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  #61  
Old 08-11-2017, 08:23 PM
Harry Bassett Harry Bassett is offline
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A fictional read from a few years back is Bomber by Len Deighton, you start with a young guy enrolled into the RAF and eventually feel sympathy for a German in a similar situation with his family.

In the German town/city of Augsburg they still have on display a shelter used for residents of alms houses during the war, which was not that substantial. On reflection the Anderson and Morris shelters we used would not have been much use if taking a hit.

Many properties down my road were flattened with quite a few bombs dropping around us.

If you get a chance try to find the "bombing" maps of South London, Quite a few hits because of Croydon Airport ( very notable at that time ) and of course bases such as Kenley and Biggin Hill.
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:35 PM
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Yes, I get that, but they could get ashore quickly there and have immediate use of two airfields.

I should imagine that Churchill and Harris would also have had a hard time persuading anyone that bombing your own civilian population was the way to go. IOW would have been a decent staging post, though certainly not a walk in the park.

I would have been amazed if it was even remotely considered.
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:43 PM
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Re East Anglia, apart from Ipswich what other ports are there?
I know D-Day managed without taking St Malo and Cherbourg for a few weeks but at least they were there to be taken.
Kings Lynn- Gorleston-Lowestoft (with war ships ) are other Ports but East Anglia sparsley populated and with shallow landing areas and fairly easy to move quickly. Across the North sea from Adolph.

Every one was worried about the possibility of a German invasion, news was very heavily censored and so much news filtered through after the event.

So different in those days with massive convoys of trucks and Air raid sirens etc. Pom potato powder-Dried Egg-Bread and Dripping. No Coal.Bleedin Germans.

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Old 08-11-2017, 08:50 PM
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WW2 Discussion

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Kings Lynn- Gorleston-Lowestoft (with war ships ) are other Ports but East Anglia sparsley populated and with shallow landing areas and fairly easy to move quickly. Across the North Sea.

You implied 1943 based on your saying the amount of allied aircraft in that area.

Germany had zero chance of launching an invasion then. For the same reasons as I stated previously, and 3 years on, multiplied several times over.

1940 was the window, and they lost their slim chance of setting the opportunity up post Battle of Britain.
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:54 PM
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Apparently if there was an invasion The Home Guard would have been more of a danger to themselves than anyone else. It seems 'Dad's Army' was quite an accurate representation.
Most of the men in the Home Guard had been in the trenches in France just over twenty years before. They knew how to hold a rifle and how to kill Germans.
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Old 08-11-2017, 10:25 PM
Harry Bassett Harry Bassett is offline
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You implied 1943 based on your saying the amount of allied aircraft in that area.

Germany had zero chance of launching an invasion then. For the same reasons as I stated previously, and 3 years on, multiplied several times over.

1940 was the window, and they lost their slim chance of setting the opportunity up post Battle of Britain.
You are basing your opinion on what we know now or think we know. We did not know if we were going to be invaded, perhaps unfair, but try to look at the whole situation from a wartime perspective from British people, not Naval, Air
Force or Army commanders or retrospective knowledge.

Irrespective of post war knowledge people of East Anglia were fearful of invasion, the reference to East Anglia and Allied aircraft was because of its close proximity to Germany.

Of course you are probably correct in your comments but in real time we did not know the duration of the war.

Apart from my own observations I know or knew so many people involved from SOE to others seeing men with heads blown off and Family members carted off to German prison camps.
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Old 08-11-2017, 10:42 PM
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Old 08-11-2017, 11:10 PM
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an interesting read of a simulation of Operation Sea-Lion

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Old 09-11-2017, 06:55 AM
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Time for a new question?

1) If Czechoslovakia had refused to hand over Sudetenland in 1938, how would it have played out?

This one particularly interests me. Bear in mind that Czechoslovakia has a very good military, including high-quality tanks and good mountain defences. Germany was still not ready for war in early 1938.
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:09 AM
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Time for a new question?

1) If Czechoslovakia had refused to hand over Sudetenland in 1938, how would it have played out?

