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  #2241  
Old 26-07-2016, 03:00 PM
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Some practice for your Spanish holidays. Expansion (Spain's equivalent of the FT) looks at who will be affected in Spain by Brexit. Doesn't look like Spain's farmers, estate agents and exporters would want to see a trade war and tariffs.
Well, they (we) didn't want to see quite such a brusque devaluation of the pound, either. I think it has been overvalued for quite a long time, though. Certainly there will be losers here from Brexit - there will be opportunities, too, to draw wealth away from the City of London, and I guess in the long run the inevitable wearing away of British "soft power" and cultural influence will probably come with a boost to Spanish language culture.
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  #2242  
Old 26-07-2016, 03:22 PM
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Well, they (we) didn't want to see quite such a brusque devaluation of the pound, either. I think it has been overvalued for quite a long time, though. Certainly there will be losers here from Brexit - there will be opportunities, too, to draw wealth away from the City of London, and I guess in the long run the inevitable wearing away of British "soft power" and cultural influence will probably come with a boost to Spanish language culture.
I've read a few articles in the Spanish press along similar lines. I'm guessing that beneath the politics the Spanish business establishment will be pushing for a soft Brexit and as near a business as usual as possible, due to not just exports but their investments in the UK. Very similar to UK business. My own guess is that Spain will benefit over the next few years anyway, irrespective of Brexit, as the economy enjoys a natural bounce after the crisis. As you know, the Spanish population has been falling, particularly among the young, and I cannot see that continuing much longer.

I was over in Castellon earlier in the month and there was no anger or bitterness over Brexit but educated Spaniards who asked me about Brexit were bewildered and thought we were mad. When they asked me why we left it is hard to answer and very complex to explain. However, there are two things which the locals are surprised by when you consider a town one hour from London in, say, Kent. Firstly it is the income disparity between the City workers in my town and the average Joe in a warehouse or shop. The second in the cost of renting houses. For example the minimum wage if £7.20 an hour and 3 bedroom terrace costs 38-900 a month, so around 120 hours before tax to pay the rent.
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  #2243  
Old 26-07-2016, 03:39 PM
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However, there are two things which the locals are surprised by when you consider a town one hour from London in, say, Kent. Firstly it is the income disparity between the City workers in my town and the average Joe in a warehouse or shop. The second in the cost of renting houses. For example the minimum wage if £7.20 an hour and 3 bedroom terrace costs 38-900 a month, so around 120 hours before tax to pay the rent.
They are probably wishing they had asked you how leaving the EU is going to make a difference to any of that.
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  #2244  
Old 26-07-2016, 03:40 PM
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I've read a few articles in the Spanish press along similar lines. I'm guessing that beneath the politics the Spanish business establishment will be pushing for a soft Brexit and as near a business as usual as possible, due to not just exports but their investments in the UK. Very similar to UK business. My own guess is that Spain will benefit over the next few years anyway, irrespective of Brexit, as the economy enjoys a natural bounce after the crisis. As you know, the Spanish population has been falling, particularly among the young, and I cannot see that continuing much longer.

I was over in Castellon earlier in the month and there was no anger or bitterness over Brexit but educated Spaniards who asked me about Brexit were bewildered and thought we were mad. When they asked me why we left it is hard to answer and very complex to explain. However, there are two things which the locals are surprised by when you consider a town one hour from London in, say, Kent. Firstly it is the income disparity between the City workers in my town and the average Joe in a warehouse or shop. The second in the cost of renting houses. For example the minimum wage if £7.20 an hour and 3 bedroom terrace costs 38-900 a month, so around 120 hours before tax to pay the rent.
Yeah, the whole London thing is mind-boggling to us (I include myself, though I am a Londoner I moved away 26 years ago). Even when I moved it seemed to me that the housing market was overheated. I spent a few years in the 80s squatting in London around Ladbroke Grove, Queens Park and Harrow Road, and between squats and housing associations, the edge was taken off property prices for the long term and incorrigible impecunious (like me). But the location obsession is particularly sharp in London - although we have trendy areas in Madrid and Barcelona (and the most ridiculously expensive part of Madrid is, of course, where all the Brits live - except me, obviously) - prices are driven here much more by space, light and amenities.

