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  #101  
Old 12-03-2018, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
Even though, to a lesser extent, it is a tradition of UK culture? lets not pretend that UK culture isn't a degree of the same thing.
Frankly that is a ridiculous statement
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  #102  
Old 12-03-2018, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
Even though, to a lesser extent, it is a tradition of UK culture? lets not pretend that UK culture isn't a degree of the same thing.
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  #103  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
Even though, to a lesser extent, it is a tradition of UK culture? lets not pretend that UK culture isn't a degree of the same thing.
I know I shouldn't ask but could you explain ?
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  #104  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by eaglejez View Post
I know I shouldn't ask but could you explain ?
This will be interesting.
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  #105  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
It has just dawned on me, wasn't Rochdale not Cyrille Smith's old buggering ground? God, what a place to be a disadvantaged child in.
Had we known about it, I'm sure fellow members of the fat community would have acted swiftly to root this out. There is nothing in our scripture (www,just-eat.co.uk) that justifies that type of abuse.
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  #106  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Baffled Bob 2 View Post
Had we known about it, I'm sure fellow members of the fat community would have acted swiftly to root this out. There is nothing in our scripture (www,just-eat.co.uk) that justifies that type of abuse.
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  #107  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by eaglejez View Post
I know I shouldn't ask but could you explain ?
Why, oh why, did you do that?

Hasn't he made his ideology and his chances of ever objectively seeing beyond it perfectly clear?
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  #108  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Its their failure to do their jobs and fulfil their duty of care, that is allowing people to get away with it. They're not raping the kids, of course not, but they aren't they'..........................
The whole point of the article and in other towns is that the authorities are turning a blind eye because they are afraid of ethnic tensions.

I don't see how you can miss it and you're making stuff up in that post to support your case.
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  #109  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
.............. Oddly, the police don't seem so worried about being called racist when they stop someone to search them for a knife. Its just a massive convenience to divert the blame when they're been negligent in dealing with children being raped.
The success of stop and search is about 17%, pretty effective I'd say. Of course the 83% like to whinge about and complain about racism but at 17% I's say they just have to put up with it.
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  #110  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Vince Hilaire's Afro View Post
Is this your theory, or based on empirical evidence? You mentioned Christianity only being mentioned if it's specific to the case. Is the word 'Muslim' applied for a similar reason, i.e the perpetrator attempting to hide behind his faith and avoid prosecution on the grounds of cultural differences, or is it applied indiscriminately?

Certainly a Christian sex offender would be referenced as a Christian if he were using his faith as a shield.
Thing is, these people aren't using Islam as a shield. If you're raping children I think its safe to say that you're not really adhering to, or an example of your Religion. I know there are references in the Bible and Koran that could loosely justify this kind of abhorrence - but the only people who use that are monsters.

The problem becomes the notion of guilt by association, and the rhetoric that uses this association as a means of justifying prejudice against a whole group in society, rather than those who are responsible (we see the same thing with association between Islam and terrorism - and how that then works to justify reprisals). We know that groups like the EDL, BNP, BF etc feed into this as a means of generating sympathy and justifying their own campaigns of prejudice.
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  #111  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Thing is, these people aren't using Islam as a shield. If you're raping children I think its safe to say that you're not really adhering to, or an example of your Religion. I know there are references in the Bible and Koran that could loosely justify this kind of abhorrence - but the only people who use that are monsters.

The problem becomes the notion of guilt by association, and the rhetoric that uses this association as a means of justifying prejudice against a whole group in society, rather than those who are responsible (we see the same thing with association between Islam and terrorism - and how that then works to justify reprisals). We know that groups like the EDL, BNP, BF etc feed into this as a means of generating sympathy and justifying their own campaigns of prejudice.
The people that have committed these crimes are Monsters.
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  #112  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
The success of stop and search is about 17%, pretty effective I'd say. Of course the 83% like to whinge about and complain about racism but at 17% I's say they just have to put up with it.
The justification for Stop and Search has always been its actually quite successful (and having come from a very privileged white area, that stop and search is applied by Police in Henley on Thames). It can be f**king annoying at times, but its fairly reasonable where you have a problem with people being stabbed to stop and search based on reasonable profiles (provided that in other areas where there is a problem, such as Glasgow, similar strategies are being implemented fairly (i.e. white young males).