This one particularly interests me. Bear in mind that Czechoslovakia has a very good military, including high-quality tanks and good mountain defences. Germany was still not ready for war in early 1938.
They would still have been defeated in the same way as Poland the following year.Hitler was actually upset that Munich had robbed him of his war and blamed Mussollni for calling for a conference.See the Hossbach memo in Nov 1937 where he clearly stated the Czechoslovakia was th be smashed in the near future.The problem for the Czechs and the Poles was that France and the USSR could never agree on how to help them in the event of a German attack......

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Old 09-11-2017, 07:14 AM
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Most of the men in the Home Guard had been in the trenches in France just over twenty years before. They knew how to hold a rifle and how to kill Germans.
My grandfather was a train driver and was in the Home Guard.He talked a good game but didn't even had a gun!He reckoned they would do the panzers with Molotov cocktails....
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:38 AM
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Like most turning points in WW2, Battle of Britain was determined by key decisions made for idealistic/political/emotive reasons by Hitler not for sound military reasons. The switch from bombing airfields to cities was an important one. If the invasion came, we might have fought them on the beaches but we would likely have capitulated. The upper echelons of society in Britain would have collaborated with the Nazis just like what happened in France and elsewhere. It happened in Jersey.
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:02 AM
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WW2 Discussion

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Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
Several reasons.



Germans had superb pocket battleships and more advanced submarine tactics.



While there was no major naval face off in WW2, in WW1, the Battle of Jutland proved that the German navy outmatched the British pound for pound.



Finally, I remember reading somewhere that the German sailors were better trained, disciplined and all-round more effective than pretty much all other navies at the time.

Thanks.

The Kreigsmarine could not compete with the RN in a straight fight, hence their choice of vessels to produce, was largely to attack our commerce. (Versailles limitations drove this too.) They did not want, nor seek direct major fleet actions.

The RN had no real need to develop tactics in this way, given its sheer strength and global logistical port/base infrastructure.

Clearly, German tactics were successful and very concerning in the first 3 years of the War. Increasing technology and tactics by the RN, Coastal Command and Allies took a fearful toll on them though. The U-Boot men were very brave IMO.

Re Jutland. Canít agree there. Yes, RN losses greater, due in main to hesitant leadership from Jellicoe and poor comms. Not wholesale outclassing from the High Seas Fleet. Jellicoe was removed afterwards.

The fact that the Imperial Navy was bottled up post Jutland is illustrative of the mental dominance we had over it, and for justifiable reasons. In a pure, prolonged slugfest, they believed they would come off worse.
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:08 AM
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Like most turning points in WW2, Battle of Britain was determined by key decisions made for idealistic/political/emotive reasons by Hitler not for sound military reasons.

The LW believed they would defeat Fighter Command in the South of England in 4 days.

They believed they would destroy all airfields and a/c production in 4 weeks.

Whatever Hitlerís level of determination to beat us was, they lost for Military reasons.
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:41 AM
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Thanks.

The Kreigsmarine could not compete with the RN in a straight fight, hence their choice of vessels to produce, was largely to attack our commerce. (Versailles limitations drove this too.) They did not want, nor seek direct major fleet actions.

The RN had no real need to develop tactics in this way, given its sheer strength and global logistical port/base infrastructure.

Clearly, German tactics were successful and very concerning in the first 3 years of the War. Increasing technology and tactics by the RN, Coastal Command and Allies took a fearful toll on them though. The U-Boot men were very brave IMO.

Re Jutland. Canít agree there. Yes, RN losses greater, due in main to hesitant leadership from Jellicoe and poor comms. Not wholesale outclassing from the High Seas Fleet. Jellicoe was removed afterwards.

The fact that the Imperial Navy was bottled up post Jutland is illustrative of the mental dominance we had over it, and for justifiable reasons. In a pure, prolonged slugfest, they believed they would come off worse.
Fair enough. I suspect you have a greater knowledge of the naval war than me, it's not a side I have read a great deal on. But all these points do seem to come back to quantity rather than quality, which was my original point.

But RE: Jutland. Isn't that the point though? The British suffered heavy losses because of poor leadership and communications. The German fleet didn't seem to have these issues and I think it is generally accepted that in a battle of equal numbers, the Germans would have won.

