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  #241  
Old 11-11-2017, 09:01 PM
Se9 eagles Se9 eagles is offline
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Just another pointless war that wasn't in Britain's national interest to get involved in.
There is a widely held feeling that Hitler had no interest in Britain and her Empire and only wanted to undo the wrongs of the Versailles treaty and gain lebensraum in the east.If Germany had won the war and achieved a huge continental empire with a compliant France on its western border its difficult though to see how we could have peacefully co-existed with them...
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  #242  
Old 11-11-2017, 09:46 PM
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The most sophisticated weaponry? OK stop now please.

Quite simply it was good tactics and CAS to punch through the fronts, vs an Army already in a mess which had dreadful communications. Once you punch through you are in open country, that's all they needed to do and they did it easily. You need co-ordination and decent kit to do that, so no, their kit wasn't inferior at all.
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Armour: In May 1940 France had over 3,000 tanks, and in terms of numbers, quality and firepower they were generally superior to those employed by the Germans.
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  #243  
Old 11-11-2017, 09:51 PM
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Armour: In May 1940 France had over 3,000 tanks, and in terms of numbers, quality and firepower they were generally superior to those employed by the Germans.
Very few stationed in the Ardennes sector though which was thought to be impassable to German armour.Once the front had been broken at Sedan and the panzers broke out into open country the game was up...
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  #244  
Old 11-11-2017, 10:16 PM
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WW2 Discussion

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Armour: In May 1940 France had over 3,000 tanks, and in terms of numbers, quality and firepower they were generally superior to those employed by the Germans.

Yes, the Char1b & Somua s35 were both superior overall to German tanks at that stage. The French Army was rightly regarded with respect prior to the War (due to its size, mainly).

Yet, German strategy and tactics from the infantry squad, up, was largely superior to their French equivalents and their overall response. Poor comms exacerbated the situation.

In other respects German equipment was better (basic infantry kit, lmg, assault gun, aircraft).

The key deciding factors were strategy, tactical doctrine and experience that maxed German strengths and exposed French weakness.
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  #245  
Old 11-11-2017, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Chief Brody View Post
Yes, the Char1b & Somua s35 were both superior overall to German tanks at that stage. The French Army was rightly regarded with respect prior to the War (due to its size, mainly).

Yet, German strategy and tactics from the infantry squad, up, was largely superior to their French equivalents and their overall response. Poor comms exacerbated the situation.

In other respects German equipment was better (basic infantry kit, lmg, assault gun, aircraft).

The key deciding factors were strategy, tactical doctrine and experience that maxed German strengths and exposed French weakness.
And most of all pervitin
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  #246  
Old 11-11-2017, 10:35 PM
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Very few stationed in the Ardennes sector though which was thought to be impassable to German armour.Once the front had been broken at Sedan and the panzers broke out into open country the game was up...
How did they get so far so fast though? To view the link you have to Register or Login

German soldiers were supplied with methamphetamines early in 1940 especially in their battles taking over Poland and France as the Blitzkrieg was fueled for speed.*

The drug of Pervitin, manufactured by the Berlin pharmaceutical company of Temmler, was touted in the Klenische Wochenshrift (the Clinical Weekly), per Otto Ranke, Military Doctor and head of the Institute for General and Defense Physiology at Berlinís Academy of Military Medicine, as a wonder drug for soldiers in battle.*

Among the accomplishments were:
Heightened awareness
Increased self confidence
Cooperation in taking dangerous risks
Increased concentration
Reduced sensitivity to pain, hunger and thirst
Reduced need for sleep

The drug, approved for German soldiers had been first tested on 90 University students with what German military officials perceived as great results.* Over 35 million tablets were shipped to Wehrmacht soldiers in 1940.*

The recommended dosage was one to two tablets ďas needed.Ē It was later decided that two tablets taken once would eliminate the need for sleep for three to eight hours.* The dose repeated again would be effective for up to 24 hours.
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  #247  
Old 11-11-2017, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Chief Brody View Post
Yes, the Char1b & Somua s35 were both superior overall to German tanks at that stage. The French Army was rightly regarded with respect prior to the War (due to its size, mainly).

Yet, German strategy and tactics from the infantry squad, up, was largely superior to their French equivalents and their overall response. Poor comms exacerbated the situation.

