Article 50 [not just another Brexit thread]

[willcpfc]

Originally Posted by SE25 exile

After May's Chequers cabinet meeting, it is being reported that she now thinks that a deal outside the single market that is all the poorer with tariff barriers etc, for our trade, is a price worth paying, to control EU immigration.

Apparently, the view at the meeting was that we need a return to "Victorian energy" to achieve a great future for Britain.

Well there is certainly plenty of Victorian bigotry around these days.

So far from May there has been plenty of hot air and words, but very little action and she is now sounding more like Cameron with her "pledges". Her statement today means she has given up on an effective trade deal with the EU for Britain, and is preparing business to shoulder the future burden of that failure under the guise of giving the foreigner haters what they want.

However, as Home Secretary, she also failed to control non EU immigration, so why should we think she can do any better with the EU. It seems we are destined to get the worst of both worlds.

Brexit means Brexit. Huzzah!

[rhino_mik]

Originally Posted by Biggineagle

May talking sense for a change whatever next ?? That will please us #Brexiteers.

Bigoteers.

[willcpfc]

Originally Posted by rhino_mik

Bigoteers.

Winnereers.

52%eers.

[SE25 exile]

Originally Posted by willcpfc

Brexit means Brexit. Huzzah!

Why don't you simply address the points in her reported stance on our future relationship with the EU and immigration, in my post. You have done the "Brexit is Brexit" thing to death. As I said in response to your last tiresome pasted post we need now to move on from your "victory". That is all now last season.

[willcpfc]

Originally Posted by SE25 exile

Why don't you simply address the points in her reported stance on our future relationship with the EU and immigration, in my post. You have done the "Brexit is Brexit" thing to death. As I said in response to your last tiresome pasted post we need now to move on from your "victory". That is all now last season.

We voted to leave the European Union. That to my mind means totally resetting our relationship. The single market and free movement nonsense are not compatible with leaving.

What should our relationship with the EU become?

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Something along those lines, while we redraw our relationships with the rest of the world.

[Heb 7:4]

Originally Posted by willcpfc

We voted to leave the European Union. That to my mind means totally resetting our relationship. The single market and free movement nonsense are not compatible with leaving.

What should our relationship with the EU become?

To view the link you have to Register or Login


Something along those lines, while we redraw our relationships with the rest of the world.

Access to the single market was explicitly promised by the Leave campaign. It cannot be rescinded now.

[SE25 exile]

Originally Posted by willcpfc

We voted to leave the European Union.

Which has now been fully established and no longer needs to be mentioned

That to my mind means totally resetting our relationship.

Well we have no choice. We now have to get the best for Britain. especially with the EU, as they are currently our largest trading partner.

The single market and free movement nonsense are not compatible with leaving.

That is not a conclusion backed up by any hard evidence. It is your opinion only.

What should our relationship with the EU become?

To view the link you have to Register or Login

Something along those lines, while we redraw our relationships with the rest of the world.

May has said she wants a bespoke and unique deal for Britain, not any other country's existing model. The EU has said she can't cherry pick the good stuff and not take the rest. Any new agreement is going to take an awful long time to resolve under these two positions.

By not invoking A50 just yet, she has minimised the shorter term damage, but once she does do this, then after two years we shall be trading under WTO conditions, and that is bad for Britain.

[SE25 exile]

Originally Posted by Heb 7:4

Access to the single market was explicitly promised by the Leave campaign. It cannot be rescinded now.

If you read the front pages today, May has now ruled that out.

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[Biggineagle]

Originally Posted by Heb 7:4

Access to the single market was explicitly promised by the Leave campaign. It cannot be rescinded now.

Ya think ??

[Heb 7:4]

Originally Posted by Biggineagle

Ya think ??

I think if a clear promise like that can be rescinded, then the referendum is clearly invalid

[mik59]

It remains a worry that so much of the talk is about trade and not about Article 50 which has nothing to do with any future trade deal. I hope May's government is actually looking hard at what they need to do on the long list of actual issues they'll need to grapple with, from next year. Time is running out.

[Oisin]

Originally Posted by mik59

It remains a worry that so much of the talk is about trade and not about Article 50 which has nothing to do with any future trade deal. I hope May's government is actually looking hard at what they need to do on the long list of actual issues they'll need to grapple with, from next year. Time is running out.