Was there any naval battle in WW1 or WW2 between GB and Germany where equal numbers squared off? I am not aware of any.
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:45 AM
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Like most turning points in WW2, Battle of Britain was determined by key decisions made for idealistic/political/emotive reasons by Hitler not for sound military reasons. The switch from bombing airfields to cities was an important one. If the invasion came, we might have fought them on the beaches but we would likely have capitulated. The upper echelons of society in Britain would have collaborated with the Nazis just like what happened in France and elsewhere. It happened in Jersey.
didn't Goring meet with Hitler during The Battle of Britain and plead with him to change the plans completely as the Luftwaffe had no answers to the Spitfires and Mustangs? Hitler dismissed Goring to carry on regardless?
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:46 AM
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They would still have been defeated in the same way as Poland the following year.Hitler was actually upset that Munich had robbed him of his war and blamed Mussollni for calling for a conference.See the Hossbach memo in Nov 1937 where he clearly stated the Czechoslovakia was th be smashed in the near future.The problem for the Czechs and the Poles was that France and the USSR could never agree on how to help them in the event of a German attack......
Personally I really doubt that is true.

Poland was much, much more vulnerable - flat terrain with a huge border to defend. Also, the Polish had mostly obsolete equipment.
The Czechs had modern equipment and a mountainous, fortified border.
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Chief Brody View Post
The LW believed they would defeat Fighter Command in the South of England in 4 days.

They believed they would destroy all airfields and a/c production in 4 weeks.

Whatever Hitlerís level of determination to beat us was, they lost for Military reasons.
My understanding of the Battle of Britain is this.

Hitler had told the population of Berlin that their city would never be bombed, and up to that point, no bombs had fallen on London or Berlin. It was seemingly an unwritten protocol at that time that it was not the thing to do, i.e. directly attack non combative targets.

The LW was very successful in knocking out our airfields and destroying our planes on the ground, to the point where we were losing the battle. Then something happened to change all this. It was common practice for both the RAF and the LW to discard any unused bombs on their way back to their home airfield, and these were usually dropped in relatively underpopulated rural areas. On one occasion, a German pilot thought he was over such countryside, when he discarded his bombs, but in fact he was disorientated and was over a part of London in blackout. This was taken taken by Churchill, by design or otherwise as a change of protocol by the enemy, to bomb London, and the decision was taken to bomb Berlin in reciprocation.

Hitler then made the decision to further reciprocate and started bombing London and eventually, other cities in earnest, and this is turn changed the emphasis on focusing on British fighter airfields, and seemingly gave us time to re-group and replace losses. The result was a fightback that we won, and with victory in the air, this greatly lessened the prospect of a land invasion, and so Hitler then looked east and went for his former ally, the USSR.

I cannot remember the source for this account, and if you have some reason to doubt the content and/or the validity of the logic, it would be great to hear it.
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Old 09-11-2017, 09:00 AM
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Fair enough. I suspect you have a greater knowledge of the naval war than me, it's not a side I have read a great deal on. But all these points do seem to come back to quantity rather than quality, which was my original point.

But RE: Jutland. Isn't that the point though? The British suffered heavy losses because of poor leadership and communications. The German fleet didn't seem to have these issues and I think it is generally accepted that in a battle of equal numbers, the Germans would have won.

Was there any naval battle in WW1 or WW2 between GB and Germany where equal numbers squared off? I am not aware of any.
You may be right re training. In general, German military training was superior to ours, certainly in early to mid-war years. We caught up somewhat as the War progressed.

I was stripping out overall training from my point re Jutland, as Jellicoe (solely) took the blame for the losses. He was almost paralysed by the responsibility he had in ensuring Britain remained free from Naval danger and so did not want to risk his fleet by making a mistake. They replaced him with Beattie, a 'Blood and Thunder, Up and at 'em' type. Nothing further happened though as the German High Seas Fleet was not risked again.

I'm not sure better, overall man for man training can be determined as superior by the Germans.

Jutland was the only large scale confrontation. The Battles of Coronel (German win) and Falklands (GB win) were Squadron strength affairs.
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He isnt top class mate

He is a limited player who scores goals with his head
Re Benteke - 14 May 2017
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Old 09-11-2017, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Chief Brody View Post
I would have been amazed if it was even remotely considered.
Sheppey it is, then.
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