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  #201  
Old 09-07-2017, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
mahoosive
Stop that immediately. That is twice now you have used that non word.
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  #202  
Old 09-07-2017, 07:36 PM
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I'm not saying it can't be resurrected
Then it isn't dead. There's no such thing as resurrection outside of zombie movies and the Bible.
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  #203  
Old 09-07-2017, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
why should I pay 45% tax when the previous generation didn't?
so it's the young who should be penalised for when they were born and not yourself?


again just playing devils advocate
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  #204  
Old 09-07-2017, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Then it isn't dead. There's no such thing as resurrection outside of zombie movies and the Bible.
same thing
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  #205  
Old 09-07-2017, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
so it's the young who should be penalised for when they were born and not yourself?


again just playing devils advocate
Whooooosh.
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  #206  
Old 09-07-2017, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
so it's the young who should be penalised for when they were born and not yourself?


again just playing devils advocate
Compared to the previous generation he is the young, as you are to his.

So you've just made the argument that the young should pay more.
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  #207  
Old 09-07-2017, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Compared to the previous generation he is the young, as you are to his.

So you've just made the argument that the young should pay more.
I'm not against tuition fees just pushing the arguments around but I don't have a problem with taxation because of the way I think about money.
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  #208  
Old 09-07-2017, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
I'm not against tuition fees just pushing the arguments around but I don't have a problem with taxation because of the way I think about money.
Most people don't have a problem with taxation, it's the levels of it and where government spends it that people disagree with.

Generally people think the rich should pay more, and the definition of rich is people with more money then them, and they think it should be spent on things that are important, and definition of important is things that will benefit them or meet their own ideological objectives.
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  #209  
Old 09-07-2017, 07:54 PM
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So obfuscation on tuition fees.

Want to let the yoof know this and run the numbers again?
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  #210  
Old 09-07-2017, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Leap of faith View Post
Why the hell should I pay for roads when I don't drive? You get deliveries don't you?
Why the hell should I pay for police when I live in a gated community? Do you ever exit your gated community?
Why the hell should I pay for social services when I don't care about other people's problems? Because these people might end up living on the streets if they didn't have help.
Why the hell should I pay for hospitals when I have private medical insurance? People would die.

My point is that it's your choice to go to university, will they pay me to train to become a mechanic or a plumber or a brickie as I might not be as academic? if so then fair enough. It needs to be a level playing field to learn anything you want for free.
Good point - university should be for the toffs again like before the war - it is proven that poor people are intellectually inferior and shouldn't be allowed to waste tax payers money by trying to educate themselves
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  #211  
Old 09-07-2017, 09:18 PM
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Good point - university should be for the toffs again like before the war - it is proven that poor people are intellectually inferior and shouldn't be allowed to waste tax payers money by trying to educate themselves
The problem is of course that it's not about the poor. If tuition fees were shown to be a significant barrier to poorer students going to university, that would be a good argument for scrapping them.

But we have free university education in Scotland and fees in England/Wales, so there's good data to compare.

It's in England, not Scotland, where poorer students are more likely to go, and in England not Scotland where the gap between rich and poor attendence has contracted more.

In both countries it's still middle class and rich kids most likely to go, so what were talking about is mostly a middle class/rich tax cut. Is that fair? We could after all keep fees but invest much more in grants, actually directly targeting the poorest students. Wouldn't that be fairer?

I agree with free education in principle, but this looks like a bit of a play for the middle class vote (as it was in Scotland where they cut grants and the more working class used FE colleges to pay for free universities) more then progressive politics
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  #212  
Old 09-07-2017, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
The problem is of course that it's not about the poor. If tuition fees were shown to be a significant barrier to poorer students going to university, that would be a good argument for scrapping them.

But we have free university education in Scotland and fees in England/Wales, so there's good data to compare.

It's in England, not Scotland, where poorer students are more likely to go, and in England not Scotland where the gap between rich and poor attendence has contracted more.

In both countries it's still middle class and rich kids most likely to go, so what were talking about is mostly a middle class/rich tax cut. Is that fair? We could after all keep fees but invest much more in grants, actually directly targeting the poorest students. Wouldn't that be fairer?

I agree with free education in principle, but this looks like a bit of a play for the middle class vote (as it was in Scotland where they cut grants and the more working class used FE colleges to pay for free universities) more then progressive politics
Sport (and football in particular) is a great leveller and demonstrates that you never know where the talent lies. Back in the day toffs were superior due to privilege not talent. Today you still can not enter the "professions" without a university degree - to deny that to the most talented minds due to finance is a tragedy for this country.
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  #213  
Old 09-07-2017, 09:44 PM
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Sport (and football in particular) is a great leveller and demonstrates that you never know where the talent lies. Back in the day toffs were superior due to privilege not talent. Today you still can not enter the "professions" without a university degree - to deny that to the most talented minds due to finance is a tragedy for this country.
I don't disagree, but what's that got to do with the issue of scrapping tuition fees?
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  #214  
Old 09-07-2017, 10:16 PM
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Today you still can not enter the "professions" without a university degree - to deny that to the most talented minds due to finance is a tragedy for this country.
Pretty much all the big four take school leavers.
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  #215  
Old 09-07-2017, 10:54 PM
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I don't disagree, but what's that got to do with the issue of scrapping tuition fees?
Tuition fees are potentially the reason why some of the most gifted and driven youngsters are put off university and never enter "To view the link you have to Register or Login".

You could argue that there are too many courses on offer which is why it is "unaffordable" to scrap tuition fees. My solution has always been for Universities to charge foreign students more and use that income to subsidise bursaries for students from low income families in degree subjects that are key for entry into professional careers.
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  #216  
Old 09-07-2017, 10:58 PM
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What degree subjects are for professional careers? Accountancy and law don't require specific subjects for the undergraduate degree. My wife is an accountant and she read chemistry. My ex is a solicitor and she read history of art. Apart from a doctor requiring a degree in natsci / medicine, I am not sure what you are talking about tbh.
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  #217  
Old 09-07-2017, 11:02 PM
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Tuition fees are potentially the reason why some of the most gifted and driven youngsters are put off university and never enter "To view the link you have to Register or Login".

You could argue that there are too many courses on offer which is why it is "unaffordable" to scrap tuition fees. My solution has always been for Universities to charge foreign students more and use that income to subsidise bursaries for students from low income families in degree subjects that are key for entry into professional careers.
Foreign students already pay up to triple for some courses.
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  #218  
Old 09-07-2017, 11:04 PM
Kidofwonder Kidofwonder is offline
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I think the point we seem to be skirting around and the more interesting one to discuss is not whether we need to scrap tuition fees but whether morally we should move back towards no tuition fees
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  #219  
Old 09-07-2017, 11:21 PM
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interesting the argument is that free education benefits the better off but surely it's the better off who will be paying for it from their taxes?
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  #220  
Old 10-07-2017, 01:38 AM
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The tuition fee thing again.

It's an absurd policy. It's ridiculously costly and where do you draw the line on who gets a rebate. Or is it everyone. Then buying the loan book back would be absurdly expensive. And what if I've paid it off early - do I feel hard done by?

Tuition fees aren't charged to poor students. They are charged to above average earners who are benefitting from their university education. It's as fair a tax as you could hope for and gives social mobility by allowing universities to offer more courses to a wider section of society.
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