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  #66421  
Old 13-03-2018, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Am Phibian View Post
All EU fishermen. If the rules are in plaice to help sustain stocks and they flout them they should face tough punishment.
Well, I saw what did there.
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  #66422  
Old 13-03-2018, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by nickgusset View Post
I know.

Britain has gorn bonkers, it really has.
There is a difference the fishermen and the fish processing plants. Youngs being the biggest. The processors certainly do want free market access as does the new port down the road .
Most of the fish through the processing plants is imported. Its the biggest employee in Grimsby. Looking it up in the 70's there were 400 trawlers in Grimsby now days its 5. Oh and a few boats 15 for the windfarms
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  #66423  
Old 13-03-2018, 09:55 PM
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I don’t understand the relevance of life 50 years ago to today’s global world.

(That’s not tautology is it?).
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  #66424  
Old 13-03-2018, 09:59 PM
N Herts Eagle N Herts Eagle is offline
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I donít understand the relevance of life 50 years ago to todayís global world.

(Thatís not tautology is it?).
Read this....... remember I am not saying I agree by the way

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  #66425  
Old 13-03-2018, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
No it does not. Otherwise it would be worthless. This is the actual text

“The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .”

You have focussed on the word “it”, without appreciating the context of the text. An attack on one is an attack on all and we are obliged to take action. The action will stop when the security council has decided it stops. The security council - not our sovereign government.

Your interpretation would mean there is no alliance. Just a woolly agreement that if the uk is attacked and destroyed by nuclear missiles the rest of nato can sit back and say, “peace has been restored now the uk has been destroyed”.

That is entirely not the point of NATO. If it had been we wouldn’t have had a Cold War. We would have had nuclear war.
H, the only action we are obliged to take is the action we deem necessary. This is important in the context that it actually gives us freedom of choice to attack the aggressor under the relevant article of the UN Charter (51, which I understand is also sometimes called the arms dealer's article in the arms trade as it deals with the concept of legitimising self defence either individually or collectively). Should we choose to do so.

Without the treaty, if France were attacked by say Brazil, it would be far more problematic for a friendly country to intervene militarily were it not part of a formal alliance such as NATO or the erstwhile Warsaw Pact. There is little point debating it further.

Last edited by dim; 13-03-2018 at 10:19 PM.
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  #66426  
Old 13-03-2018, 10:19 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
Read this....... remember I am not saying I agree by the way

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Thanks NHE, I enjoyed that article. Grimbarians? A little more travel to towns like Grimsby wouldn't do any harm to some of the southern, middle classes and might actually broaden their understanding of politics and the issues facing the country. Having said that, come to think about it, I haven't been to Grimsby since Ashley Cole made his debut during the first Administration.
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  #66427  
Old 13-03-2018, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Thanks NHE, I enjoyed that article. Grimbarians? A little more travel to towns like Grimsby wouldn't do any harm to some of the southern, middle classes and might actually broaden their understanding of politics and the issues facing the country. Having said that, come to think about it, I haven't been to Grimsby since Ashley Cole made his debut during the first Administration.
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  #66428  
Old 13-03-2018, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by dim View Post
H, the only action we are obliged to take is the action we deem necessary.
I agree with you (dim) on this. There is no automatic trigger (as with pretty much all international law based issues).
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  #66429  
Old 13-03-2018, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Thanks NHE, I enjoyed that article. Grimbarians? A little more travel to towns like Grimsby wouldn't do any harm to some of the southern, middle classes and might actually broaden their understanding of politics and the issues facing the country. Having said that, come to think about it, I haven't been to Grimsby since Ashley Cole made his debut during the first Administration.
No problem I had a great day and got some great food cheaply. It was though a real eye opener and the dock area which would not be high on any visitors list is nothing like anything I have seen with a few great places in blocks of closed boarded up places.

Oh I was there for the debut as well.
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  #66430  
Old 13-03-2018, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dim View Post
H, the only action we are obliged to take is the action we deem necessary. This is important in the context that it actually gives us freedom of choice to attack the aggressor under the relevant article of the UN Charter (51, which I understand is also sometimes called the arms dealer's article in the arms trade as it deals with the concept of legitimising self defence either individually or collectively). Should we choose to do so.

Without the treaty, if France were attacked by say Brazil, it would be far more problematic for a friendly country to intervene militarily were it not part of a formal alliance such as NATO or the erstwhile Warsaw Pact. There is little point debating it further.
Dim. I think the point you are omitting is the only reason the word ďitĒ was included in the article was to satisfy the American constitution. The Belgian treaty 1949 (or 48 I canít remember) did not include any such ďitĒ and was the precursor to NATO. It took months (2 years) to negotiate this article and the inclusion of ďitĒ has as much relevance as nada.

Sadly in 1951 the Americans were as obsessed by their constitution as they are today by the 2nd ammendment.

You know as I know that the point of NATO is if one is attacked all attacked. ďItĒ is a technical irrelevance - thankfully.

The other route is to suggest ďitĒ is a get out clause for NATO allies. In which case NATO is irrelevant and we are on our own. If so Theresa May should shut the **** up right now as if we are on our own we are playing with fire (and radiation).
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  #66431  
Old 13-03-2018, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
I agree with you (dim) on this. There is no automatic trigger (as with pretty much all international law based issues).
So what is the point of the alliance? Feck, the American constitution means NATO is irrelevant?

