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    #21
    I'm most probably get shot down for this and no I wasn't there at Hillsborough.

    25+ years ago was in the height of the hooligan era.We were in a different time warp back then,pissed up fans was the norm,worse than now,looking back,we were treated like crap because we were crap.the scousers were no different.

    The OB were no better than us then,bribes,dodgy dealing,twisting the truth,making up lies,some of this has come out in the Hillsborough report.

    The scouse that rushed the gates at the last min to get in,so many would have been pissed,the OB didnt really give a sheet about hooligans (not saying they all were pissed) and just let em in.

    Then the dreadful happened and 96 innocent died and they were innocent,they got in early,got to the front as we used to do then.

    Of course the OB did wrong but I dont see any scouse saying if we hadn't rushed the gates then the it wouldn't have happened.The scouse are putting all the blame on the OB and nothing on themselves.

    Maybe I've got this all wrong.

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      #22
      Originally posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
      If you look at the pictures yesterday I noticed a banner 21+96, a little research shows it relates to Olympiacos whose fans suffered a similar tradegy where 21 fans lost their lives. I have not seen all the pictures so am unaware whether there was any mention of the 39 killed at Heysel
      It is more the point that Liverpool supporters on the whole were responsible for the deaths of 39 innocent football fans at Heysel in 1985 and that has not been raised in the context of the current rememberance. I thought it would at least be appropriate to acknowledge that event this week.

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        #23
        I can't recall if anything was done before the start of the semi-final, but that was due to getting in the ground right on kick-off, thanks to the friendly West Midlands Police.

        But overall it wasn't, and couldn't be given it was only a year, the complete sea change all-seater stadiums brought in. It was more a cosmetic exercise of taking down the fences and the sentimental aspect reported in the media of another Liverpool FA cup semi-final a year after Hillsborough. I do recall being halfway up the Holte end next to the Liverpool fans and Palace fans squashing their faces against the mesh fencing, it was intended to wind them up, and it worked. Before anyone jumps down my throat on writing that I would wager any opposition supporters would of done the same at the time in the same place, thats how football was those days.
        © SOUTH LONDON PRODUCTIONS

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIMGb0p9hrQ

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          #24
          Originally posted by aquickgame2 View Post
          I'm most probably get shot down for this and no I wasn't there at Hillsborough.

          25+ years ago was in the height of the hooligan era.We were in a different time warp back then,pissed up fans was the norm,worse than now,looking back,we were treated like crap because we were crap.the scousers were no different.

          The OB were no better than us then,bribes,dodgy dealing,twisting the truth,making up lies,some of this has come out in the Hillsborough report.

          The scouse that rushed the gates at the last min to get in,so many would have been pissed,the OB didnt really give a sheet about hooligans (not saying they all were pissed) and just let em in.

          Then the dreadful happened and 96 innocent died and they were innocent,they got in early,got to the front as we used to do then.

          Of course the OB did wrong but I dont see any scouse saying if we hadn't rushed the gates then the it wouldn't have happened.The scouse are putting all the blame on the OB and nothing on themselves.

          Maybe I've got this all wrong.
          Rushed the gates? The gates were opened to let the fans through.
          12BET.COM

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            #25
            Originally posted by Diehard View Post
            The thing that strikes me about Hillsborough is still the denial that all parties involved are still in. Anyone who went to big games in those days knows that a number of fans would have been drinking, behave aggressively and make life difficult for others and the authorities. Equally it was the norm for the police to be intransigent, unhelpful and darn right provocactive when it came to football matches. There won't be many Palace fans from those days who won't have had a scary time time in a overcrowded concourse somewhere. The tragedy is that 96 innocents died due to the combined actions of fans and police alike. It was an accident waiting to happen.
            I dont why you say this the fans played no role in it what so ever. Even the Taylor report said that. You should strike this from your memory. The fans were not to blame it was entirely the Police responsibility. The ground didnt even have a safety certificate.

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              #26
              Originally posted by the drexciyan View Post
              I do recall being halfway up the Holte end next to the Liverpool fans and Palace fans squashing their faces against the mesh fencing, it was intended to wind them up, and it worked. Before anyone jumps down my throat on writing that I would wager any opposition supporters would of done the same at the time in the same place, thats how football was those days.
              That is pretty disgusting though and not something I would expect from our fans.I stood very near to the back and there was the usual banter back and forth as the goals went in.As the match finished the Liverpool fans turned and applauded and shook hands across the gap.