It would be great if Brexit leads to the UK government spreading investment round the country and the City becoming less of a driving force, with deLondonisation. You would probably all end up poorer but happier. The pessimistic flipside of that is a deregulatory and desperate race to the bottom.

I don't believe that most European countries want to gratuitously put the boot in to the UK - Spain particularly has many of its children living there and a lot of your graniies over here. As that article points out, the UK is also our fourth most important EU market for exports, after Germany, France and Italy; but as you become poorer, that importance will ebb and flow and so will that immigration which so bothers the good burghers of Boston.
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  #2245  
Old 26-07-2016, 03:52 PM
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They - we'll, friends and family - have a realistic attitude to the EU. They recognise it's a flawed institution but that it can be improved ...
Do they really believe that ? Have they seen much realistic improvement in the last, say, 10 years ? If so, what examples are there ?
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  #2246  
Old 26-07-2016, 04:17 PM
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Yeah, the whole London thing is mind-boggling to us (I include myself, though I am a Londoner I moved away 26 years ago). Even when I moved it seemed to me that the housing market was overheated. I spent a few years in the 80s squatting in London around Ladbroke Grove, Queens Park and Harrow Road, and between squats and housing associations, the edge was taken off property prices for the long term and incorrigible impecunious (like me). But the location obsession is particularly sharp in London - although we have trendy areas in Madrid and Barcelona (and the most ridiculously expensive part of Madrid is, of course, where all the Brits live - except me, obviously) - prices are driven here much more by space, light and amenities.

It would be great if Brexit leads to the UK government spreading investment round the country and the City becoming less of a driving force, with deLondonisation. You would probably all end up poorer but happier. The pessimistic flipside of that is a deregulatory and desperate race to the bottom.

I don't believe that most European countries want to gratuitously put the boot in to the UK - Spain particularly has many of its children living there and a lot of your graniies over here. As that article points out, the UK is also our fourth most important EU market for exports, after Germany, France and Italy; but as you become poorer, that importance will ebb and flow and so will that immigration which so bothers the good burghers of Boston.
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As a quick example of why both sides won't want to cut trade see the attached article on today's Construction News. Three consortia are being formed to bid for a new tunnel from Silvertown to Greenwich next to the Blackwall and two of the groups contain Spanish contractors. I wouldn't necessarily assume Britain will become poorer if we Brexit, however, the measures that we would take to avoid it will not be what most leave voters would think acceptable. If that happens then the left and the working class Brexit right will be well and truly shafted by big business.
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  #2247  
Old 26-07-2016, 04:27 PM
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Nearly 20k have joined LibDems and 100k have joined Labour since Brexit. So a consequence is that many people have been energised to embrace politics since the vote. Add that to falling house prices, and we now have two good consequences.

Over a month on however, and there are no signs of either entrenched view letting up. This wound is going to fester for years yet I fear. There are signs however that for the first time since the vote, some who voted Leave are starting to get the hump. It's about bloody time, because those of us on the either side of the curtain have been miserable for a month.
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  #2248  
Old 26-07-2016, 04:31 PM
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Yeah, the whole London thing is mind-boggling to us (I include myself, though I am a Londoner I moved away 26 years ago). Even when I moved it seemed to me that the housing market was overheated. I spent a few years in the 80s squatting in London around Ladbroke Grove, Queens Park and Harrow Road, and between squats and housing associations, the edge was taken off property prices for the long term and incorrigible impecunious (like me). But the location obsession is particularly sharp in London - although we have trendy areas in Madrid and Barcelona (and the most ridiculously expensive part of Madrid is, of course, where all the Brits live - except me, obviously) - prices are driven here much more by space, light and amenities.

It would be great if Brexit leads to the UK government spreading investment round the country and the City becoming less of a driving force, with deLondonisation.You would probably all end up poorer but happier.The pessimistic flipside of that is a deregulatory and desperate race to the bottom.

