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  #23181  
Old 17-08-2018, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by se1eagle View Post
Well if the line is so thick then why can't the Labour party agree on where to draw it?
I've lost you. That isn't what the argument in Labour is about.
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  #23182  
Old 17-08-2018, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by legaleagle2 View Post
The difficulty with a certain kind of anti-imperialism (a more traditional 1950's-80's type) is that,from my own experiences and observations, one can end up allied with what are in reality dodgy reactionary forces (my enemy's enemy is my friend) who style themselves as allies with anti-imperialists on certain issues where it suits and then some of the dodgy things about some such groups in this context such as anti-semitic tropes can become accepted and legitimised and internalised within members of the anti imperialist groups.

None of which means of course that there is any necessary nexus whatsoever between being pro the Palestinian cause and being anti semitic.
Some try to exploit it for political reasons;others try to negate or downplay it for political reasons. Neither of which means its a non issue with elements of the party at this time
Good post.
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  #23183  
Old 17-08-2018, 03:11 PM
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On who and who isn't Jewish, unsurprisingly it's not clear cut.

Quote:
The Society for Humanistic Judaism defines a Jew as "someone who identifies with the history, culture and fate of the Jewish people." In their view it is therefore possible for a non-religious individual to adopt Judaism and join a Humanistic Jewish community, and for the Society for Humanistic Judaism to adopt the person wanting to be part of the Humanistic Jewish family. As Israeli author Amos Oz puts it, "a Jew is anyone who chooses or is compelled to share a common fate with other Jews."
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The question has also arisen in the United Kingdom, where religious schools are allowed to select all, or a proportion of their intake based upon religion. A 2009 ruling, R(E) v Governing Body of JFS, determined that the definition of Jewish religion based upon descent constituted discrimination on ethnic grounds, and therefore contravened racial discrimination laws.
There are lots of people with a Jewish father, who aren't religious, who still regard themselves as Jewish. I can't believe people like Heb and Herts are trying to deny them that identification. This isn't about Jaqi Walker (who I dislike), but the general point.

Last edited by cockneyrebel; 17-08-2018 at 03:18 PM.
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  #23184  
Old 17-08-2018, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
What right do you have to say who is and isn't Jewish. None. It's not an agenda, it's that you have no right to do so.

If you want to talk about the Nazi laws:



So people you are saying can't be Jewish, would have been persecuted by the Nazis.
You want to think about what you have just done because the only way you can support your view is quote the Nazi Laws (I think by the way in terms of her Jewish heritage Walker would have been classed as Mishling).

I am not claiming any right to define I am telling you what the definition is as I said even in Judaism there is a debate when the father is Jewish and the criteria which is used and by whom.
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  #23185  
Old 17-08-2018, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
You want to think about what you have just done because the only way you can support your view is quote the Nazi Laws (I think by the way in terms of her Jewish heritage Walker would have been classed as Mishling).

I am not claiming any right to define I am telling you what the definition is as I said even in Judaism there is a debate when the father is Jewish and the criteria which is used and by whom.
You were the one who started talking about Nazi laws. But actually there is a point about who would or wouldn't face oppression under fascism and the threat that they feel from that. As such that would form part of someone's identity.

There isn't one definition, so you can't tell me what it is.

But I think it's dodgy as **** for you and Heb to start denying people their identity.
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  #23186  
Old 17-08-2018, 03:27 PM
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I have just decided I am Jewish and no one can tell me I am not now and I still think Corbyn is anti semitic against my people.

I'm off out to buy a star of David and a Shamash.
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  #23187  
Old 17-08-2018, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Les Butler View Post
I have just decided I am Jewish and no one can tell me I am not now and I still think Corbyn is anti semitic against my people.

I'm off out to buy a star of David and a Shamash.
Don't forget to trade in your foreskin so you get a discount.
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  #23188  
Old 17-08-2018, 03:33 PM
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Don't forget to trade in your foreskin so you get a discount.
Wa-Alaikum-Salaam..


Okay with your post I have had second thoughts,I need all that I have...
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  #23189  
Old 17-08-2018, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
On who and who isn't Jewish, unsurprisingly it's not clear cut.





