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  #201  
Old 11-11-2017, 10:32 AM
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WW2 Discussion

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Originally Posted by Chief Brody View Post
What does that have to do with GB being within a gnats chuff of being beaten in the BofB?

Hitlerís halt order is infamous, and undoubtedly, fatigue played a key part in this decision. Hence the distribution of stimulants.

Itís very difficult to know what total Army resources were available to GB in the event of the loss of the remaining BEF from an Operation Dynamo failure.

What we do know is c.30k of the BEF were already evacuated prior to Dunkirk.

There were 1, possibly 2 regular Canadian Army Divisions in GB, based on the South. c.30k+ men.

There were other scattered units, in Battalion sized numbers gleaned from Regimental War Diaries. I would suggest no more than 5-10k troops at a guess.

And Churchill told the French on 12 Jun that 30 Divisions of men were in various stages of training.

Virtually all materiel had been lost in France vehicles/artillery). And artillery was in short supply then.

Again, the key issue though, was the defeat of our Air Force and Home Fleet to enable Germany to take advantage of the hypothetical loss of 300k men. The Germans were not equipped to do so though, for previous reasons stated.

And we know the cupboard was not bare with regards troops.

Always interested to see evidence Iím unaware of to show we were a gnats chuff from being invaded and knocked out of the War.
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Re Benteke - 14 May 2017
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  #202  
Old 11-11-2017, 11:08 AM
Se9 eagles Se9 eagles is offline
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Originally Posted by Chief Brody View Post
Hitlerís halt order is infamous, and undoubtedly, fatigue played a key part in this decision. Hence the distribution of stimulants.

Itís very difficult to know what total Army resources were available to GB in the event of the loss of the remaining BEF from an Operation Dynamo failure.

What we do know is c.30k of the BEF were already evacuated prior to Dunkirk.

There were 1, possibly 2 regular Canadian Army Divisions in GB, based on the South. c.30k+ men.

There were other scattered units, in Battalion sized numbers gleaned from Regimental War Diaries. I would suggest no more than 5-10k troops at a guess.

And Churchill told the French on 12 Jun that 30 Divisions of men were in various stages of training.

Virtually all materiel had been lost in France vehicles/artillery). And artillery was in short supply then.

Again, the key issue though, was the defeat of our Air Force and Home Fleet to enable Germany to take advantage of the hypothetical loss of 300k men. The Germans were not equipped to do so though, for previous reasons stated.

And we know the cupboard was not bare with regards troops.

Always interested to see evidence Iím unaware of to show we were a gnats chuff from being invaded and knocked out of the War.
Of all the unanswered questions of the War it's the 'Halt Order'that is the most puzzling.Did Hitler want to give Goering the chance to finish the BEF,did he fear a late allied flanking attack as at Arras or did he still not view Britain as the main enemy and hoped that Dunkirk would be seen as a cowardly retreat and force Churchill's replacement by a more conciliatory politician like Halifax?In any event Guderian and the other panzer commanders were furious and Dunkirk was seen as a victory that actually strengthened Churchill's position.
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  #203  
Old 11-11-2017, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Se9 eagles View Post
Of all the unanswered questions of the War it's the 'Halt Order'that is the most puzzling.Did Hitler want to give Goering the chance to finish the BEF,did he fear a late allied flanking attack as at Arras or did he still not view Britain as the main enemy and hoped that Dunkirk would be seen as a cowardly retreat and force Churchill's replacement by a more conciliatory politician like Halifax?In any event Guderian and the other panzer commanders were furious and Dunkirk was seen as a victory that actually strengthened Churchill's position.
Possibly the Battle of Arras put the wind up them. Their anti-tank guns seemed ineffective on the ridiculous Matilda tank.

Here a short analysis from Wiki.

