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  #81  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:15 PM
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It's horrendous that they were allowed to get away with it for so long obviously because of racial tensions which should never come into it, the police and social services failed these kids terribly because they were frightened of who were being focused on which I do not give a flying feck about.

Yes these were Asians gangs and yes I have no problem at all pointing the finger but for it to be brushed under the carpet is terrible work by the police and social services.

The whataboutery with white child molesters comes across a so diversionary especially when dealing with something as big as this.
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  #82  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:17 PM
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If anyone complains about how many CRB and such checks you have to go through just to work with young people,children, the vulnerable now because of "red tape" just look at every scandal from 30/40 years ago and how many predators and abusers were openly working with children, despite it being suspected they were peadophiles.
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  #83  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Vince Hilaire's Afro View Post
Is it not common practice to prefix 'gangs' or groups of people?

For instance, if a gang of Eastern Europeans are human trafficking, it's not referenced merely as a human trafficking gang. If a group of Catholic priests are abusing children, they're not referenced generically as clergymen, they're referenced as 'catholic priests'.

Is it due to a desire to fan prejudice and hate, or is it merely standard protocol to facilitate context (however lazily)?
it's due to the fact this is a majority white country. So the press don't feel the need to signify whiteness because they see it as the default and normative position, so they assume on a sub-concious level if you go up to your average bloke on the street, unless you specify an ethnic background,they'll just assume the person in question is white.
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  #84  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by VAR View Post
So when Asian grooming gangs or Catholic priests commit rape it's the fault of child services?
I think not. Their incompetence might allow it to go unnoticed but the problem is with the culture of the predators. The church and the immigrants get away with it for the same reason, because they are protected by a lobby of apologists.
Its their failure to do their jobs and fulfil their duty of care, that is allowing people to get away with it. They're not raping the kids, of course not, but they aren't they're not incompetent - they're complacent to the point of collusion. There isn't much, society can do about the predators, in terms of prevention - Other than Social Services and the Police actually doing their job.

The problem is compounded because no one really values these kids. They tend to be seen as trouble makers, runaways, liars and unreliable and have a history with the police and social services that effectively leads them to being 'written off' or ignored. Consequently, a result of this has led to the proliferation of grooming gangs who specifically target these victims because they know there is no one who is going to act.

Social Services tend to see these kids as 'lost causes' and the police as 'time wasters and poor witnesses' by default. The CPS won't pursue cases for similar reasons. Then when a scandal blows up, the complacent and compliant, find 'reasonable' excuses why they didn't do their job; society listens for a bit, then goes back to not being interested until the next big scandal.

Problem is, you won't prevent predators existing. Society will always have them. The only thing you can do is identify predators and remove them from society. That requires that child services do their job, and that the police do theirs - which makes it much harder for predators to operate freely.

Successful predators tend towards vulnerable targets, and that then proliferates among predators (as unsuccessful offenders come into contact with other in prison, they also tend to refine their targeting methods).
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  #85  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Its their failure to do their jobs and fulfil their duty of care, that is allowing people to get away with it. They're not raping the kids, of course not, but they aren't they're not incompetent - they're complacent to the point of collusion. There isn't much, society can do about the predators, in terms of prevention - Other than Social Services and the Police actually doing their job.

The problem is compounded because no one really values these kids. They tend to be seen as trouble makers, runaways, liars and unreliable and have a history with the police and social services that effectively leads them to being 'written off' or ignored. Consequently, a result of this has led to the proliferation of grooming gangs who specifically target these victims because they know there is no one who is going to act.

Social Services tend to see these kids as 'lost causes' and the police as 'time wasters and poor witnesses' by default. The CPS won't pursue cases for similar reasons. Then when a scandal blows up, the complacent and compliant, find 'reasonable' excuses why they didn't do their job; society listens for a bit, then goes back to not being interested until the next big scandal.

Problem is, you won't prevent predators existing. Society will always have them. The only thing you can do is identify predators and remove them from society. That requires that child services do their job, and that the police do theirs - which makes it much harder for predators to operate freely.

Successful predators tend towards vulnerable targets, and that then proliferates among predators (as unsuccessful offenders come into contact with other in prison, they also tend to refine their targeting methods).
yep, this 100%.
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  #86  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Les Butler View Post
It's horrendous that they were allowed to get away with it for so long obviously because of racial tensions which should never come into it, the police and social services failed these kids terribly because they were frightened of who were being focused on which I do not give a flying feck about.

Yes these were Asians gangs and yes I have no problem at all pointing the finger but for it to be brushed under the carpet is terrible work by the police and social services.