There are lots of people with a Jewish father, who aren't religious, who still regard themselves as Jewish. I can't believe people like Heb and Herts are trying to deny them that identification. This isn't about Jaqi Walker (who I dislike), but the general point.
So the first is a definition by a USA organisation established in 1963 of which Jackie Walker has never identified with.

The second is a ruling by the Supreme Court to which I actually agree with and does not break anything I said regarding Walker the boy involved was brought up Jewish.

I will assume your apology
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  #23190  
Old 17-08-2018, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Les Butler View Post
I have just decided I am Jewish and no one can tell me I am not now and I still think Corbyn is anti semitic against my people.

I'm off out to buy a star of David and a Shamash.
About time enjoy the Salt Beef
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  #23191  
Old 17-08-2018, 03:40 PM
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About time enjoy the Salt Beef
Love salt beef(smoked meat rie bread) ,just checking out if I really have to have a part of my knob lobbed off,maybe I might be an associate member ?

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  #23192  
Old 17-08-2018, 03:53 PM
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Sorry I will say it again ONE person is trying to redefine who is Jewish its not Heb its not me. Its you what right do you have to say who is Jewish under what criteria are you suggesting it. I have given you the example of what Jewish groups agree the line comes through the father but what criteria has to be met.
The closest I would suggest to your view was the laws used by Nazi Germany for babies born out of wedlock with one Jewish parent post 1936 babies born prior to that date were classified as Mischlings. They were in your terms spared.
So I come back you are defining who is Jewish to suit your agenda and suggest any other view is wrong let me think if I can come up with another example , what about Labour deciding what is antisemitism. The level of contortion that you and others are going through to protect the tarnished Labour image is reaching new heights.
Just to be clear for my understanding. Is being Jewish an ethnicity and a religion, or just a religion. If it is an ethnicity why do you need conform/brought up with a set belief system to qualify? Isn't that like saying someone with an Indian grandparent isn't Indian because they have been brought up in the UK and do not identify with Indian culture therefore negating 25% of their ethnicity?
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  #23193  
Old 17-08-2018, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
So the first is a definition by a USA organisation established in 1963 of which Jackie Walker has never identified with.

The second is a ruling by the Supreme Court to which I actually agree with and does not break anything I said regarding Walker the boy involved was brought up Jewish.

I will assume your apology
Me giving examples of the different views on this doesn’t warrant an apology lol

But you saying someone who has a Jewish has no right to identity as Jewish unless they meet certain criteria does warrant an apology.
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  #23194  
Old 17-08-2018, 04:22 PM
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Who's a jew who's not a jew just like on here we are are not the only people that love a bit of self flagellation and just because a Jew say disagrees with my view or anybodies they have that right to 1OO%.

Its if they are right or wrong thats the discussion...And really this should not be targeting Jews which seems to be the case now, we are talking about Corbyn and his attitude towards Jews as a leader and associating with people that murder jews then asking everyone to get along....

I could get 10 examples of Jews disagreeing with CRs Jews on facebook...Big deal.
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  #23195  
Old 17-08-2018, 04:33 PM
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On a different note... what do people want Corbyn to do after this has died down?

There's an article by Paul Mason (who's part of Momentum) on the New Statesman saying Corbyn should offer a 2nd referendum, offer Scotland even greater powers of devolution, and "revitalise" the Shadow Cabinet. I'm dubious on Corbyn being able to win back Scottish voters with more devolution - I feel like he can't outbid Sturgeon on that score and shouldn't try.

Any thoughts on what else he should do?
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  #23196  
Old 17-08-2018, 04:46 PM
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I think there are people with a Jewish father who are still raised with a sense of Jewish culture and who, through their whole lives, will feel that their Jewish identity is important to them.

That isn't Jackie Walker. She grew up in a single parent Catholic family. She claims that her mother had an affair with a Jewish man in the US (Walker and her mother came to the UK when she was a toddler).

Walker went her whole life not being Jewish, and then adopted Jewish identity well into adulthood in order to act as a shield from the horribly Anti-Semitic (Jews were chief financers of the slave trade) and ignorant (why doesn't Holocaust memorial Day include any other genocides) things she likes coming out with.

