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  #101  
Old 09-11-2017, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
If they invaded Sheppey they'd probably have gone home again.
I don;t think anyone wouldve noticed if they had
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  #102  
Old 09-11-2017, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Chief Brody View Post
Not aware of this, no. If there were remonstrations it would have been from the operational commanders of his Squadrons to Goering on the use of their fighters in being tied to increasingly close support of the Bomber Geschwader, as losses mounted. Thus negating their considerable strengths.

The performance of the Bf109e was more than a match for Spitfires, let alone Hurricanes (not Mustangs?). It was superior in several regards (fuel injected, heavier armament, more ammo) and undoubtedly better used tactically.
On the other hand their supposed air superiority fighter the 110 and the iconic Stuka proved to be useless against more maneuverable modern fighters further limiting the LW.

Location was also key, the British fighters had longer in the battle zone than the German ones thereby increasing their effectiveness.

As for tactics as you say in your fist para, Goering's instructions later in the BoB for close fighter support of the bombers pretty much hamstrung them.

On the Hurricane I did once see an interview with a pilot that said he was never worried by 109's as the Hurricane could turn much tighter. Probably just bravado though.
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  #103  
Old 09-11-2017, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
On the other hand their supposed air superiority fighter the 110 and the iconic Stuka proved to be useless against more maneuverable modern fighters further limiting the LW.

Location was also key, the British fighters had longer in the battle zone than the German ones thereby increasing their effectiveness.

As for tactics as you say in your fist para, Goering's instructions later in the BoB for close fighter support of the bombers pretty much hamstrung them.

On the Hurricane I did once see an interview with a pilot that said he was never worried by 109's as the Hurricane could turn much tighter. Probably just bravado though.
Correct re your first three points

Think you'll find the Spitfire was the example, from recollection.
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  #104  
Old 09-11-2017, 12:18 PM
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My biggest 'what if?' from WW2 is what if Pearl Harbor never happened. Say at some point Japan was happy enough with its gains in Korea, Taiwan and Manchuria which pre dated their aggression with the west and managed to find a way to diplomacy with the Americans without going murderously crazy in China.

America would enter the war much later but they would do eventually and not having any commitments in the Pacific they would send over more troops and resources, this could lead to Germany being defeated earlier (due to the extra power) or later (due to the Americans lateness).

The nukes would still be developed and used but maybe on Berlin rather than Hiroshima.

Japan would remain fascist and an ally of Germany so may attack the Soviet east which would mean Stalin would have to divert troops there, helping the German effort in the western Soviet theater. The Americans would still attack Japan in this case but not to the same extent as they did after PH.

After the Nazis are defeated do you have a second campaign to kick the Japanese out of mainland Asia or do you retreat and let them be, if the latter how does that effect the Chinese civil war, the future of the Korean peninsula or even the push for Indian independence (which of course brings about the creation of Pakistan) all of which may be impacted by the presence of Japanese imperialism on the mainland. What does modern day Asia look like if this happens?

Could be the working of a decent alt history novel.

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  #105  
Old 09-11-2017, 12:26 PM
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If the Axis dont attack or declare war on the USA, how does the USA join the war ?
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  #106  
Old 09-11-2017, 12:30 PM
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If the Axis dont attack or declare war on the USA, how does the USA join the war ?
It might take an extra year or two but if it looked like either Hitler or Stalin was going to dominate Europe for the foreseeable future then I think they'd have had little choice but to get involved.
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  #107  
Old 09-11-2017, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Chief Brody View Post
Thanks.

Okay, letís suppose he had the iron will to invade GB.

How could they defeat Fighter Command & the Home Fleet to enable a secure transit and disembarkation on GB soil?

As without the above, they could not successfully invade, determination or not.

From an ideological pov, we know Russia was the enemy. The UK was not in this regard. That did not prevent Germany from putting all its air efforts into our destruction.

Yes valid points.

But given they were engaged on multiple fronts especially Russia then all their efforts were not on UK.

Our airforce was pretty close to collapse - then Hitler turned his attention to bombing London and albeit horrific, gave fighter command and our airfields rest bite. I imagine if Hitler had not been calling the shots then his commanders would have made a better tactical fist of it.

