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  #1861  
Old 02-11-2017, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
And the NI Assembly was suspended.

Unrelated, as you say.
Because the 2 sides who are meant to work together and govern together refuse to do so, so not really related
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  #1862  
Old 02-11-2017, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by civil eagle View Post
Putting these ministers in prison seems total madness from the Spanish government even if they believe that the Catalans are guilty of rebellion locking up your political opponents is undemocratic plain and simple & will only inflame things
Could be worse. They haven't tied one of them to a chair and shot them yet.
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  #1863  
Old 02-11-2017, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by civil eagle View Post
Because the 2 sides who are meant to work together and govern together refuse to do so, so not really related
Yes, they should have just seceded and they would have been left alone.
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  #1864  
Old 02-11-2017, 11:07 PM
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This is not going to end well after today's arrests .
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  #1865  
Old 02-11-2017, 11:16 PM
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It has not been going to end well for some weeks.
Meanwhile, Urdangarín, Rato and Pujol are still to step inside a prison.
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  #1866  
Old 03-11-2017, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by civil eagle View Post
Putting these ministers in prison seems total madness from the Spanish government even if they believe that the Catalans are guilty of rebellion locking up your political opponents is undemocratic plain and simple & will only inflame things
Well maybe they are actually guilty of sedition? From a disinterested perspective, there's certainly a case to answer. Declaring independence on the basis of a disputed and clearly unreliable and undemocratic illegal plebiscite is very provocative and would be punishable in most countries, I would've thought.
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  #1867  
Old 03-11-2017, 10:11 AM
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Oh, I’m pretty sure they are guilty.
There are two problems here. Firstly, the government has intervened to make sure this case is tried in the tamest court in the land, the one subject to govt interference, and the cases have been set to put these guys and the two Jordis before them, in fromt of the judge most likely to send them down.
Secondly, they’ve been refused bail and sent down, to make sure they get a taste of the nick. There are people (for example the three I named above) who have been convicted of fraud and corruption on a grand scale, who have yet to spend a night in chokey. One of them is a royal, another one is a luminary of Rajoy’s PP party, and the other a former President of Catalunya and founder of Puigdemont’s party, the man who first gave power to the PP, in Aznar’s day.
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  #1868  
Old 03-11-2017, 10:21 AM
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Secondly, they’ve been refused bail and sent down, to make sure they get a taste of the nick. .
If I heard the news right, they were refused bail because they were deemed to be a flight risk. Given Puigdemont's actions, that does not seem to be an unreasonable conclusion.
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  #1869  
Old 03-11-2017, 11:14 AM
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So has Spain basically won this argument now? New elections and things settle down again? I haven't heard much about further protests.
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  #1870  
Old 03-11-2017, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
Oh, I’m pretty sure they are guilty.
There are two problems here. Firstly, the government has intervened to make sure this case is tried in the tamest court in the land, the one subject to govt interference, and the cases have been set to put these guys and the two Jordis before them, in fromt of the judge most likely to send them down.
Secondly, they’ve been refused bail and sent down, to make sure they get a taste of the nick. There are people (for example the three I named above) who have been convicted of fraud and corruption on a grand scale, who have yet to spend a night in chokey. One of them is a royal, another one is a luminary of Rajoy’s PP party, and the other a former President of Catalunya and founder of Puigdemont’s party, the man who first gave power to the PP, in Aznar’s day.
I have to applaud your contributions to this thread. Always my first stop to get updates on this fluid and complex situation. Have some rep!
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  #1871  
Old 03-11-2017, 11:45 AM
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Thanks!
I only really want to avoid the British getting all snooty about what's going on and buying into this "What do you expect from a bunch of fascists'" line.
It's definitely a flawed democracy, like all the others. And one of the big flaws is the governing party, PP, which runs a very long way to the right.
On the other hand, I have no respect for the underlying tenets of catalan nationalism although, of course, I have a lot of time for people who have been drawn to that side of the barricades in this instance.
I'm what they call an "equidistonto" over here.
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  #1872  
Old 03-11-2017, 11:50 AM
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  #1873  
Old 03-11-2017, 12:49 PM
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I think even a Yorkshireman can probably translate that.
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  #1874  
Old 03-11-2017, 01:11 PM
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Haven't the recent events tipped over your balancing act? We're in this thing where each ratcheting up of anti democratic powers can be explained and justified legally by constitutional swats, but taken as a whole and with more to come, the dictatorial drift is clear. In lock step, the lust for punishment among anti Catalan Spaniards seems to be growing too.

The other day we had Spain's military chief talking freely about his NATO backed plans to crush Catalan separatism. He talked of the army's magnificent record protecting Spain over hundreds of years, deliberately making no exception for the Franco era. What's more of a concern, the army winking at Franco, or some people over here overdoing the fascist analogy on the internet?
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  #1875  
Old 03-11-2017, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
Thanks!
I only really want to avoid the British getting all snooty about what's going on and buying into this "What do you expect from a bunch of fascists'" line.
It's definitely a flawed democracy, like all the others. And one of the big flaws is the governing party, PP, which runs a very long way to the right.
On the other hand, I have no respect for the underlying tenets of catalan nationalism although, of course, I have a lot of time for people who have been drawn to that side of the barricades in this instance.
I'm what they call an "equidistonto" over here.
I'd like to echo that thanks - most illuminating posts.

I have wanted to ask, and I may have missed something, how this affects you and your family directly?
Has it made you question whether or not you remain in Spain in the long term?
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  #1876  
Old 03-11-2017, 01:39 PM
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The elections in December will be a farce if this continues. It wouldn't surprise me if they banned pro independence parties.
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  #1877  
Old 04-11-2017, 11:12 AM
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Press Release from Belgian prosecutor, about arrest warrant for Puigdemont

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  #1878  
Old 04-11-2017, 11:17 AM
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That will be a pretty good test of the Spanish prosecutor’s case.
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  #1879  
Old 04-11-2017, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elephant with mouse gyp View Post
Haven't the recent events tipped over your balancing act? We're in this thing where each ratcheting up of anti democratic powers can be explained and justified legally by constitutional swats, but taken as a whole and with more to come, the dictatorial drift is clear. In lock step, the lust for punishment among anti Catalan Spaniards seems to be growing too.

The other day we had Spain's military chief talking freely about his NATO backed plans to crush Catalan separatism. He talked of the army's magnificent record protecting Spain over hundreds of years, deliberately making no exception for the Franco era. What's more of a concern, the army winking at Franco, or some people over here overdoing the fascist analogy on the internet?
That’s exactly the poison of nationalism, isn’t it? Destroying shades, dividing everything smack dab down the middle, Catalans and Spaniards, for us or against us.
Barcelona was the first city I chose to live in rather than being my home town or where I studied. It was a place I fell for. I still have a lot of friends there and I still visit it a lot. I don’t know the rest of Catalunya nearly as well. It has been terribly harmed and diminished by this movement over the last fifteen years, more so over the last ten, and hideously over the last five. Many friends have simply left, all have lost friends, most are looking for a way out. The last thing I could do with a clear conscience is sign up to either side of the divide, or let it into my life or help it poison the rest of the country.
I was in Bilbao last week, with a lot of friends and companions from all over Spain. I hadn’t been there for twenty years. In that time ETA has disbanded, the nationalist vote has withered, and the city has changed utterly. As though the curtains had been opened, really. The Catalans I was with were actually jealous. Imagine that - Barceloneses feeling envy of any other city in the world, and especially dark, dank old Bilbao.
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  #1880  
Old 04-11-2017, 03:23 PM
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