In other respects German equipment was better (basic infantry kit, lmg, assault gun, aircraft).

The key deciding factors were strategy, tactical doctrine and experience that maxed German strengths and exposed French weakness.

And the Krupp 88. I don't care what tank you are in, it's going to rip you open like a tin can, and it did that easily to the French.

It is no good some of these lads on the thread coming out with all of these things about numbers and equipment as if proving a point. It is more about the sum of the parts and the co-ordination, and the belief of the position at the time. Also, for all this tank nonsense (I wouldn't have wanted to be in any tank crew in WW2, it was a death sentence) there's the air power, of which the French had very little. Hopeless bombers, no support of their front, and a not-quite-good-enough fighter force to deal with the 109E (MS406, D.520 and Curtiss Hawk).

Last edited by Spindle; 11-11-2017 at 10:46 PM.
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  #248  
Old 11-11-2017, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Chief Brody View Post
Yes, the Char1b & Somua s35 were both superior overall to German tanks at that stage. The French Army was rightly regarded with respect prior to the War (due to its size, mainly).

Yet, German strategy and tactics from the infantry squad, up, was largely superior to their French equivalents and their overall response. Poor comms exacerbated the situation.

In other respects German equipment was better (basic infantry kit, lmg, assault gun, aircraft).

The key deciding factors were strategy, tactical doctrine and experience that maxed German strengths and exposed French weakness.
Isn't it true that the French used their tanks in small formations spread out along the front rather than the massed ranks of the panzers which were concentrated in their Schwerpunkts.Also given the speed of the German advance it was impossible for the French to mobilise a large scale armoured counter attack.
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  #249  
Old 11-11-2017, 10:41 PM
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How did they get so far so fast though? To view the link you have to Register or Login

German soldiers were supplied with methamphetamines early in 1940 especially in their battles taking over Poland and France as the Blitzkrieg was fueled for speed.*

The drug of Pervitin, manufactured by the Berlin pharmaceutical company of Temmler, was touted in the Klenische Wochenshrift (the Clinical Weekly), per Otto Ranke, Military Doctor and head of the Institute for General and Defense Physiology at Berlin’s Academy of Military Medicine, as a wonder drug for soldiers in battle.*

Among the accomplishments were:
Heightened awareness
Increased self confidence
Cooperation in taking dangerous risks
Increased concentration
Reduced sensitivity to pain, hunger and thirst
Reduced need for sleep

The drug, approved for German soldiers had been first tested on 90 University students with what German military officials perceived as great results.* Over 35 million tablets were shipped to Wehrmacht soldiers in 1940.*

The recommended dosage was one to two tablets “as needed.” It was later decided that two tablets taken once would eliminate the need for sleep for three to eight hours.* The dose repeated again would be effective for up to 24 hours.
Its a little known fact that the allied coalition in the first Iraq war was all for show, and the entire campaign was single handedly fought by Bez and Shaun Ryder, completely off their noggins
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  #250  
Old 11-11-2017, 11:42 PM
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And most of all pervitin

Are you suggesting the key factor in the success of the Wehrmacht was this drug?
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  #251  
Old 11-11-2017, 11:42 PM
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And the Krupp 88. I don't care what tank you are in, it's going to rip you open like a tin can, and it did that easily to the French.

It is no good some of these lads on the thread coming out with all of these things about numbers and equipment as if proving a point. It is more about the sum of the parts and the co-ordination, and the belief of the position at the time. Also, for all this tank nonsense (I wouldn't have wanted to be in any tank crew in WW2, it was a death sentence) there's the air power, of which the French had very little. Hopeless bombers, no support of their front, and a not-quite-good-enough fighter force to deal with the 109E (MS406, D.520 and Curtiss Hawk).

Doh, how could I have overlooked the 88.
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  #252  
Old 12-11-2017, 12:10 AM
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Bombing population centres has never had a decisive effect on the outcome of a war with the exception of the atomic bombs on Japan.Even here conventional bombing which razed her cities was ineffective in forcing a victory and it was only the awesome power of the new weapons that cowed the Japanese military...
This is not correct. Prior to the dropping of the bombs the Japanese were utterly defeated and suing for peace through the back channels. The US rejected any terms other than unconditional surrender. The Japanese war cabinet was split over the terms they would accept, with the military faction unwilling to accept unconditional surrender. After the Nagasaki bomb Hirohito ordered the military to accept the surrender.

