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  #241  
Old 02-10-2016, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Would be interesting to know the views on the 48.1% who voted to remain too. Do they all agree with the current arrangements around free movement and free trade. I wonder how many only voted to remain reluctantly because they were worried about their jobs or nervous of change?
Yourself included NKE? Many remoaners not agree with single market or want FOM, bit of a stupid post from maz.
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  #242  
Old 02-10-2016, 10:28 AM
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The PM's idea of a "great repeal bill" needs more clarity on legal and constitutional issues. Some EU law is simply directly applicable without implementing legislation and some is actually given operational force by judges because England has a common law system, so I'm unsure how one single Parliamentary act covers all that. May focused on workers' rights which is welcome but we need to hear more about how other key areas will be covered, such as rules regulating the City. Then there is the question of the process for the review of which rules will be kept, and domesticated, and which not, and who decides. Will there be sufficient Parliamentary scrutiny by our elected representatives?
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  #243  
Old 02-10-2016, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
The PM's idea of a "great repeal bill" needs more clarity on legal and constitutional issues. Some EU law is simply directly applicable without implementing legislation and some is actually given operational force by judges because England has a common law system, so I'm unsure how one single Parliamentary act covers all that. May focused on workers' rights which is welcome but we need to hear more about how other key areas will be covered, such as rules regulating the City. Then there is the question of the process for the review of which rules will be kept, and domesticated, and which not, and who decides. Will there be sufficient Parliamentary scrutiny by our elected representatives?
it's certainly weird. It cannot see how it would work unless it doesn't take effect until we actually leave.
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  #244  
Old 02-10-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Biggineagle View Post
Yourself included NKE? Many remoaners not agree with single market or want FOM, bit of a stupid post from maz.
I took a long time to make my mind up but once I did I came down a firm 60-40 in favour of remain. I dislike being told what to do by Brussels and I'm not keen on committee management where you end up compromising to get agreement from 27 other countries. I feel we are missing out on the wide world and I am nervous about the idea of giving free movement to countries in Europe whilst our relatives from the Commonwealth don't have that right. However, we are where we are. A short term economic shock will hurt us at the wrong moment. Falling interest rates are costing people their defined benefit schemes and increasing trade barriers with our neighbours is the wrong way to go. Lower growth will cost jobs and mean tax rises somewhere. I'd prefer free movement but for the government to make it work by taxing the City and expensive homes to build more for our young people. We also need to give priority for vocational training for our young people and force employers to recruit and train the young. If the last point upsets the EU so be it.
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  #245  
Old 02-10-2016, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
it's certainly weird. It cannot see how it would work unless it doesn't take effect until we actually leave.
I've also just remembered that some EU matters will be covered by devolved powers so Westminster doesn't have the right to decide on those.
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  #246  
Old 02-10-2016, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
Yes some indeed. Those that have a dislike of foreigners.

It is the case by the way, as will be revealed with a "hard" Brexit, whenever that happens.

To suggest that a basic dislike of foreigners is behind it is really just an attempt to avoid the real issues.
Outside of the overcrowding argument, it is more a question of being fearful of the impact of foreign cultures and other issues associated with immigrants, on the country.
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  #247  
Old 02-10-2016, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
I've also just remembered that some EU matters will be covered by devolved powers so Westminster doesn't have the right to decide on those.
Oh well, we have all the time in the world to iron out the creases. By 2019 we should be freed from the EU, and that is what matters most.
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  #248  
Old 02-10-2016, 12:23 PM
Kidofwonder Kidofwonder is offline
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Most people who voted leave did so because they intrinsically think, white and British is better than anything else. Lets not pretend that's not the case. Believing your country is the best and people who were born in your country are the best, is racism.

I'm not delegitimising anyone's right to vote brexit or calling for a second ref, just saying at least acknowledge your bias.
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  #249  
Old 02-10-2016, 12:32 PM
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Most people who voted leave did so because they intrinsically think, white and British is better than anything else. Lets not pretend that's not the case. Believing your country is the best and people who were born in your country are the best, is racism.

Amen to that although it is being English that is better than anything else, not British.
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  #250  
Old 02-10-2016, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
Most people who voted leave did so because they intrinsically think, white and British is better than anything else. Lets not pretend that's not the case. Believing your country is the best and people who were born in your country are the best, is racism.