In 1953, L. F. Ellis, the British official historian wrote that the attack at Arras succeeded in easing German pressure round Arras and delaying the encirclement of the BEF. The ground between Arras and the Cojeul was re-occupied and there was no serious German attack on the town, Rommel making the alarmist claim that the attack was made by five divisions. Beyond the delay imposed on German moves and the many casualties inflicted on the Germans, the attack was bound to fail without a force sufficiently powerful to follow up and consolidate the captured ground. Rundstedt, the commander of Army Group A, had intended that the panzer divisions should rest after the exertions on 20 May.[26] In 1978, Cooper wrote that the attack at Arras led to the German higher commanders to continue to attack northwards, to capture the channel ports. Attacking to the south-west was rejected and OKH ordered Panzergruppe von Kleist to capture Boulogne and Calais, about 50 miles (80*km) away. Apprehension of another Allied attack caused Rundstedt to order Panzergruppe Hoth to remain in position, the XLI Corps (Reinhardt) sent a division eastwards as a precaution and Kleist diverted the 10th Panzer Division and parts of the 1st Panzer Division and the 2nd Panzer Division from the XIX Corps (Guderian) to hold the bridgehead over the Somme, which slowed the advance to Dunkirk from the beginning. The XIX Corps attacked again at 8:00 a.m. on 22 May but was still hampered by a "near paralysis" in the German command, Rundstedt ordering that the instructions from OKH were to be ignored and the advance on Boulogne and Calais would have to wait. At 12:40 p.m. Rundstedt countermanded his own order but for five hours, the panzers had waited on the Amache river.[27]
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  #204  
Old 11-11-2017, 11:57 AM
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The home fleet was entirely the reason Hitler held off. He wanted to clear the skies before launching across the channel at which point the Luftwaffe could blast the Navy out of the water. I believe though that Britain was in acute danger till Hitler snapped and lost his focus. We bombed Berlin and the unforseen consequence was that Hitler, in a fit of anger turned away from the attritional war with the RAF, which he was winning,, though at great cost. He started blasting London and that gave the RAF breathing space to repair our airfields and get more planes into the air. His other fatal error was to believe every thing Goering told him. Right up unto Stalingrad Goering promised things that couldnt be delivered. He would stop the Dunkirk evacuation and smash the BEF. He No bombs would fall on Berlin. Finally he promised he could keep the the army holed up in Stalingrad supplied. Failed on every one
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  #205  
Old 11-11-2017, 12:10 PM
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I only got it since I suddenly realised that just about every war documentary seemed to have him in it and he featured massively in the Churchill museum. Apparently he'd been sneakily keeping notes/diary and his family persuaded him to write it up in the 1980s. He was initially Chamberlain's PPS and the first few months he's absolutely roasting Churchill saying he'd be an absolute disaster as PM etc which I think was a fair reflection of the Establishment opinion at the time ie the people seemed to love him but the Establishment didn't ! There's then a long bit written in 1980 where he says he completely changed his mind after working with him etc.

Also noticed he figured quite a lot in The Crown I watched the other day. Obviously had an interesting life !
Jock Colevilles contribution on World at War was interesting and part of what made that series so good. He was very much the Sir Bernard(Yes ministerof the time. He skilfully, and he is not alone in this, trimmed his views to whoever was his political master. His image of the way Churchill had senior civil servants running down corridors in Whitehall is hilarious. I too must look these memoirs out
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  #206  
Old 11-11-2017, 12:11 PM
Se9 eagles Se9 eagles is offline
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Originally Posted by cranesparkeagle View Post
The home fleet was entirely the reason Hitler held off. He wanted to clear the skies before launching across the channel at which point the Luftwaffe could blast the Navy out of the water. I believe though that Britain was in acute danger till Hitler snapped and lost his focus. We bombed Berlin and the unforseen consequence was that Hitler, in a fit of anger turned away from the attritional war with the RAF, which he was winning,, though at great cost. He started blasting London and that gave the RAF breathing space to repair our airfields and get more planes into the air. His other fatal error was to believe every thing Goering told him. Right up unto Stalingrad Goering promised things that couldnt be delivered. He would stop the Dunkirk evacuation and smash the BEF. He No bombs would fall on Berlin. Finally he promised he could keep the the army holed up in Stalingrad supplied. Failed on every one
Even dropped crates of condoms into Stalingrad.Quite what the starving troops of Sixth Army were supposed to do with those is anyone's guess!
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  #207  
Old 11-11-2017, 12:17 PM
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WW2 Discussion

German fatigue caused by days of constant movement and combat with stiffening, sacrificial resistance by units of the BEF and the French Army were significant factors in the halt.

