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  #28941  
Old 15-02-2019, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by NickP View Post
Well, he won't stand down and I'd be disappointed if he did.
And therein lies the problem. You say you want a socialist government, yet you'd be disappointed if a leader with the worst approval ratings since 1977 stands down, even though he would almost certainly be replaced by someone with very similar politics.

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Last edited by se1eagle; 15-02-2019 at 04:50 PM.
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  #28942  
Old 15-02-2019, 04:59 PM
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That poll is a little unfair. I’m sure people would have been against IDS a lot more if anyone had noticed he was there
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  #28943  
Old 15-02-2019, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by NickP View Post
The big vote movers in the campaign seemed to be the Labour manifesto and the Tory manifesto (unusually!)

Would a centrist manifesto have caught the voters' imaginations?
Big issue with the Labour manifesto was its affordability and borrowing requirement, big issue with the Tory one was the austerity.

I think the campaign was fought on very negative terms, don't vote Tory due to cuts, don't vote Labour as they'd bankrupt us, rather than positive campaigning.

However also have to look at why the Lib Dems were so incapable of capitalising.
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  #28944  
Old 15-02-2019, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by se1eagle View Post
And therein lies the problem. You say you want a socialist government, yet you'd be disappointed if a leader with the worst approval ratings since 1977 stands down, even though he would almost certainly be replaced by someone with very similar politics.

Wow.
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  #28945  
Old 15-02-2019, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
That poll is a little unfair. I’m sure people would have been against IDS a lot more if anyone had noticed he was there
Very good point!
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  #28946  
Old 15-02-2019, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by NickP View Post
What happened with Ed Miliband?
Aside from being unable to eat a bacon sandwich, he obviously failed to draw enough central voters to him.

Thanks for helping demonstrate my point
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  #28947  
Old 15-02-2019, 06:58 PM
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Sadly despite us both being on ignore you can still see posts through quotes.

Anyone who says I left labour because of Iraq war but support the Nordic model is disingenuous at best. Blair’s labour pre the Iraq war was not the Nordic model.

On top of that those that support the Nordic model do so full well knowing it’s not a model that can work globally. It depends on finance capital and huge reserves which profit from the the terrible exploitation of the capitalist system.

It’s an utter cop out where people can pretend they want a fairer system while knowing the model they offer isn’t possible without wider terrible oppression.
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  #28948  
Old 15-02-2019, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by se1eagle View Post
And therein lies the problem. You say you want a socialist government, yet you'd be disappointed if a leader with the worst approval ratings since 1977 stands down, even though he would almost certainly be replaced by someone with very similar politics.

I always thought Kinnock was okay.

Until that stupid rally in Sheffield that is.
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  #28949  
Old 15-02-2019, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by The Misfit View Post
I always thought Kinnock was okay.

Until that stupid rally in Sheffield that is.
Okay, but not alright?
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  #28950  
Old 15-02-2019, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
Aside from being unable to eat a bacon sandwich, he obviously failed to draw enough central voters to him.
It is a sad commentary on the state of our democracy but it was probably the bacon sandwich which did for him.
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  #28951  
Old 15-02-2019, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by se1eagle View Post
Okay, but not alright?
Boom boom!
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  #28952  
Old 17-02-2019, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
Here's a weird thought... you don't win an election by one wing of your party, let alone the electorate.

A competent leader needs to be draw the central vote to their cause.
Labour had the biggest increase in their vote since just after WW2 at the last election though and centralist social democrats have been losing power across the western world.

I would question as well the idea of the "centre" what it seems to have come to mean is actually the economic right wing but somewhat socially liberal, its vastly overrepresented in the media IMHO.

I notice that theres been almost no comment from the media as well that the attacks of Marx tomb might be driven by right wing anti-Semiticism, I mean when did that ever hurt anybody?

Last edited by Halftime Gold; 17-02-2019 at 04:07 PM.
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  #28953  
Old 17-02-2019, 07:00 PM
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Labour had the biggest increase in their vote since just after WW2 at the last election though and centralist social democrats have been losing power across the western world.
Labour lost the election
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  #28954  
Old 17-02-2019, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halftime Gold View Post
I would question as well the idea of the "centre" what it seems to have come to mean is actually the economic right wing but somewhat socially liberal, its vastly overrepresented in the media IMHO.
To be honest, it doesn't matter what the centre is. My point was more along the lines that if your out at the right wing or the left wing, you need to extent your support into the middle to gather enough votes to win an election. Similarly, a centrist candidate would need to try and gather support to the right and left of him. The continued use of centrist as some sort of comparison to the spawn of satan by some on here does them no favours as these are the people who need to be won over.
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  #28955  
Old 17-02-2019, 07:42 PM
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Poll in the Observer today has around 50% ish of voters feeling Labour and Tories are drifting too far left and right for them and are interested in a new party
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  #28956  
Old 17-02-2019, 07:47 PM
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The Guardian yesterday suggesting the new party will be called the Reformist Party. As one of the people whose votes they'd be after, I have to say that is possibly the wankiest name conceivable.
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  #28957  
Old 18-02-2019, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
To be honest, it doesn't matter what the centre is. My point was more along the lines that if your out at the right wing or the left wing, you need to extent your support into the middle to gather enough votes to win an election. Similarly, a centrist candidate would need to try and gather support to the right and left of him. The continued use of centrist as some sort of comparison to the spawn of satan by some on here does them no favours as these are the people who need to be won over.
Again I think this really depends how you view the idea of centralism.

I would say that the idea of it as a negative trate is not a rejection of a wide appeal to the public at large but rather as a very specific ideology as pushed by much pf the media/political establishment. You very often see "centralist" in quotation marks I think to signify this that its an ideology that isn't actually aiming at the economic centre but rather to the right and the privileged.

If you look at specific policy's for example I think Corbyn looking to extensive renationalisation, more effective taxation of corporations, on halting privatisation of the NHS, rebuilding council house stock, etc are not policy's that appeal to the minority left but rather ones that appeal to the majority. Equally his position on Brexit is appealing to both remain and leave voters whilst "centralists" within the party appeal purely to remain.

Labour I think clearly find themselves in the position were a politician who offers policy's with the widest appeal to voters is going to be in conflict with much of the media and political establishment which is geared towards representing the interests of the wealthy. That's going to result in a great deal of hostility from both of those areas towards him. I think you see a lot of compromise from Corbyn when it comes to appealing across the Labour party itself but equally you see extreme hostility towards him from those on the right who will not accept a loss of the control they enjoyed previously and have preferred sabotage to co operation even at the cost of potentially being in government.

Last edited by Halftime Gold; 18-02-2019 at 03:13 AM.
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  #28958  
Old 18-02-2019, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Blue Eagle View Post
Poll in the Observer today has around 50% ish of voters feeling Labour and Tories are drifting too far left and right for them and are interested in a new party
Only 50?
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  #28959  
Old 18-02-2019, 08:22 AM
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Equally his position on Brexit is appealing to both remain and leave voters whilst "centralists" within the party appeal purely to remain
I see what you mean about the term "centralist" in quotes, but I was using central more as a generic term of those neither particularly to the left or the right.

I'll pick on this point about Brexit purely because there is so much noise around it! All the recent polling on this seems to suggest both Corbyn personally and Labour more generally are being damaged by Corbyn's Brexit stance.

Thank you for the considered reply
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  #28960  
Old 18-02-2019, 08:28 AM
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According to rumours on Twitter and the BBC, the 'split' may actually finally be happening.

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