Last edited by Hpalace; 13-03-2018 at 10:50 PM.
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  #66432  
Old 13-03-2018, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
So what is the point of the alliance? Feck, the American constitution means NATO is irrelevant?
It is an international body forged to prevent history re-occurring but crucially through politics. It was never the intention of the politicians that just because a member is threatened that there should be all out war. Quite the opposite. It was supposed to work as a deterrent. There is also the point that all alliances are subject to internal division. Putin sussed this.
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  #66433  
Old 13-03-2018, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Thanks NHE, I enjoyed that article. Grimbarians? A little more travel to towns like Grimsby wouldn't do any harm to some of the southern, middle classes and might actually broaden their understanding of politics and the issues
This is one of your big problems as a bbs poster; you seem only to think in terms of stereotypes. For my own part, in the last seven days I have been to Tynemouth, Skipton, Bolton Abbey and Edinburgh. I canít think Iím the only BBS poster who gets around the UK (apart from the CH obvious).
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  #66434  
Old 14-03-2018, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
It is an international body forged to prevent history re-occurring but crucially through politics. It was never the intention of the politicians that just because a member is threatened that there should be all out war. Quite the opposite. It was supposed to work as a deterrent. There is also the point that all alliances are subject to internal division. Putin sussed this.
Oh I totally agree with this. That was never its intention otherwise there would have been many many disasters.

The key is an attack on one is an attack on all. If that is not the case and it is a sovereign choice then it is a waste of time, effort and needed resources. The uk is simply unable to defend itself against the aggressors NATO is set up to defend it against.

Using the word “it’s” to determine NATO does not mean the uk share sovereignty with NATO under the pretext that in 1951 the USA insisted on “its” to defend its constitution is either arguing that it does not share sovereignty and is therefore meaningless or the word “its” is meaningless.

Hence trump saying the “it’s” only applies if the rest of you follow the rules of 2%. In order to be under the nuclear umbrella we must obey the rules of the nuclear umbrella via SHARED sovereignty.

The point of this is to suggest the uk, upon leaving the eu will have sole sovereignty. We won’t. We haven’t for over a century. Even then it was doubtful.

Globalisation. Suck it up brexiteers. It ain’t going to change.

Last edited by Hpalace; 14-03-2018 at 08:41 AM.
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  #66435  
Old 14-03-2018, 12:26 AM
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This is one of your big problems as a bbs poster; you seem only to think in terms of stereotypes. For my own part, in the last seven days I have been to Tynemouth, Skipton, Bolton Abbey and Edinburgh. I canít think Iím the only BBS poster who gets around the UK (apart from the CH obvious).
I believe that elgin was in Salisbury recently.
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Old 14-03-2018, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
It is an international body forged to prevent history re-occurring but crucially through politics. It was never the intention of the politicians that just because a member is threatened that there should be all out war. Quite the opposite. It was supposed to work as a deterrent. There is also the point that all alliances are subject to internal division. Putin sussed this.
Oh and itís not through politics. Itís through MAD defence. To suggest NATO is a political institution when the point of its existence is to have the ability as a deterrent to blow up the world is naive. Itís a military deterrent not a political deterrent.

The entire point of MAD is mutually assured destruction. Not table talk.
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Old 14-03-2018, 12:31 AM
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I believe that elgin was in Salisbury recently.
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Old 14-03-2018, 07:57 AM
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I donít understand the relevance of life 50 years ago to todayís global world.

(Thatís not tautology is it?).
You don't understand the relevance of life 50 minutes ago.
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Old 14-03-2018, 08:28 AM
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This is one of your big problems as a bbs poster; you seem only to think in terms of stereotypes. For my own part, in the last seven days I have been to Tynemouth, Skipton, Bolton Abbey and Edinburgh. I canít think Iím the only BBS poster who gets around the UK (apart from the CH obvious).
Maz you appear to have missed the point of your tautology statement. I gave you figures for the Grimsby trawler fishing fleet when we joined the EU and the figures as they are when we left. To save you the time 400 down to 5. Its not just the boats its a whole host of associated jobs in the Docks, a whole host of other employees that relied on the fleet. To the cafes I say that as one Sollys stood out and the idea of some Coffee Bar even an independent one would of made even you smile.
Yet some on here were moaning about why Grimsby voted Brexit and then wanted special status. Like many places its town that believes the South forgot the article uses "elite" that it was left to die because of the EU. Looking at it and if your ever up this way I will be happy to take you I can understand why. If you like smoked fish its worth coming to see........ haddock straight from the smokehouse
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Old 14-03-2018, 08:48 AM
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Maz you appear to have missed the point of your tautology statement. I gave you figures for the Grimsby trawler fishing fleet when we joined the EU and the figures as they are when we left. To save you the time 400 down to 5. Its not just the boats its a whole host of associated jobs in the Docks, a whole host of other employees that relied on the fleet. To the cafes I say that as one Sollys stood out and the idea of some Coffee Bar even an independent one would of made even you smile.
Yet some on here were moaning about why Grimsby voted Brexit and then wanted special status. Like many places its town that believes the South forgot the article uses "elite" that it was left to die because of the EU. Looking at it and if your ever up this way I will be happy to take you I can understand why. If you like smoked fish its worth coming to see........ haddock straight from the smokehouse
The problem with all that is that it can only be speculative, as nobody knows what would have happened to the Grimbsy fleet if we hadn't joined the EU. Presumably, if prices were superior, we would have still imported fish from abroad, wherever it came form, especially with new technology allowing longer storage of product.

Industries come and go, especially those that are subjected to global competition, so who knows what would have happened, in or out.

It will be interesting to see if the Grimsby fleet has a renaissance after we leave, but I don't think there will be many holding their breath for that.
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