Certainly, this is the experience of one of the leading German Ďspearheadí motorised Regiments official histories Iím re-reading.

Goering did believe the LW could deliver the final blows in the interim. The RAF prevented them from doing so.

When the assault continued, some 40k French troops still protected the perimeter. They fought very bravely, with the admirable French effort being largely overlooked by popular history in those last few weeks.
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He isnt top class mate

He is a limited player who scores goals with his head
Re Benteke - 14 May 2017

Last edited by Chief Brody; 11-11-2017 at 02:36 PM.
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  #208  
Old 11-11-2017, 12:20 PM
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The home fleet was entirely the reason Hitler held off.

Sorry, it was one of two key reasons, not the sole reason. The RAF was the other.
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He isnt top class mate

He is a limited player who scores goals with his head
Re Benteke - 14 May 2017
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  #209  
Old 11-11-2017, 12:22 PM
Se9 eagles Se9 eagles is offline
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Originally Posted by Chief Brody View Post
German fatigue caused by days of constant movement and combat with stiffening, sacrificial resistance by units of the BEF and the French Army were significant factors in the halt.

Certainly, this is the experience of one of the leading German Ďspearheadí motorised Regiments official histories Iím re-reading.

Goering did believe the LW could deliver the final blows in the interim. The RAF prevented them from doing so.

When the assault continued, some 40k French troops still protected the perimeter. They fought very bravely, with the admirable French effort being largely overlooked in the last few weeks.
Leading to many French historians seeing Dunkirk as a betrayal....
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  #210  
Old 11-11-2017, 12:45 PM
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WW2 Discussion

Re the Pathfinder Force, the other young advocate who went on to command them was Don Bennett.

He argued that if the typical 50 something Air Vice Marshall actually went on Ops, it would have taught them that their oft outdated views, were in need of much needed change.

Bennettís view was that the experience of one AVM death on Ops, would save 200 aircrew from the lessons learnt.

Churchill, in fairness, forbade AVMs from flying on Ops.
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He isnt top class mate

He is a limited player who scores goals with his head
Re Benteke - 14 May 2017
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  #211  
Old 11-11-2017, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Chief Brody View Post
Are you referring to Hamburg itself or the strategy of targeting cities with large populations?
Sorry, only just seen this, I used Hamburg and Dresden as examples because I have been to both. I meant that the strategy ( Harris) shortened the war.
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Old 11-11-2017, 04:24 PM
Se9 eagles Se9 eagles is offline
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Sorry, only just seen this, I used Hamburg and Dresden as examples because I have been to both. I meant that the strategy ( Harris) shortened the war.
Very questionable....
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  #213  
Old 11-11-2017, 04:48 PM
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Canvey, then. What about Canvey?
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:13 PM
Harry Bassett Harry Bassett is offline
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Very questionable....
Nothing is as demoralizing for civilians as having bombs dropped on you with essentially daytime bombing from the Americans and night bombing from us, allied to the intensity under Harris.

All things contributed to beating the Germans, for example the Eastern front but I can tell from personal experience that bombing knocks the stuffing out of morale.

Bombing from us and the Yanks destroyed huge parts of Germany. I fail to understand why any one could think otherwise, it was not just Fritz and Helga at NO. 17 in Strasse Schitte but docks ,munitions and railways etc.
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:29 PM
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And of course both Spitfires and Hurricanes could take off and land on grass with relative ease.
So could the 109. In fact if you have a read of "The Straits of Messina" by Macki Steinhoff he tells of super-rough super short up hill sloped mountainside makeshift airstrips used by the 109F on Sicily, because they were so desperate there. Dangerous, but functional.
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cdm61 View Post
Too much Pervirtin scuppered the destruction of allied armies on the Dunkirk beach - Hitler ordered the tripped out troops to halt after their drug fuelled charge across France. So you are wrong.

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Hitler's all-conquering stormtroopers 'felt invincible because of crystal meth-style drug Pervitin' - The methamphetamine-based drug Pervitin was manufactured from 1937 onwards by the Nazis*and distributed among the armed forces

After having tried it in 1939 during the German invasion of Poland, the German army subsequently ordered 35 million tablets of Pervitin for soldiers before advancing on France in the spring of 1940.