Itís arguable on sea power - by the virtue the Germans kept their real monsters out of harms way, they possibly were not as confident as we think.

I watched a documentary once on Battle of Britain and it basically said the Germans thought we had less planes than we actually produced and we thought they had far more than they actually did - somewhere in the middle the air outcome was fundamental.
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  #108  
Old 09-11-2017, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by DE - Glad All Over View Post
Yes valid points.

But given they were engaged on multiple fronts especially Russia then all their efforts were not on UK.

Our airforce was pretty close to collapse - then Hitler turned his attention to bombing London and albeit horrific, gave fighter command and our airfields rest bite. I imagine if Hitler had not been calling the shots then his commanders would have made a better tactical fist of it.

It’s arguable on sea power - by the virtue the Germans kept their real monsters out of harms way, they possibly were not as confident as we think.

I watched a documentary once on Battle of Britain and it basically said the Germans thought we had less planes than we actually produced and we thought they had far more than they actually did - somewhere in the middle the air outcome was fundamental.
Ta!

Have to largely disagree, here's why;

1) In 1940, Germany was not engaged on multiple fronts. Just the West. All attention on Britain.

2) For the reasons I have detailed re the BofB, the RAF was not near collapse. We were outproducing Germany, retained more experienced pilots following losses, had clear intelligence on their efforts (they did not) and our supply of new pilots was maintained. And we simply shot more of them down, too.

3) Its not arguable re the Navy either. Germany lost some significant numbers of ships in the Norway campaign, prior to the BofB....

The German losses at sea were heavy, with the sinking of one of the Kriegsmarine's two heavy cruisers, two of its six light cruisers, 10 of its 20 destroyers and six U-boats. With several more ships severely damaged, the German surface fleet had only three cruisers and four destroyers operational in the aftermath of the Norwegian Campaign.

They were not capable of defeating the Home Fleet. There was a reason their battleships operated piecemeal and in great secrecy. They knew they could not match the RN overall and would be picked off and destroyed, one by one.

Happy to see evidence to the contrary.
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  #109  
Old 09-11-2017, 02:31 PM
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Ta!



Have to largely disagree, here's why;



1) In 1940, Germany was not engaged on multiple fronts. Just the West. All attention on Britain.



2) For the reasons I have detailed re the BofB, the RAF was not near collapse. We were outproducing Germany, retained more experienced pilots following losses, had clear intelligence on their efforts (they did not) and our supply of new pilots was maintained. And we simply shot more of them down, too.



3) Its not arguable re the Navy either. Germany lost some significant numbers of ships in the Norway campaign, prior to the BofB....



The German losses at sea were heavy, with the sinking of one of the Kriegsmarine's two heavy cruisers, two of its six light cruisers, 10 of its 20 destroyers and six U-boats. With several more ships severely damaged, the German surface fleet had only three cruisers and four destroyers operational in the aftermath of the Norwegian Campaign.



They were not capable of defeating the Home Fleet. There was a reason their battleships operated piecemeal and in great secrecy. They knew they could not match the RN overall and would be picked off and destroyed, one by one.



Happy to see evidence to the contrary.

Good points. I agree on the Navy front (wonít bore you but my Grandad was on Ark Royal and in WW1 involved with Swordfishes).

I canít argue with you on dates around 1940, and obviously all ifs and buts and circumstances of the time.

I think what is over looked is that the UK simply held out long enough for the Americans to join the war - if we had not who knows what a map of the world would now look like.

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  #110  
Old 09-11-2017, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DE - Glad All Over View Post
.

I watched a documentary once on Battle of Britain and it basically said the Germans thought we had less planes than we actually produced and we thought they had far more than they actually did - somewhere in the middle the air outcome was fundamental.
I have the idea that, while both sides had a fair idea of how many squadrons the other had, neither realised RAF squadrons were bigger ! (12-16 vs 9-12 planes)
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  #111  
Old 09-11-2017, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
On the other hand their supposed air superiority fighter the 110 and the iconic Stuka proved to be useless against more maneuverable modern fighters further limiting the LW.