I'm not delegitimising anyone's right to vote brexit or calling for a second ref, just saying at least acknowledge your bias.
So you are saying that most people who voted to leave were racist? I think most voted to leave because at its simplest they felt they were paying for something and didn't see the benefits. Yes there would have been some racists.
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  #251  
Old 02-10-2016, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
Most people who voted leave did so because they intrinsically think, white and British is better than anything else. Lets not pretend that's not the case. Believing your country is the best and people who were born in your country are the best, is racism.
lol You are quite mad.
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  #252  
Old 02-10-2016, 12:49 PM
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So you are saying that most people who voted to leave were racist? I think most voted to leave because at its simplest they felt they were paying for something and didn't see the benefits. Yes there would have been some racists.
There was a poll today somewhere that said 4/10 would rather have closed borders than access to the single market or any eu trade. Whilst that's not most or the majority, it's clearly a massive motivating factor.

I'm not placing moral judgement on people for holding a racist pov, i'm just saying there should be an open acknowledgement that citizenship and the idea of nation is a construct of historical tropes rather than anything deeply held. It's an idea. National identity, sovereignty, all of these things are utterly meaningless in the abstract sense, but having an 'othered' group to blame structural societal problems on rather than actually acknowledging there needs to be hard choices made by the government economically.

I'm not talking about aggressive active racism, i'm talking about passive bias.
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  #253  
Old 02-10-2016, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
There was a poll today somewhere that said 4/10 would rather have closed borders than access to the single market or any eu trade. Whilst that's not most or the majority, it's clearly a massive motivating factor.

I'm not placing moral judgement on people for holding a racist pov, i'm just saying there should be an open acknowledgement that citizenship and the idea of nation is a construct of historical tropes rather than anything deeply held. It's an idea. National identity, sovereignty, all of these things are utterly meaningless in the abstract sense, but having an 'othered' group to blame structural societal problems on rather than actually acknowledging there needs to be hard choices made by the government economically.

I'm not talking about aggressive active racism, i'm talking about passive bias.

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  #254  
Old 02-10-2016, 12:54 PM
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The left blame the rich, the right blame the migrants, somehow the far left and the far right both blame those who are jewish rather than acknowledge that structually things are going wrong.
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  #255  
Old 02-10-2016, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Transfer View Post
To suggest that a basic dislike of foreigners is behind it is really just an attempt to avoid the real issues.
Outside of the overcrowding argument, it is more a question of being fearful of the impact of foreign cultures and other issues associated with immigrants, on the country.
Which is a racist pov
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  #256  
Old 02-10-2016, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
There was a poll today somewhere that said 4/10 would rather have closed borders than access to the single market or any eu trade. Whilst that's not most or the majority, it's clearly a massive motivating factor.

I'm not placing moral judgement on people for holding a racist pov, i'm just saying there should be an open acknowledgement that citizenship and the idea of nation is a construct of historical tropes rather than anything deeply held. It's an idea. National identity, sovereignty, all of these things are utterly meaningless in the abstract sense, but having an 'othered' group to blame structural societal problems on rather than actually acknowledging there needs to be hard choices made by the government economically.

I'm not talking about aggressive active racism, i'm talking about passive bias.
Supporting reduced immigration is not necessarily racist. By the way, do you agree with the principle of open migration from EU countries and not from the Commonwealth? Or do you think there should be equality there.
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  #257  
Old 02-10-2016, 01:02 PM
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So you are saying that most people who voted to leave were racist? I think most voted to leave because at its simplest they felt they were paying for something and didn't see the benefits. Yes there would have been some racists.
If the benefits had been spelt out then they might have realised we were better in than out. I think the major concern for both sides was the level of immigration. That doesn't make everyone racist.
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  #258  
Old 02-10-2016, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
There was a poll today somewhere that said 4/10 would rather have closed borders than access to the single market or any eu trade. Whilst that's not most or the majority, it's clearly a massive motivating factor.

I'm not placing moral judgement on people for holding a racist pov, i'm just saying there should be an open acknowledgement that citizenship and the idea of nation is a construct of historical tropes rather than anything deeply held. It's an idea. National identity, sovereignty, all of these things are utterly meaningless in the abstract sense, but having an 'othered' group to blame structural societal problems on rather than actually acknowledging there needs to be hard choices made by the government economically.

I'm not talking about aggressive active racism, i'm talking about passive bias.
Do you know what these words mean?
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  #259  
Old 02-10-2016, 01:07 PM
Kidofwonder Kidofwonder is offline
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Supporting reduced immigration is not necessarily racist. By the way, do you agree with the principle of open migration from EU countries and not from the Commonwealth? Or do you think there should be equality there.
I don't think it is racist to discuss immigration necesarilly, just that a lot of the arguments made against immigration are racist. I dont realy believe in the commonwealth as an entity, its very existence is problematic, given its deeply tied nature to colonialism.

If Eu and commonwealth migration is regulated in the same way, why shouldnt there be parity?
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:08 PM
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Which is a racist pov
I could engage in a philosophical and factual debate as to the invalidity of that statement but I suspect I would be wasting my time.
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