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                #27
                Originally posted by PalaceBhoy View Post
                Rushed the gates? The gates were opened to let the fans through.
                Exactly. Fans were crushed outside because there was little or no Policing. Duckenfeld who was in charge had never done a major event.

                I understand how the slandering of fans still persists but its just lies. The cover up has been exposed yet for some they cant not except the powers that be were wrong.

                Its very sad that even today those lies persist.

                Comment


                  #28
                  My take on Hillsborough is that huge crowds have a life and energy of their own and that the authorities have to plan to manage that crowd.

                  It's the same if you travel by tube in London at rush hour...eg you can be shut out the tube at Victoria before the platform becomes overcrowded, but no one would say the commuters are hooligans and drunks.

                  The police and those in charge of the crowd at Hillsborough must therefore take the blame for allowing the horrendous overcrowding in those pens. It was inevitable that many would arrive late and some a bit boozy.....you have to plan for that and manage the situation. Even if it means holding back the crowd further back in the streets (think how the Wembley police do that on the approaches to their train stations). I do believe the same tragedy could easily have happened to any well-supported club at that time, so I have every sympathy with the Liverpool fans and families.

                  The historical behaviour of football hooligans did contribute to the confrontational relationship with police etc, and vice versa. This also led to the fences becoming viewed as necessary. So football fans aren't entirely innocent for creating the ingredients for this tragedy.

                  But that doesn't make the 96 individuals guilty of anything at all and their families deserve the justice they seek.

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                    #29
                    Watch this please.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Originally posted by cdm61 View Post
                      I dont why you say this the fans played no role in it what so ever. Even the Taylor report said that. You should strike this from your memory. The fans were not to blame it was entirely the Police responsibility. The ground didnt even have a safety certificate.
                      There were many other games I attended where pissed up fans were rushing and pushing to get in. Similarly there are some very hairy stories of being lifted off your feet in the concourses under a terrace, under the Arsenal Clock End I got the air nearly crushed out of me trying to leave the stadium once. Football culture and stadium design were not the best partners in the 70s and 80s.
                      © SOUTH LONDON PRODUCTIONS

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIMGb0p9hrQ

                      Comment


                        #31
                        Originally posted by the drexciyan View Post
                        There were many other games I attended where pissed up fans were rushing and pushing to get in. Similarly there are some very hairy stories of being lifted off your feet in the concourses under a terrace, under the Arsenal Clock End I got the air nearly crushed out of me trying to leave the stadium once. Football culture and stadium design were not the best partners in the 70s and 80s.
                        But there were no pissed up fans at Hillsborough - its a myth - watch the Panorama programme.

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                          #32
                          Despite Hillsborough if I recall correctly Palace fans were rather crushed into cages at Cambridge for the 1/4 final in 1990, not much had changed in those 12 months. It was only when government money became available and then TV fees increased that many clubs upgraded their grounds.

                          On the day of the Ibrox disaster - again a major loss of death that football stadium that is often forgotten - Palace were playing Chelsea at Selhurst and the perimeter fence at the Whitehorse Lane end collapsed with the crush (just under 50,000 at selhurst that day) had there been fences then we would have seen a lot of casualties.

                          As for Heysel I believe the reason this is overlooked is down to and Uefa the Belgium FA and Government who should have faced many charges covering up the truth. Not least the fact that the ground was not in a fit state to hold a match of this size. Poor crowd segregation and the disgraceful decision not to abandon the game among many issues.

                          There were also stories at the time that some of the “Liverpool” fans who started the fighting which caused the crush were not Liverpool fans but a group of drunk British Army guys who had picked up tickets and turned up just for a fight. However that story seems to have been lost in the mists of time. It may have course been a Sun style “Drunk Liverpool fans” story we saw after Hillsborough.

                          It also has to be said that the Juventus fans that night were not innocent, I am sure many will remember the images of the guy on the pitch who appeared to be brandishing a gun at the other end of the stadium. Next year is the 30th anniversary, it will be interesting to see how this will be treated
                          Last edited by Percy Dalton; 16-04-2014, 08:13 AM.
                          Peanuts only a Joey a bag.