Location was also key, the British fighters had longer in the battle zone than the German ones thereby increasing their effectiveness.

As for tactics as you say in your fist para, Goering's instructions later in the BoB for close fighter support of the bombers pretty much hamstrung them.

On the Hurricane I did once see an interview with a pilot that said he was never worried by 109's as the Hurricane could turn much tighter. Probably just bravado though.
The Stuka was never designed as an air superiority fighter? It was a dive bomber/ground attack aircraft.
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  #112  
Old 09-11-2017, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DE - Glad All Over View Post
Good points. I agree on the Navy front (wonít bore you but my Grandad was on Ark Royal and in WW1 involved with Swordfishes).

I canít argue with you on dates around 1940, and obviously all ifs and buts and circumstances of the time.

I think what is over looked is that the UK simply held out long enough for the Americans to join the war - if we had not who knows what a map of the world would now look like.

Bet you play a good game of RISK

Thanks!

The Germans turned their attention East (via Balkans) in 1941, six months after the finish of the BofB. So, no multiple front.

Happy to be bored re your GF. PM me if you want.

Yes, I enjoy a game of Risk! :-)
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  #113  
Old 09-11-2017, 02:54 PM
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The Stuka was never designed as an air superiority fighter? It was a dive bomber/ground attack aircraft.

I think Skint was referring to the Bf110c
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  #114  
Old 09-11-2017, 03:04 PM
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Thanks!

The Germans turned their attention East (via Balkans) in 1941, six months after the finish of the BofB. So, no multiple front.

Happy to be bored re your GF. PM me if you want.

Yes, I enjoy a game of Risk! :-)
Hadn't the Luftwaffe started supporting the Italian airforce in the med in 1940? (obviously a small diversion of resources but could have an impact)
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Old 09-11-2017, 03:20 PM
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Tougher than France?
Much tougher than France.

Poland was tougher than France IMO (if you take out the combined contributions of the BEF, Dutch and Belgians).

I believe the Germans used twice as much ammunition in the Polish campaign compared to the French campaign.
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  #116  
Old 09-11-2017, 03:48 PM
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Hadn't the Luftwaffe started supporting the Italian airforce in the med in 1940? (obviously a small diversion of resources but could have an impact)
Not sure. The Italian airforce attacked us during the BofB though!

Edit - can't see that the Germans supported any med action before 1941.

So, in summary, the impact was support to the Luftwaffe, not a reduction in their strength. ;-)
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  #117  
Old 09-11-2017, 03:52 PM
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Perhaps we should be talking about how the US asset stripped the UK prior to their direct involvement in the war including all our gold reserves.

Some people might call this profiteering.
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Old 09-11-2017, 03:56 PM
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Perhaps we should be talking about how the US asset stripped the UK prior to their direct involvement in the war including all our gold reserves.

Some people might call this profiteering.
Yes, an interesting element of the War I know little about.
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  #119  
Old 09-11-2017, 03:57 PM
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The German losses at sea were heavy, with the sinking of one of the Kriegsmarine's two heavy cruisers, two of its six light cruisers, 10 of its 20 destroyers and six U-boats. With several more ships severely damaged, the German surface fleet had only three cruisers and four destroyers operational in the aftermath of the Norwegian Campaign.

They were not capable of defeating the Home Fleet. There was a reason their battleships operated piecemeal and in great secrecy. They knew they could not match the RN overall and would be picked off and destroyed, one by one.

Happy to see evidence to the contrary.
U-boats. You never mention them Chief. Would they have swayed any naval engagements in favor of the Kriegsmarine. My one doubt is the size of the u boat fleet in 1940. Maybe to small to have a really significant effect?
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  #120  
Old 09-11-2017, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
Perhaps we should be talking about how the US asset stripped the UK prior to their direct involvement in the war including all our gold reserves.

Some people might call this profiteering.
Additionally, Lend-Lease cost a fortune. IIRC the UK didn't finish paying for Lend-Lease until the late 70's or mid 80's. I also seem to remember that the UK was the only country to repay the US in full (although there was a hiatus during the early 70's).

EDIT: final payment was 2006!!
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