Arguably I think most of the problems with Stop and Search stem from when it was used regularly as a means of enforcing drug policy. Knives and guns, pretty much justified.
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  #113  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
..........................
The problem isn't actually the labels and terms; its generally how this then gets picked up and fed into political agendas as a means of demonising whole groups of people - for political gain. It then becomes the means by which a problem is defined and more salient points where the problem can be approached are missed out (Knife crime becomes black, not poverty and Child Grooming gangs are a Muslim problem, not a social services - because if we accepted the other associated traits, we'd have to do something expensive about the problem).

...........

An article linked earlier in the thread, says grooming gangs are 84% Asian going on to say British-Pakistani.

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Where should the authorities look for the abusers, there's a clue above. You seem to be suggesting that can't be considered only that there may be abusers out there.

It smacks of the attitude of the authorities in these cases, we can't actually group who's doing.
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  #114  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:57 PM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
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Originally Posted by garronrav View Post
The people that have committed these crimes are Monsters.
Yes, they are; I didn't think that needed stating. Some of them maybe sick, or damaged in someway; but people who have raped children really should never 'see the light of day' without establishing beyond reasonable doubt that they have reformed (including limited release with strict supervision and very strict rules - such as regular drug testing to ensure they're taking meds - for say chemical castration etc).

Same goes pretty much for any rapist piece of s**t out there. Not only do we fail the victims by often not listening to them, too often those who are sent down, get time off for pleading guilty, good behaviour and early release programs put them back out into society within a few years.

Sex offenders should only be released on the basis of establishing a very strong case for release, following extensive treatment programs.
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  #115  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Thing is, these people aren't using Islam as a shield. If you're raping children I think its safe to say that you're not really adhering to, or an example of your Religion. I know there are references in the Bible and Koran that could loosely justify this kind of abhorrence - but the only people who use that are monsters.

The problem becomes the notion of guilt by association, and the rhetoric that uses this association as a means of justifying prejudice against a whole group in society, rather than those who are responsible (we see the same thing with association between Islam and terrorism - and how that then works to justify reprisals). We know that groups like the EDL, BNP, BF etc feed into this as a means of generating sympathy and justifying their own campaigns of prejudice.
I'm not saying they are hiding behind their faith. I said the introduction of the word 'Muslim' to my mind only seems to be introduced if it has relevance to the story - i.e. The perpetrator attempting to exploit cultural differences in how stricter interpretations of Islam allegedly view sex with underage persons and non consensual sex with women.

Even in the article referenced on this thread, despite it being from a rag like the Mirror, there is no mention of the word 'Muslim'. The accused are referenced as Asian, a wholly accurate term that also highlights a notable trend in this particular case. Had they all been teenagers, they would have been called 'teenage gang'. The reporting appears unbiased and factual. Of course, agendas are there if you are looking for them, be it right wing extremists looking to fan flames of racist bigotry, or people with liberal views looking for implied prejudices.

Had a group of Asian families or businesses grouped together and done something positive, I'm equally confident that they would have been described as Asians/the Asian community.
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  #116  
Old 12-03-2018, 04:04 PM
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An article linked earlier in the thread, says grooming gangs are 84% Asian going on to say British-Pakistani.

To view the link you have to Register or Login

Where should the authorities look for the abusers, there's a clue above. You seem to be suggesting that can't be considered only that there may be abusers out there.