                          "Why go to learn the words of fools?" Steve Marriott/Ronnie Lane

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                            #33
                            Good to see the lies propagated by the police are still repeated as fact then. Why did the Prime Minister apologise on behalf of the then government? Think about it.
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                              #34
                              Interesting piece about Heysel from last year on theanfieldwrap.com by Oliver Kay (original article from the Times)

                              NOW that the lies, the smears and cruel myths about the Hillsborough disaster have been exposed once and for all, those who clung to them out of warped tribalism have but one straw left to clutch. “What about justice for Heysel?”, they plead. “What about the truth of what happened there?”
                              Actually, they might have a point, even if they raise it out of malice rather than consideration for the bereaved. The publication – and belated national acceptance – of the real truth about Hillsborough has been a source of great vindication for all who were affected by that tragedy. But questions undoubtedly remain about the Heysel Stadium disaster, in which 39 spectators – 32 from Italy, four from Belgium, two from France, one from Northern Ireland – were killed in a stampede before the 1985 European Cup final between Liverpool and Juventus.
                              Those bereaved and outraged by Hillsborough have fought to keep their campaign for justice alive and been entirely vindicated for doing so. By contrast, Heysel remains the tragedy that dares not speak its name. So let us talk about it. Let us state a few of the facts about whether justice was done.
                              We all know that English football, collectively, was punished, with clubs excluded from Uefa competition. Liverpool immediately withdrew, in disgrace, from the next season’s Uefa Cup. Within hours the FA, under pressure from the government, announced that no English club would play in the following season’s Uefa competition – and that of course included Everton, denied a tilt at the European Cup, and Norwich City, denied a first ever European campaign. Two days later Uefa announced an indefinite ban on English clubs. It ended up at five years, with Liverpool serving a sixth as punishment for their supporters’ behaviour at Heysel.
                              This was not a knee-jerk reaction to a one-off night of mayhem. This – both the sanction and, it could be argued, the widespread loss of life – had been coming. Heysel was the disgraceful culmination of more than a decade of ugly incidents involving English supporters on their European travels: Tottenham Hotspur in Rotterdam in 1974 and 1983, Leeds United in Paris in 1975, Manchester United in St Etienne in 1977, the national team in Basle in 1981 and so on until the spiral of moronic violence reached its tragic conclusion – logical in one sense, crazy in all others – in Brussels.
                              As to whether individuals were brought to account, 27 arrests were made on suspicion of manslaughter and 26 men were charged. (These, incidentally, do not tend to be described as Liverpool supporters – in part because of claims at the time from John Smith, the club’s chairman, and two Merseyside councilors that National Front members from London had been responsible. There are many sensitive issues here, but let us not pussyfoot over this one. As Tony Evans, football editor of The Times and author of Far Foreign Land, a brilliant book about his experiences following Liverpool at Heysel and all over Europe, put it: “It was a red herring. Hooligans from the far right would not have been welcome.”)
                              The prosecutions stemmed from television camera footage of the charge – the third such charge in a matter of minutes – that led directly to the deaths of those 39 innocent spectators. There are dozens of points that are usually offered to explain the context, not least over ticketing, segregation and a crumbling stadium, but the context does not begin to excuse what happened. No amount of context ever could.
                              Those stampedes might have been considered standard terrace fare at the time, a token act of territorialism and intimidation, but it led innocent fans to flee in terror. Some tried to climb a wall to escape. The wall crumbled. Thirty-nine people were crushed to death. The world was appalled. Turin went into mourning. Liverpool and their supporters were left to live with what they know, 27 years later, to be an indelible stain.
                              As for “justice”, an initial inquiry by Marina Coppieters, a leading Belgian judge, found after 18 months that the police and the authorities, in addition to Liverpool supporters, should face charges. Quite apart from the hooliganism, ticketing arrangements and police strategy and responses were criticised. By this stage, English supporters were regarded across Europe as such animals that shock was expressed at how the authorities had played into their hands.
                              There was bewilderment, too, at the choice of stadium. And where have you heard that before? Uefa chose a ground that had been built in the 1920s and condemned in the early 1980s for failing to meet modern safety standards, which were far from stringent. Evans recalls that the outer wall, made of cinder block, was decaying, that he was not required to show his ticket and that, long before the stampede, he saw a crash barrier in front of him crumble.
                              Jacques Georges, the Uefa president at the time, and Hans Bangerter, his general secretary, were threatened with imprisonment but eventually given conditional discharges. Albert Roosens, the former secretary-general of the Belgian Football Union (BFU), was given a six-month suspended prison sentence for “regrettable negligence” with regard to ticketing arrangements. So was gendarme captain Johan Mahieu, who was in charge of the policing the stands at Heysel. “He made fundamental errors,” Pierre Verlynde, the judge, said. “He was far too passive. I find his negligence extraordinary.”
