic
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