It smacks of the attitude of the authorities in these cases, we can't actually group who's doing.
Where should they look, at the allegations of the victims. You can't just go out and find child sex offenders on the basis of a stop and search (for example). In these cases, the problem was never the race or religion of the offenders, it was the unwillingness of Police to deal with allegations and complaints and social services to do their job.

These aren't crimes the police can 'go looking for' by targeting a community - They need to start by working with those who do come forward with concerns.

And that's the problem. Where social workers reported incidents of concern, their superiors weren't interested or shut them down. Where people reported them to the police, they weren't interested labelling the victims timewasters and troublemakers - until it became too bigger issue for them to ignore - and then society saw the scale of a problem that had been left alone for decades in some cases.

Its a cop out to blame political correctness, or fear of being called racist. Because this is the systematic rape of children, by sinister and callous predators. Which any right minded person couldn't ignore.
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  #117  
Old 12-03-2018, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Yes, they are; I didn't think that needed stating. Some of them maybe sick, or damaged in someway; but people who have raped children really should never 'see the light of day' without establishing beyond reasonable doubt that they have reformed (including limited release with strict supervision and very strict rules - such as regular drug testing to ensure they're taking meds - for say chemical castration etc).

................
Some states in the US allow surgical castration, it is almost totally effective.
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  #118  
Old 12-03-2018, 04:17 PM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
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The whole point of the article and in other towns is that the authorities are turning a blind eye because they are afraid of ethnic tensions.

I don't see how you can miss it and you're making stuff up in that post to support your case.
And the problem is that by accepting that as an excuse, people are getting let off the hook for systematic failure to do their jobs. They're using an excuse and people are kind of, ok, well that seems ok.

But when you actually look into the cases, and the background, and listen to the victims, and the enquiries - that's not what happened. Police routinely ignored warnings and ignored reports from victims (and in some cases parents and relatives of the victims). Social workers who raised concerns were shut down by their superiors, and when they went to the police, they were ignored. That's not fear of ethnic tensions, when you have witnesses and evidence of a serious crime. That's dereliction.

The police certainly weren't scared of ethnic tensions when they finally were forced into doing something either. Nor do they seem to be overly scared of ethnic tensions in other areas of policing.

But when its vulnerable kids, that no one really cares about, that are more often than not very troubled kids, ignoring very serious crimes seems to be ok.

I don't buy it. If it was drug dealing or low impact crime, maybe - But we're talking about the second most serious crime that the police ever deal with, after murder.

And they always have an excuse (with Savile et al it was fear of celebrity power; with the child homes it was the power of the local authority). It might be a factor.

But ask yourself, would you be willing to accept children being raped if it made for an easier life? Of course you wouldn't and nor would I. So why do social services and the police get a pass

Its a cop out, a convenient means of mitigating a massive failure.
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  #119  
Old 12-03-2018, 04:21 PM
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I know I shouldn't ask but could you explain ?
1.Have you read the bible?

2.Women still aren't paid equally

3.We've just had the anniversary of the struggle for women's suffrage

4. Women are traditionally "given away" by their father at weddings

5. Men are traditionally meant to ask the fathers blessing for them to get married

6. Have you seen the statistics for violence against women in the UK

7. Have you seen how much of that is perpetrated by a partner or an ex lover
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  #120  
Old 12-03-2018, 04:24 PM
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dogstar721 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietdogstar721 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietdogstar721 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietdogstar721 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietdogstar721 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietdogstar721 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietdogstar721 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietdogstar721 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietdogstar721 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietdogstar721 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietdogstar721 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
It has just dawned on me, wasn't Rochdale not Cyrille Smith's old buggering ground? God, what a place to be a disadvantaged child in.
I wonder why Smith and Savile got away with it for so long, whilst Harvey Proctor was crucified in public for consensual (paid) sex with 17-20 year old men. Because they were predators who specifically focused on the kind of people the police wouldn't be interested in.

I hate the fact I have sympathy for Harvey Proctor.
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