                              In 1989, after a five-month trial in Brussels, 14 of the 26 Liverpool supporters who stood trial were found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and given a three-year prison sentence, suspended for 18 months, and each ended up serving about a year in total in behind bars. The remaining ten defendants were acquitted of manslaughter, but some had their £2,000 bail money confiscated, having been absent for part of the trial. And civil damages estimated at more than £5million were provisionally awarded to families of the Heysel victims against the convicted fans and the BFU.
                              But you never hear of this because the tragedy is taboo. It was only brought into the open when Liverpool and Juventus were drawn together in the Champions League quarter-final in 2005, at which point the Merseyside club, after consultation with their Italian counterparts, announced it would be a game of “friendship”. Before the first leg at Anfield, Liverpool supporters held up a mosaic to form the word “amicizia”. Some of the visiting Juventus fans applauded. Most, it seemed, turned their backs in disgust. And while the rejection of the olive branch met with a little consternation on Merseyside, Liverpool’s supporters know all too well about the type of apology that comes too late, brought by events, to sound truly sincere.
                              Heysel is an unspeakably awkward subject for Liverpool – perhaps more, perhaps less, for the anguish the club and the city endured four years later at Hillsborough. It is a black mark and it will be there forever. Supporters of rival teams chant “Murderers” and the Liverpool fans have little response. On one infamous occasion at Goodison Park in 2008, the away fans responded by singing “2-0 to the Murderers”. I know that this was somewhere between a knee-jerk response and an attempt to “reclaim” that offensive description, but it sounded awful. Were they listening in Turin? You would hope not.
                              For many years, Liverpool ’s response to Heysel was woefully inadequate. I was shown a copy of the club’s official yearbook for 1985/86. There were two articles about the tragedy on page three, but they were both of the “Let’s put this behind us, improve the matchday Anfield atmosphere and look to restore the club’s good name” variety. There was no direct reference to what had happened. There was no hint of an apology. Later there was a round-up of the previous European Cup campaign, in which 1985/86 was identified as a “watershed” because it would be Liverpool ’s last for some time.
                              Over time, there was a recognition that more – much more – needed to be done. In 2000 the city of Liverpool officially commemorated the anniversary of Heysel for the first time – on the suggestion, incidentally, of Peter Millea, the chairman of Liverpool City Council’s Hillsborough disaster working party.
                              They do at least now have a memorial plaque at Anfield, they do have extensive coverage of the tragedy on their official website and they do pay tribute on May 30 every year, even if it took far too long for the club to recognise the tragedy and the stain it had left — not unlike Sheffield Wednesday with Hillsborough, although the circumstances there involved appalling failures at executive level.
                              Heysel is a huge stain on Liverpool ’s history. It is undeniable. And yet none of this diminishes the club’s or the supporters’ right to grieve or to campaign or to express anger over what happened in Sheffield four years later.
                              One real mystery surrounding Heysel is that the tragedy is even more of a taboo in Turin.
                              Go on to the Italian club’s official website in search of a tribute and you will struggle to find anything beyond 106 words within a 645-word article called “Juventus wins everything”, a tribute to their successes in the 1970s and 1980s.
                              Of the club’s first European Cup triumph in 1985, it says: “The long-awaited success in Europe ’s highest accolade was tainted with sadness” … “Something unexplainable happened …. and 39 innocent victims lost their lives. Football, from that moment, would never be the same again.” … “It’s a joyless success, but the victory enabled the Bianconeri to fly to Tokyo in winter to play the Intercontinental Cup final. Argentinos Junior were beaten on penalties and Juve were the world champions.”
                              You will have to do an archive search to find anything more than that – specifically a couple of news articles on the anniversary. One includes details of a permanent Heysel exhibit at the museum which opened last year at the new Juventus Stadium. The club has decided that relatives of the victims will always be allowed permanent free access to the museum.
                              This is progress. For many years the bereaved met with what they perceived to be a sense of denial from Juventus about a disaster that overshadowed the club’s long-awaited first European Cup win. In The Truths of Heysel – a book written by Andrea Lorentini, whose father Roberto died in Brussels and whose grandfather Otello has led the campaign for the victims to be officially recognised by the club – writes of the “bewilderment, reticence, guilty silences and suspicion” the bereaved have faced in their dealings with Juventus.
                              Justice for Heysel? There can never be justice for 39 lives lost at a football match, but it is in Turin , not on Merseyside, that the cries of the bereaved have met with silence down the years.
                              The families do not want their lost ones to become a cause celebre in England , particularly not when the purpose has purely been to score points on the terraces. A little more recognition closer to home is what they want.
                              Peanuts only a Joey a bag.