The whataboutery with white child molesters comes across a so diversionary especially when dealing with something as big as this.
Its important to remember that these issues were being reported but often more senior individuals, weren't interested. And you can be sure it was more about resourcing, budgets and hassle than because of the ethnicity of the accused.

If you're more worried about being called names, than children being raped you shouldn't be working in Child Services or the Police. Oddly, the police don't seem so worried about being called racist when they stop someone to search them for a knife. Its just a massive convenience to divert the blame when they're been negligent in dealing with children being raped.
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  #87  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:28 PM
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Depends what you mean when you say "these crimes".

It was definitely relevant during the S.Lawrence saga, wasn't it? So it should be relevant also for these particular cases where it was brushed under the carpet by police and local authorities because of the skin colours of the victims and the skin colours of the perpetrators.
You misunderstand my post. I am certain that people of brown hue are not more likely to commit these crimes, I see no Nepalese, Sri Lankans or Brazilians being involved.

I do see people with a similar culture being involved. That culture whether it be from Yemen or Pakistan places a strong emphasis on controlling women.
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  #88  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:29 PM
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Its important to remember that these issues were being reported but often more senior individuals, weren't interested. And you can be sure it was more about resourcing, budgets and hassle than because of the ethnicity of the accused.

If you're more worried about being called names, than children being raped you shouldn't be working in Child Services or the Police. Oddly, the police don't seem so worried about being called racist when they stop someone to search them for a knife. Its just a massive convenience to divert the blame when they're been negligent in dealing with children being raped.
I think probably it was on such a large scale that they thought feck this for a game of soldiers especially with the racial aspect and did not want the fallout,budget-wise they never have a problem spending millions on celebrities.
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  #89  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:30 PM
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You misunderstand my post. I am certain that people of brown hue are not more likely to commit these crimes, I see no Nepalese, Sri Lankans or Brazilians being involved.

I do see people with a similar culture being involved. That culture whether it be from Yemen or Pakistan places a strong emphasis on controlling women.
And its a culture we politically suck up to in the UAE.
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Old 12-03-2018, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Vince Hilaire's Afro View Post
Is it not common practice to prefix 'gangs' or groups of people?

For instance, if a gang of Eastern Europeans are human trafficking, it's not referenced merely as a human trafficking gang. If a group of Catholic priests are abusing children, they're not referenced generically as clergymen, they're referenced as 'catholic priests'.

Is it due to a desire to fan prejudice and hate, or is it merely standard protocol to facilitate context (however lazily)?
Its because its different. The tendency of news is to report on the unusual story rather than the usual, because that's the business of news. Even the horrible that happens on a day to day basis becomes less 'news worthy' because its common place.

Similarly, when reporting on offenders, the tendency it to report on what is unusual about them, or how they differ from the norm. So minority tags tend to get applied (such as Muslim Child Sex offender, where as Christian would likely not get mentioned unless it was very specific to the case).

The problem isn't actually the labels and terms; its generally how this then gets picked up and fed into political agendas as a means of demonising whole groups of people - for political gain. It then becomes the means by which a problem is defined and more salient points where the problem can be approached are missed out (Knife crime becomes black, not poverty and Child Grooming gangs are a Muslim problem, not a social services - because if we accepted the other associated traits, we'd have to do something expensive about the problem).

Ending poverty is expensive, expanding police services or revamping child services is expensive. Blaming Muslims or Black or Whites (where they're a minority - see Zimbabwe) is just easy.

And its not like these kids have anyone likely to fight for them or can vote. Most of them will spend their lives in and out of institutions and on the edges of society, unrepresented and largely considered 'detritus'. Life opportunities once you enter social care a massively reduced, and these are the kids in care, who were already 'written off' (Runaways, drug users, trouble makers, rebellious).
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  #91  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:41 PM
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Some of the kids believed they were in relationships with their abusers, surely if there is a kid in a relationship in with a Pakistani man who treats her bad/passes her around amongst friends, and she sees this in the media... it could help her realise the situation she is in.
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  #92  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
You misunderstand my post. I am certain that people of brown hue are not more likely to commit these crimes, I see no Nepalese, Sri Lankans or Brazilians being involved.

That culture whether it be from Yemen or Pakistan places a strong emphasis on controlling women.
And should have no place in the UK.
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  #93  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:44 PM
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I think probably it was on such a large scale that they thought feck this for a game of soldiers especially with the racial aspect and did not want the fallout,budget-wise they never have a problem spending millions on celebrities.
They only acted on celebrities after Savile died and it all came out. Similar with Rochdale etc the work of a few social workers and reporters outed a nightmare that had been allowed to grow, and then the only option the police and social services had was to act. But in truth, they'd effectively known of a cancer that had been growing in their society for decades. Its very telling that as soon as the scandal broke; Social Services and the Police very quickly went about arresting people, charging them and bringing them to court.