Suggesting Walker is an authentic voice to talk about Anti-Semitism is despicable. She isn't Jewish, any more than Ken Livingstone's favourite person was.
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  #23197  
Old 17-08-2018, 04:52 PM
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I think there are people with a Jewish father who are still raised with a sense of Jewish culture and who, through their whole lives, will feel that their Jewish identity is important to them.

That isn't Jackie Walker. She grew up in a single parent Catholic family. She claims that her mother had an affair with a Jewish man in the US (Walker and her mother came to the UK when she was a toddler).

Walker went her whole life not being Jewish, and then adopted Jewish identity well into adulthood in order to act as a shield from the horribly Anti-Semitic (Jews were chief financers of the slave trade) and ignorant (why doesn't Holocaust memorial Day include any other genocides) things she likes coming out with.

Suggesting Walker is an authentic voice to talk about Anti-Semitism is despicable. She isn't Jewish, any more than Ken Livingstone's favourite person was.
Your logic pretty much destroys the point of the programme 'Who do you think you are"

They should end the show by saying "Sorry forget everything we have just told you about your family tree, you have been brought up English therefore your ancestry is null and void".
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Old 17-08-2018, 04:53 PM
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On a different note... what do people want Corbyn to do after this has died down?

There's an article by Paul Mason (who's part of Momentum) on the New Statesman saying Corbyn should offer a 2nd referendum, offer Scotland even greater powers of devolution, and "revitalise" the Shadow Cabinet. I'm dubious on Corbyn being able to win back Scottish voters with more devolution - I feel like he can't outbid Sturgeon on that score and shouldn't try.

Any thoughts on what else he should do?
Agree on a people’s vote for Brexit. Scotland I don’t know, would be good to hear views from Scotland. A detailed plan of regional funds and what will be built. A big splash on the housing policy which is far better than the tories and add in private rent capping. Reaffirm scrapping anti union laws.

Would also like campaigns built on anti racism, to support the NHS. Get labour supporters out on the streets.
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Old 17-08-2018, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
I think there are people with a Jewish father who are still raised with a sense of Jewish culture and who, through their whole lives, will feel that their Jewish identity is important to them.

That isn't Jackie Walker. She grew up in a single parent Catholic family. She claims that her mother had an affair with a Jewish man in the US (Walker and her mother came to the UK when she was a toddler).

Walker went her whole life not being Jewish, and then adopted Jewish identity well into adulthood in order to act as a shield from the horribly Anti-Semitic (Jews were chief financers of the slave trade) and ignorant (why doesn't Holocaust memorial Day include any other genocides) things she likes coming out with.

Suggesting Walker is an authentic voice to talk about Anti-Semitism is despicable. She isn't Jewish, any more than Ken Livingstone's favourite person was.
Heb, the arbiter of someone’s identity. Especially if you had a single parent. Disgusting.

It’s like if someone is mixed race, Heb saying you have no right to look at the side of your ancestry that wasn’t the side of the single parent. You have no right to identify with that.

It’s disgusting. You’re a piece of shit.
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  #23200  
Old 17-08-2018, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
I think there are people with a Jewish father who are still raised with a sense of Jewish culture and who, through their whole lives, will feel that their Jewish identity is important to them.

That isn't Jackie Walker. She grew up in a single parent Catholic family. She claims that her mother had an affair with a Jewish man in the US (Walker and her mother came to the UK when she was a toddler).

Walker went her whole life not being Jewish, and then adopted Jewish identity well into adulthood in order to act as a shield from the horribly Anti-Semitic (Jews were chief financers of the slave trade) and ignorant (why doesn't Holocaust memorial Day include any other genocides) things she likes coming out with.

Suggesting Walker is an authentic voice to talk about Anti-Semitism is despicable. She isn't Jewish, any more than Ken Livingstone's favourite person was.
I don't know this Jackie Walker, I'm more a black and blue label Johnnie guy, but it appears she's an English Catholic by upbringing.

Presumably you wouldn't object to her simply saying she has a Jewish Father?

But yeah it is hard to think she will have experienced anti-Semitism from a victim's perspective.
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