I don't believe that most European countries want to gratuitously put the boot in to the UK - Spain particularly has many of its children living there and a lot of your graniies over here. As that article points out, the UK is also our fourth most important EU market for exports, after Germany, France and Italy; but as you become poorer, that importance will ebb and flow and so will that immigration which so bothers the good burghers of Boston.
Love that bit in the middle. For too long has GDP been a proxy for happiness. But that's another debate.
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  #2249  
Old 26-07-2016, 04:33 PM
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Birmingham Uni just emailed all of their science subject students about the vote, it's a negative email afaik, I shall post it up later.

GorBlimey can raise a broad smile that the laziest youngsters in Britain will finally get their comeuppance and end up in low skill manual jobs for hard workers, which of course benefits the country most.
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  #2250  
Old 26-07-2016, 04:35 PM
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Do they really believe that ? Have they seen much realistic improvement in the last, say, 10 years ? If so, what examples are there ?
Services Directive

External Action Service, particularly contribution to turning Somalia around

In multinational tax avoidance, the switch to investigating companies like Google at EU level instead of leaving it to national authorities

Responding to global crisis including fines against Libor scandal banks and launching credit markets union as well as the banking union

The TEN-T transport network

Launch of 1st Copernicus satellite as driver for digital growth

New Transparency Portal

European Patent (finally)

Global lead in reducing CO2

There's more of course but all of above improve all 28 countries and the bloc as a whole.
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  #2251  
Old 26-07-2016, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
Services Directive

External Action Service, particularly contribution to turning Somalia around

In multinational tax avoidance, the switch to investigating companies like Google at EU level instead of leaving it to national authorities

Responding to global crisis including fines against Libor scandal banks and launching credit markets union as well as the banking union

The TEN-T transport network

Launch of 1st Copernicus satellite as driver for digital growth

New Transparency Portal

European Patent (finally)

Global lead in reducing CO2

There's more of course but all of above improve all 28 countries and the bloc as a whole.
Yes , but apart from that, what have they done 😀
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  #2252  
Old 26-07-2016, 05:24 PM
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Don't worry.

If you lose your job, you can sleep well in the knowledge that we have taken back control and our borders.

If Boris can get a job post brexit, so can you. If you can't, then as Shamone eloquently puts it, you are merely a thicko and it wasn't meant to be. At 22 years old, as the future of this nation, you were probably going to become a tax evading highrider, so you probably deserve it anyway.

I personally suspect that many of the leave voters who complained about lack of jobs are thickos too.

Oh, and I just noticed you go to Uni as well.

Biggin, it seems to me this guy may be work shy and a waster. You reckon he even had a job?
Just seen this. I left university a year ago, got a degree, and now it's official. The company has seen a big loss due to people not booking holidays over economic uncertainty. Before Brexit the company was in far better shape and was improving. EasyJet have had the same, they've suspended my job application citing the "economic climate" after the vote.

But apparently nationalism is more important than economic prosperity, economic security, and job creation...
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  #2253  
Old 26-07-2016, 05:28 PM
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Yeah, the whole London thing is mind-boggling to us (I include myself, though I am a Londoner I moved away 26 years ago). Even when I moved it seemed to me that the housing market was overheated. I spent a few years in the 80s squatting in London around Ladbroke Grove, Queens Park and Harrow Road, and between squats and housing associations, the edge was taken off property prices for the long term and incorrigible impecunious (like me). But the location obsession is particularly sharp in London - although we have trendy areas in Madrid and Barcelona (and the most ridiculously expensive part of Madrid is, of course, where all the Brits live - except me, obviously) - prices are driven here much more by space, light and amenities.

It would be great if Brexit leads to the UK government spreading investment round the country and the City becoming less of a driving force, with deLondonisation. You would probably all end up poorer but happier. The pessimistic flipside of that is a deregulatory and desperate race to the bottom.

