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  #61  
Old 18-04-2012, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by East-End Eagle
The elimination of the Kulaks was quite deliberate. There was clear racial genocide in the USSR too.

It amazes me that at certain rallies etc you see young students, or activists flying soviet flags. I actually find it pretty insulting, as I would nazi flags etc. I just wonder if these people have any idea what Mao and Stalin did?
True, there are plenty of apologists around though that will try to argue against that.
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  #62  
Old 18-04-2012, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE
I reckon it's because circumstances made Stalin our ally when Hitler was our enemy; and the Nazi attrocities were more immediately apparent than the Communist ones.

The abuses in the Congo are not very well known, and I know little by way of detail. To what extent was the cruelty the deliberate policy of Leopold?
True actually the recent genocides that have taken place in Africa, are pretty much not taught, the great african war etc.
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  #63  
Old 18-04-2012, 02:35 PM
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I am not sure why we are comparing atrocities be it Nazi, Communist, Japanese, Congolese, Catholic, Protestant or whatever. They are all appaling and just confirm mans inhumanity to man.
Whilst working in Berlin I had the opportunity to visit Sachsenhausen or Sachsenhausen-Oranienburg, a German concentration camp in Oranienburg, just to the north of Berlin. It was used for political prisoners (Communists) from 1936 to the end of the Third Reich in May, 1945, but also housed criminals, homosexuals and Jews. It was also used to train SS officers before they moved to other camps. In the early years of the war the SS practiced methods of mass killing there that were later used in the Nazi death camps. Of the roughly 30,000 wartime victims at Sachsenhausen, most were Russian prisoners of war.

Ironically however, after World War II, when Oranienburg was in the Soviet Occupation Zone, the structure was used as an NKVD special camp until 1950. The 60,000 people interned over five years included 6,000 German officers transferred from Western Allied camps. Others were Nazi functionaries, anti-Communists and Russians, including Nazi collaborators. By the time the camp was closed in the spring of 1950, at least 12,000 had died of malnutrition and disease.

I don't think one regime was worse than the other, they were both appalling.
I do know that I will never be the same after having walked around the one remaining camp hut or the area around the gas ovens.
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  #64  
Old 18-04-2012, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE
The abuses in the Congo are not very well known, and I know little by way of detail. To what extent was the cruelty the deliberate policy of Leopold?
At the time Congo was not a colony of Belgium, rather a privately owned country by Leopold. The policy was entirely deliberate. The place almost bankrupted him twice and he was determined it would make money.
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  #65  
Old 18-04-2012, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adlerhorst
At the time Congo was not a colony of Belgium, rather a privately owned country by Leopold. The policy was entirely deliberate. The place almost bankrupted him twice and he was determined it would make money.
It's clear that his need for money encouraged depravity. But it's not clear that he was directly responsible for the acts themselves is it?

He just set high targets and had a blind eye to how they were achieved.
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  #66  
Old 18-04-2012, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
It's clear that his need for money encouraged depravity. But it's not clear that he was directly responsible for the acts themselves is it?

He just set high targets and had a blind eye to how they were achieved.
That is a bit like saying Hitler wasn't directly responsible for the Holocaust. I know people have made that argument, but it is not one I particularly subscribe to.

Similarly with Leopold, not one I particularly subscribe to. It is almost impossible to reasonably argue he did not know how it was achieved, and what was going on.
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  #67  
Old 18-04-2012, 05:56 PM
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[QUOTE=weltklasse][quote=Il Padrino]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveyHawking
Or the war crimes committed by the Japanese Empire in WWII again something they have never apologised for?

yes the japanesse made several apologies

To view the link you have to Register or Login
A lot of which ring hollow somehow. The Japanese seem to have committed a long list of atrocities against Chinese people in the first half of the 20th Century.

Last edited by Louis; 18-04-2012 at 06:00 PM.
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  #68  
Old 18-04-2012, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adlerhorst
That is a bit like saying Hitler wasn't directly responsible for the Holocaust. .
No, it really isn't.

I have read Fatherland, you know.
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  #69  
Old 18-04-2012, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
No, it really isn't.

I have read Fatherland, you know.
Yes, it really is. It is the very relevant intentionalism vs functionalism argument.
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  #70  
Old 18-04-2012, 06:07 PM
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I am not arguing about his culpability (we agree on that). But I am suggesting that direct intent (let's kill some congolese) was absent.

Do we have any evidence of intent?
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  #71  
Old 18-04-2012, 06:11 PM
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  #72  
Old 18-04-2012, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
I am not arguing about his culpability (we agree on that). But I am suggesting that direct intent (let's kill some congolese) was absent.

Do we have any evidence of intent?
Which was precisely my point on the comparison with Hitler and the functionalism / intentionalism point. Brozart and Mommsen (functionalists) would argue broadly that about Hitler in that there was not originally a direct plan to kill some Jews.

As for evidence, there isn't that much as most of it was destroyed prior to the handover to Belgium in 1908. King Leopold's Ghost is a pretty reasonable book on the subject.
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  #73  
Old 18-04-2012, 06:23 PM
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Hmmm.

I spit on functionalists. (Or rather Structuralists, which is what I was taught Mommsen was).
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  #74  
Old 18-04-2012, 06:26 PM
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function of the structure (or lack thereof), innit.
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  #75  
Old 18-04-2012, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adlerhorst
function of the structure (or lack thereof), innit.
It sounds like Germanic english - I bet the German word is funktionstrukturbittelbahn or some such...
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  #76  
Old 18-04-2012, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santos-er
The mid-late 21st century will see war and genocide on a scale never known before. But it won't be down to beliefs or politics - it will be over food and water.
The sooner we all accept Malthus was right, the sooner this sort of thing will be avoided.
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  #77  
Old 18-04-2012, 06:43 PM
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Malthus was a plum.
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  #78  
Old 19-04-2012, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chav_hater
The sooner we all accept Malthus was right, the sooner this sort of thing will be avoided.
Who was Malthus?
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  #79  
Old 19-04-2012, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis
Who was Malthus?
a plum
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  #80  
Old 19-04-2012, 01:25 PM
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[QUOTE=Louis][QUOTE=weltklasse]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Padrino
A lot of which ring hollow somehow. The Japanese seem to have committed a long list of atrocities against Chinese people in the first half of the 20th Century.
And a lot of things that happened (Nanking, comfort girls) are flat out denied by some sections of society
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