Edited to add: it is more than possible that it was the Soviet's declaration of war on Japan, the day before the Nagasaki bomb, that was the final tipping point.
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  #253  
Old 12-11-2017, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Chief Brody View Post
Are you suggesting the key factor in the success of the Wehrmacht was this drug?
What success? They lost over 4 million men. The British 350,000. Certainly in the early advances and in the death squads it played a key role. In Russia again the early wins yes. But overall no. It exhausted the troops. 17 days without sleep was up the end of the scale but massive come downs ensued.
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  #254  
Old 12-11-2017, 02:28 AM
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WW2 Discussion

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Originally Posted by cdm61 View Post
What success? They lost over 4 million men. The British 350,000. Certainly in the early advances and in the death squads it played a key role. In Russia again the early wins yes. But overall no. It exhausted the troops. 17 days without sleep was up the end of the scale but massive come downs ensued.

The successes of the land mass they took in the first 3 years of a 5 1/2 year War.

No, there were other key factors at play other than a drug.

And if you persist with that blinkered view - It clearly enabled their key military qualities to flourish over prolonged spells based on your premise.

Not really understanding the point you are trying to force, as your original reference to this was trying to argue the point that GB was on the verge of military collapse. Iíve provided clear detail on why we were not.

I sense an agenda but donít want to derail from an enjoyable thread.
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Re Benteke - 14 May 2017

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Old 12-11-2017, 07:50 AM
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Doh, how could I have overlooked the 88.
I'm with you CB. You know your PaK from your 2 pounder and I know my Friedrich from my Gustav. Together we could obliterate James Holland, the charlatan.
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  #256  
Old 12-11-2017, 07:54 AM
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This is not correct. Prior to the dropping of the bombs the Japanese were utterly defeated and suing for peace through the back channels. The US rejected any terms other than unconditional surrender. The Japanese war cabinet was split over the terms they would accept, with the military faction unwilling to accept unconditional surrender. After the Nagasaki bomb Hirohito ordered the military to accept the surrender.

Edited to add: it is more than possible that it was the Soviet's declaration of war on Japan, the day before the Nagasaki bomb, that was the final tipping point.
Yes. The USA needed to drop a second bomb to prevent further Russian involvement by forcing a surrender. But, Little Boy and Fat Man were different bomb types and the USA wanted to try both of them, so.would've dropped them all the same imvho.
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:48 AM
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There is a widely held feeling that Hitler had no interest in Britain and her Empire and only wanted to undo the wrongs of the Versailles treaty and gain lebensraum in the east.If Germany had won the war and achieved a huge continental empire with a compliant France on its western border its difficult though to see how we could have peacefully co-existed with them...
Given what's happening in 2019 (albeit without the war) oh the irony....
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:37 AM
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This is not correct. Prior to the dropping of the bombs the Japanese were utterly defeated and suing for peace through the back channels. The US rejected any terms other than unconditional surrender. The Japanese war cabinet was split over the terms they would accept, with the military faction unwilling to accept unconditional surrender. After the Nagasaki bomb Hirohito ordered the military to accept the surrender.

Edited to add: it is more than possible that it was the Soviet's declaration of war on Japan, the day before the Nagasaki bomb, that was the final tipping point.
But the fact is that the Japanese didn't sue for peace until the atomic bombs were dropped so I stand by my original post.The reason they were dropped was precisely because the carpet bombing of a Japanese cities had failed to end the war.The American military feared huge casualties from fanatical resistance if they had to invade after what they experienced at Okinawa.
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
Yes. The USA needed to drop a second bomb to prevent further Russian involvement by forcing a surrender. But, Little Boy and Fat Man were different bomb types and the USA wanted to try both of them, so.would've dropped them all the same imvho.
Can't agree with that I'm afraid.The Russians were already defeating the Japanese in Manchuria and you're not seriously suggesting they were planning to invade the Japanese mainland?
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:04 AM
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Blimey, this thread has turned a bit random (though I am willing to buy the Happy Mondays Iraq theory).
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