The invasion of France shocked the world. In four days, Hitlerís tanks captured more French territory than German troops had managed to secure in four years of the First World War. Pervitin helped the invading Nazis stay awake, keep going and, apparently, feel great.
Lol, well it may have had an effect, but I think there were other factoes that mattered in reality.
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:35 PM
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So could the 109. In fact if you have a read of "The Straits of Messina" by Macki Steinhoff he tells of super-rough super short up hill sloped mountainside makeshift airstrips used by the 109F on Sicily, because they were so desperate there. Dangerous, but functional.
Couldn't pretty much all WW2 aircraft land and take off from grass? That's my understanding.
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:40 PM
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Spindle Spindle is offline
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Spindle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSpindle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSpindle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSpindle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSpindle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSpindle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSpindle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSpindle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSpindle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSpindle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSpindle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
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Always interested to see evidence Iím unaware of to show we were a gnats chuff from being invaded and knocked out of the War.
The only way that could've happened is if the Germans did not halt and took 300k POW's, then negotiated a surrender with Britain. That is the closest it came.
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:53 PM
cdm61 cdm61 is offline
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Lol, well it may have had an effect, but I think there were other factoes that mattered in reality.
Read this - there is a whole section on the invasion of France - Hitler was unaware of the Pervitin usage. He didn't believe that the Panzer divisions could have got that far in (Dunkirk) is such a short space of time. He ordered the halt because he didn't trust the General's and thought there would be a counter attack. Goering, who was high on morphine due to his WW1 wounds, persuaded him to finish the job off but they couldn't due to fuel restrictions.

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The Nazis presented themselves as warriors against moral degeneracy. Yet, as Norman Ohler's gripping bestseller reveals, the entire Third Reich was permeated with drugs: cocaine, heroin, morphine and, most of all, methamphetamines, or crystal meth, used by everyone from factory workers to housewives, and crucial to troops' resilience - even partly explaining German victory in 1940.

While drugs cannot on their own explain the events of the Second World War or its outcome, Ohler shows, they change our understanding of it. Blitzed forms a crucial missing piece of the story.

Last edited by cdm61; 11-11-2017 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:07 PM
foresthillbilly foresthillbilly is offline
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Hitlerís halt order is infamous, and undoubtedly, fatigue played a key part in this decision. Hence the distribution of stimulants.

Itís very difficult to know what total Army resources were available to GB in the event of the loss of the remaining BEF from an Operation Dynamo failure.

What we do know is c.30k of the BEF were already evacuated prior to Dunkirk.

There were 1, possibly 2 regular Canadian Army Divisions in GB, based on the South. c.30k+ men.

There were other scattered units, in Battalion sized numbers gleaned from Regimental War Diaries. I would suggest no more than 5-10k troops at a guess.

And Churchill told the French on 12 Jun that 30 Divisions of men were in various stages of training.

Virtually all materiel had been lost in France vehicles/artillery). And artillery was in short supply then.

Again, the key issue though, was the defeat of our Air Force and Home Fleet to enable Germany to take advantage of the hypothetical loss of 300k men. The Germans were not equipped to do so though, for previous reasons stated.

And we know the cupboard was not bare with regards troops.

Always interested to see evidence Iím unaware of to show we were a gnats chuff from being invaded and knocked out of the War.
OK, my language was sloppy, and details missing.
(and this is another shoddy post )
But there is a recent documentary about the Dambusters last raid, which narrowly broke a German rocket launch site in northern France, which is thought within a couple of months could have launched rockets which took 2 minutes to fly to London. I think the assumption was we narrowly avoided a pulverising by German rockets.

The people of Rye and Winchelsea went to huge efforts putting debris in the shoreline to prevent enemy invasion, and also had thousands of gallons of fuel at the ready to dump into the sea and ignite if Operation Sealion went ahead.

Lots of similar stories about different allied forces doing heroic acts (Bletchley code-breakers), and no one force can be attributed with victory. Just very glad they did.
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