I don't believe that most European countries want to gratuitously put the boot in to the UK - Spain particularly has many of its children living there and a lot of your graniies over here. As that article points out, the UK is also our fourth most important EU market for exports, after Germany, France and Italy; but as you become poorer, that importance will ebb and flow and so will that immigration which so bothers the good burghers of Boston.
Great post Mark. Its the same here. Spanish friends with kids at uni doing English. Working holidays sorted, but now wondering what will happen. I find the it strange that so many Brits think the Spanish are uneducated. The youngsters here will get a grip on their Country one day, get rid of the leadership dross and take Spain forward.
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  #2254  
Old 26-07-2016, 05:39 PM
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I find the it strange that so many Brits think the Spanish are uneducated. The youngsters here will get a grip on their Country one day
Aye. The global crisis put paid to the construction boom which tempted too many Spanish youth away from education as pay was so good & readily available. Since 2010, Spain has reversed that trend and is improving enough to be nearing the UK on some indicators. Apart from all that, the young people I've spoken to in Coin not only have good foreign language skills but also are very politically aware.
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  #2255  
Old 26-07-2016, 05:44 PM
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I wouldn't necessarily assume Britain will become poorer if we Brexit, however, the measures that we would take to avoid it will not be what most leave voters would think acceptable. If that happens then the left and the working class Brexit right will be well and truly shafted by big business.
Yes - I think we agree; it's a choice. You could either go in the direction of being a country which looks wealthy from the outside but ever more accentuated division between the wealthy and the poor (this would be the "sign whatever trade deal the US puts in front of us", Liam Foxy kind of choice), or like I say, ostensibly poorer but better reconciled with itself.

I think the middle path of enhancing workers' rights and growth lay / lies inside the EU.

But this is just speculation from me. In a way I guess and although Brexit rather buggers me around, it's none of my business.
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  #2256  
Old 26-07-2016, 06:18 PM
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Aye. The global crisis put paid to the construction boom which tempted too many Spanish youth away from education as pay was so good & readily available. Since 2010, Spain has reversed that trend and is improving enough to be nearing the UK on some indicators. Apart from all that, the young people I've spoken to in Coin not only have good foreign language skills but also are very politically aware.
It would be good if Kettle on here, was to pop back to Malaga and have a butchers. He went to Uni here, 13years odd ago.
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  #2257  
Old 26-07-2016, 06:37 PM
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Do they really believe that ? Have they seen much realistic improvement in the last, say, 10 years ? If so, what examples are there ?
Strangely enough, yes. They see the EU investment in hydro-electric power, Internet accessibility, dam and reservoir construction, tunnels, bridges, rail. Roads, avalanche and flood protection, agricultural technology. They connect these improvements with the EU because there are bloody great signs everywhere, and they know that a lot of these advances wouldn't have occurred if left to their own regional and central government. Our scientific and medical research capabilities are just about to take a massive hit. Like the Austrians, I don't have much faith in our government to take up the slack. Do you?
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  #2258  
Old 26-07-2016, 06:41 PM
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Just seen this. I left university a year ago, got a degree, and now it's official. The company has seen a big loss due to people not booking holidays over economic uncertainty. Before Brexit the company was in far better shape and was improving. EasyJet have had the same, they've suspended my job application citing the "economic climate" after the vote.

But apparently nationalism is more important than economic prosperity, economic security, and job creation...
For some, it was perhaps less a vote for an idea of the future, and more - Cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war.
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Old 26-07-2016, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
Aye. The global crisis put paid to the construction boom which tempted too many Spanish youth away from education as pay was so good & readily available. Since 2010, Spain has reversed that trend and is improving enough to be nearing the UK on some indicators. Apart from all that, the young people I've spoken to in Coin not only have good foreign language skills but also are very politically aware.
Younger Europeans have always struck me as more politically aware than their British counterparts, until now at least.
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Old 26-07-2016, 06:47 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus mickus View Post
It would be good if Kettle on here, was to pop back to Malaga and have a butchers. He went to Uni here, 13years odd ago.
Has the local branch of the Pompidou Centre opened yet?
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