Same as they did after Savile, all those reports that had been made previously and subsequently, they acted on as soon as possible; because they'd been caught out. The truth is, in all these cases, the price of failure by societies 'Guardians' has been children being repeatedly raped and abused (and in some cases even dying).
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Old 12-03-2018, 01:52 PM
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Some of the kids believed they were in relationships with their abusers, surely if there is a kid in a relationship in with a Pakistani man who treats her bad/passes her around amongst friends, and she sees this in the media... it could help her realise the situation she is in.
That's why this particular group is favoured. Their childhood and examples of what a good relationship is are monumentally dysfunctional. You don't get taken into care because you've had good examples in life. Chances are that they saw the way they were being treated as normal, or even positively rewarded (in terms of money, drugs booze). Its important to remember these are kids from the most dysfunctional of backgrounds. Those that can't be placed with family or in the foster system.

Many of them were likely abused, physically, mentally and or sexually by one or both parents, possibly by others, long before they came into contact with the grooming gangs. Its hard to imagine just how grim their previous lives were.

Chances are that this was almost a way of life before the groomers got a hold of them. They might even have treated them better than anyone else in their life, because they paid them attention. Its a f**king tragedy, built on a tragedy.
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Old 12-03-2018, 01:57 PM
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That's why this particular group is favoured. Their childhood and examples of what a good relationship is are monumentally dysfunctional. You don't get taken into care because you've had good examples in life. Chances are that they saw the way they were being treated as normal, or even positively rewarded (in terms of money, drugs booze). Its important to remember these are kids from the most dysfunctional of backgrounds. Those that can't be placed with family or in the foster system.

Many of them were likely abused, physically, mentally and or sexually by one or both parents, possibly by others, long before they came into contact with the grooming gangs. Its hard to imagine just how grim their previous lives were.

Chances are that this was almost a way of life before the groomers got a hold of them. They might even have treated them better than anyone else in their life, because they paid them attention. Its a f**king tragedy, built on a tragedy.
Yep, if you look at the data, those who are abused as teenagers/adults tend to have been abused as children also.
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Old 12-03-2018, 01:58 PM
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And should have no place in the UK.
Even though, to a lesser extent, it is a tradition of UK culture? lets not pretend that UK culture isn't a degree of the same thing.
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  #97  
Old 12-03-2018, 02:03 PM
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Similarly, when reporting on offenders, the tendency it to report on what is unusual about them, or how they differ from the norm. So minority tags tend to get applied (such as Muslim Child Sex offender, where as Christian would likely not get mentioned unless it was very specific to the case).
Is this your theory, or based on empirical evidence? You mentioned Christianity only being mentioned if it's specific to the case. Is the word 'Muslim' applied for a similar reason, i.e the perpetrator attempting to hide behind his faith and avoid prosecution on the grounds of cultural differences, or is it applied indiscriminately?

Certainly a Christian sex offender would be referenced as a Christian if he were using his faith as a shield.
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Old 12-03-2018, 02:04 PM
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And should have no place in the UK.
Of course not. That was the point of my original post as much as we can celebrate other cultures there is no place for abuse whether that be grooming white kids or mutilating your own before marrying them off at 15 for family honour.

There can be no cultural sensitivity around crime. There is nothing racist about that and in fact if you do cover up or not investigate abuse becuase it is culturally sensitive that could very well lead to racism.

The law applies equally to all, whether that be African's torturing the devil out of children or catholic priests abusing choir boys for the greater glory of god.
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Old 12-03-2018, 02:07 PM
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They only acted on celebrities after Savile died and it all came out. Similar with Rochdale etc the work of a few social workers and reporters outed a nightmare that had been allowed to grow, and then the only option the police and social services had was to act. But in truth, they'd effectively known of a cancer that had been growing in their society for decades. Its very telling that as soon as the scandal broke; Social Services and the Police very quickly went about arresting people, charging them and bringing them to court.

Same as they did after Savile, all those reports that had been made previously and subsequently, they acted on as soon as possible; because they'd been caught out. The truth is, in all these cases, the price of failure by societies 'Guardians' has been children being repeatedly raped and abused (and in some cases even dying).

It has just dawned on me, wasn't Rochdale not Cyrille Smith's old buggering ground? God, what a place to be a disadvantaged child in.
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Old 12-03-2018, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Vince Hilaire's Afro View Post
Is the word 'Muslim' applied for a similar reason, i.e the perpetrator attempting to hide behind his faith and avoid prosecution on the grounds of cultural differences....?
.
Has this happened?
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