                              "Why go to learn the words of fools?" Steve Marriott/Ronnie Lane

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                                #35
                                I'm going to get slated for saying this, but I am a little bored of how all of this is shoved in our faces. Yesterday for example on the BBC website, they had a 'Updates from the Hillsborough remembrance'. Now what exactly could they report from that we weren't already aware of? It just seems a little strange.

                                However, some of the posts on this thread are so badly misinformed it's ridiculous. This disaster happened due to bad policing and stadium management, not drunk fans.

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                                  #36
                                  Originally posted by AndyStreet View Post
                                  Good to see the lies propagated by the police are still repeated as fact then. Why did the Prime Minister apologise on behalf of the then government? Think about it.
                                  Sadly, some people have a beef with scousers in general, and will never accept the truth.
                                  Great moments are born from great opportunity...

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                                    #37
                                    It is total justice I am waiting for. When the police and authorities admit their part in the tragedy and the fans who turned up without a ticket, knowing they could push their way in, do the same. I haven't heard one fan admit to the fact that they were in the ground without a ticket.
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                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by cdm61 View Post
                                      But there were no pissed up fans at Hillsborough - its a myth - watch the Panorama programme.
                                      Yes that's the case. My point was the culture at the time meant that it wasn't rare that it happened elsewhere, ultimately making an easy excuse for what did transpire.
                                      © SOUTH LONDON PRODUCTIONS

                                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIMGb0p9hrQ

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                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by Ardent Eagle Forever View Post
                                        Agree with all of the above.

                                        The authorities have been taking the blame for a lot of what happened on that day, but a certain element of Liverpool supporters (those who were pissed out of their brains, those without tickets, those looking for trouble)should rightly shoulder the blame because believe me they aren't innocent.

                                        Wasn't it the previous year those same type of Liverpool supporters were responsible for the Heysel disaster? For which Liverpool got banned from Europe.

                                        It annoys me that the finger of blame appears to be solely pointed at the authorities, as always there's two sides to a story.

                                        I remember my two trips to Anfield in the late 70's early eighties. I believe we were in the Anfield Road end opposite the Kop. We as Palace supporters were pelted with meat pies, but more chillingly coins and darts, by the Liverpool supporters at that end.

                                        Like all clubs there's good and bad supporters, and I believe Liverpool have more than their fair share of bad.
                                        Diehards post is an excellent one. I think the disaster that happened that day is what's called a Swiss cheese effect, where a tragedy that occurs usually has many different incidents that happen, when they're overlooked and not dealt with they align which is when a tragedy happens.

                                        I think the focus is rightly on the authorities now for the cover up that happened after. I also think that every element should be looked into that day but due to sensitivities I'm not sure much focus will be on Liverpool supporters that day.

                                        A colleague of mine who is from Sheffield and was in Sheffield at the time tells me of events happening in and around Sheffield at the time where in his words Liverpool fans were taking 'liberties' I believe the Police would've been on edge due to it being the height of trouble and a short time after Hysel, the behaviour of fans during the morning and awful facilities and poor/dated infrastructure ultimately lead to the police making bad decisions on the day that lead to the very sad lose of live, then we had the cover up for the polices mistakes. There were many elements to this disaster and as said by others was probably a tragedy waiting to happen.
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                                          #40
                                          Sorry posted in error
                                          Last edited by N Herts Eagle; 16-04-2014, 08:33 AM.

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