That's because a significant number of the Cabinet are living on a fantasy island where people believe that bilateral trade deals can not only compensate for any losses from leaving the common market but actually these deals will surpass them in economic value. It isn't politically or economically credible at any level (and for good measure institutionally we can't do it either). That's what so worrying.

You'd have expected the government's economic policy to be looking at productivity, R&D, highlighting looking for areas where prospects for FDI have increased, looking for areas where the regulation could be changed etc. but the whole outlook is on trade.

As for Article 50, they are nowhere as they haven't agreed what they want the end point to be
1. Brexit mean Brexit - well a tautology
2. Britain needs a unique deal - there is no off the shelf deal
3. There will be controls on the number of people who want to come from the EU - and they accept that means leaving the common market
4. But there will be a positive outcome for people who trade with the EU in goods and services - which means we won't be fully leaving the common market

There is a trade off between economic well being and immigration. The government needs to understand where it sees that trade off, what sectors it will protect, and how it sees future relations with the EU. It is nowhere close

[willcpfc]

Loving the Remainiacs scratching about trying to be negative.

[Maz]

Thanks for letting us know.

[willcpfc]

Originally Posted by Maz

Thanks for letting us know.

Well you do all come across as longing for failure. But Remainiacs always liked talking the country down - it formed a big part of your argument.

[Oisin]

There's a piece in the FT comment today from a former director-general of the Council of the European Union’s Legal Service in which he claims Article 50 is legally reversible. The comments are more interesting than the piece actually, plenty of senior lawyers are FT subscribers.

If the Government was smart it would seek legal clarification on that before triggering Article 50, it gives it a much stronger negotiating position.

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[eagleborn]

Originally Posted by Oisin

There's a piece in the FT comment today from a former director-general of the Council of the European Union’s Legal Service in which he claims Article 50 is legally reversible. The comments are more interesting than the piece actually, plenty of senior lawyers are FT subscribers.

If the Government was smart it would seek legal clarification on that before triggering Article 50, it gives it a much stronger negotiating position.

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It's an interesting argument raised there, in any event. However, I don't think it raises anything new. Ultimately the wording of Article 50 is unclear and can be construed in a number of manners. I ultimately think that there will be a number of legal challenges in relation to whatever plan of action the government finally settles on.

The exact way in which Article 50 is enacted may well come down to a decision in the Supreme Court and/or ECJ as to the proper interpretation of the Article. There will be consideration over whether Parliament needs to "approve" the referendum result, whether it is possible to back out once Article 50 has been invoked, and so on.

These are all arguments which can be properly argued due to the unclear nature of the drafting and the lack of previous experience on this. There are some very good lawyers out there who will be able to make some very compelling arguments one way or the other.

Of course, Mat and Will on here will continue with their baseless and repetitive arguments that Brexit means Brexit, despite being clueless as to the meaning of that.

[willcpfc]

Originally Posted by eagleborn

It's an interesting argument raised there, in any event. However, I don't think it raises anything new. Ultimately the wording of Article 50 is unclear and can be construed in a number of manners. I ultimately think that there will be a number of legal challenges in relation to whatever plan of action the government finally settles on.

The exact way in which Article 50 is enacted may well come down to a decision in the Supreme Court and/or ECJ as to the proper interpretation of the Article. There will be consideration over whether Parliament needs to "approve" the referendum result, whether it is possible to back out once Article 50 has been invoked, and so on.

These are all arguments which can be properly argued due to the unclear nature of the drafting and the lack of previous experience on this. There are some very good lawyers out there who will be able to make some very compelling arguments one way or the other.

Of course, Mat and Will on here will continue with their baseless and repetitive arguments that Brexit means Brexit, despite being clueless as to the meaning of that.

You Remainiacs love any little whiff of Brexit being somehow.....prevented. I call it being a bad loser. Brexit does mean Brexit, so enjoy it hahaha defeated 48%er........

[willcpfc]

Parliament can stop it! Lawyers can stop it! Another referendum can stop it! The EU can stop it! Timmy Farron, Owen Smith and David Lammy can stop it!

Gggrrrr only 52% wanted to leave. They cannot get away with it.


I know.....who Remainiacs gonna call? Captain Euro.

[rhino_mik]

^ QED from the fantasist.