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  #55261  
Old 07-12-2017, 06:51 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Johnybegood View Post
I find myself agreeing a lot with Kolinkins. Prior to the referendum I heard a great deal of generalised racism although ofcourse no-one ever admits it. There were a few common denominators e.g. the right wing press. The comments were usually broad generalisations about Eastern Europeans but also old colonial bigotry e.g about pakistanis or afro Caribbeans. I never really bothered to correct them as I thought that they were just fairly harmless bigots.....but then roll on the referendum campaign and the very same people (including my brother and father in law) suddenly found a cause through a campaign that was about 75% driven by a negative immigration angle. We saw posters of Syrian refugees (eerily like those used by (Joseph Goebels), threats of the UK being taken over by Islam as Turkey would imminently be joining the EU, slogans saying our health service, schools can't cope and wages are being driven down by immigrants. Some referred to the mass rapes in Germany as an example of how immigrants posed a threat to our wives and daughters. People pointing to the new Polish shop on their high street as an example of how immigrants were stealing their cultural identity.....none of which could be borne out by the facts e.g. that it is the older British pensioners putting a strain on the nhs as they live longer and drugs become more expensive or that the % immigrant crime rate is halve that of British nationals, but the fear and misinformation in the campaign culminated in the murder of Jo Cox and the surge in hate crime.
We all saw this during the referendum, some chose to be appalled by it, but others embraced it, that the country's ills was all due to immigrants
So post referendum I and many other 'remoaners' take a very different approach to racism even if it is dressed up as acceptable and I have very little to do with those who advocate it (including those in my own family). I am quite happy to talk about immigration and those leave voters who were mugged off with the promise of £350m for the nhs, I.e. not every leave voter is racist. But as we leave the EU and as David Davis now admits its going to be as bad as the finacial crisis which is 5-10% of gdp (150-300billion) and we lose jobs, the economy suffers, there is less money for public services then surely if it we were prepared to blame immigrants then surely it is fair that those same racists will now be called out for what they are - just truly vile human beings who have inflicted terrible damage to this country.
Spot on.
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  #55262  
Old 07-12-2017, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by GJN View Post
I am sick of Brexit. I still think a second referendum is inevitable because neither side will ever give up. It makes no sense to leave the EU in name only for everything to remain the same.

Either have what I conclude is a logical Brexit (leaving all EU institutions) with all the risks, and over time, the rewards of Brexit. Or remain and shape the EU to the British agenda. What is happening now makes no sense at all.
We have had many years 40+ to shape the EU, we failed miserably frequently plus the EU wouldnt let us change the EU. The only change the EU want is to a more dictatorial more federal more sterile EU superstate. No sane person wants that.
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  #55263  
Old 07-12-2017, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by eddieskyclad View Post
I'm well aware of what paradigm change means. And it does not mean recession. He was simply saying a new paradigm would be needed.

You can infer that he meant there would be a recession but he did not state or even imply that it would.
Come on, why would he use that example if he just meant there would be significant change?
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  #55264  
Old 07-12-2017, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Percy Dalton View Post
no need for a second vote on leaving as if the EU big wigs get their way we will be off anyway of kicked out by 2025, Martin Schulz has finally let the EU cat well and truly out of the bag – pushing for a full United States of Europe by 2025. He said today

"A convention shall draft this treaty in close cooperation with the civil society and the people. Its results will then be submitted to all member states. Any state that won’t ratify this treaty will automatically leave the EU."

If this is the route they are taking, it could be a very small European Union. Thank God we are leaving.”
Double post. But under a different user name.
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  #55265  
Old 07-12-2017, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Most of the left in labour support remain and FOM, including nearly all the unions and Corbyn and McDonnell.

Brexit is also supported by the elite. Business leaders, Trump, the Tory right.
Trump and the Tory right, yes. But not business leaders surely?
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  #55266  
Old 07-12-2017, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by civil eagle View Post
I maybe miss understanding you (I hope I am) but are you blaming the collapse of the German economy in the 1920s on the Jews!!!!
No he's saying the opposite. That the same bigots who blamed the Jews now blame migrants.
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  #55267  
Old 07-12-2017, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Percy Dalton View Post
An important message from Labour leave today

"Remainers are now engaged in a full frontal assault against the will of British people. On Tuesday night a grand banquet was held in London and the guest speakers were Remoaner glitterati: Chuka Umunna, Anna Soubry and Nick Clegg. They attended a £2000 a table dinner made up of City fat cats, europhiles and bankers all seeking to overturn the democratic EU referendum result.

Playing fast and loose with democracy is dangerous and anti-democrat, job-seekers like Nick Clegg hold the will of the people in utter contempt.

The Remain campaign are organised. They have effective national campaigns and most worryingly - they are well funded.

When the so-called meaningful vote takes place in Parliament, it will be Labour MPs who determine whether Brexit happens or whether it falls.The Remainers could rebel and Brexit could then fall. It is therefore of critical and vital importance that we continue to campaign within the Labour Party and the Trade Union movement to keep Brexit alive and strong."

Sadly the party is split in this issue between the Blair right of the party and the real left, those who really care about the average man and woman in this country, the people Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Peter Shore, Barbara Castle and Dennis Skinner have fought and still fight for and stood firm against the EU which has always and continues to try and fool ordinary people across Europe.
Quite, They dont want their Champers getting more expensive due to #Brexit. Selfish tossers.
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  #55268  
Old 07-12-2017, 06:55 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Baffled Bob 2 View Post
Trump and the Tory right, yes. But not business leaders surely?
Dyson and Wetherspoons.
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  #55269  
Old 07-12-2017, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by civil eagle View Post
I maybe miss understanding you (I hope I am) but are you blaming the collapse of the German economy in the 1920s on the Jews!!!!
Er no. Look at my last sentence. Biggot, Farage and the EDL blame migrants and the EU for everything they think is wrong with the UK. I guess they would have supported the sentiment of the German fascists.
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  #55270  
Old 07-12-2017, 07:20 PM
Harry Bassett Harry Bassett is offline
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Originally Posted by civil eagle View Post
Pre EU trade worked Well?
The first of the European organisations was the European Coal and Steel organisation that set up joint administration of the coal fields of the Saar by France, Germany and the Benelux countries. These were areas that Germany and France had fought over 3 times in 70 years twice resulting in World Wars.
Since the ECSC was set up Germany and France haven't been to war with each other in nearly 70 years
I do not know how old you but you have taken my quote and distorted it. I have also personally lived through out the second world war and know the consequences but do not consider that because the Germans like a barny that we should have moved beyond a common market at most. World trade was working very well and generally the French particularly De Gaulle had vetoed several British attempts to join.

The fact that the Germans and French will remain in place should ease your mind about a future war as I suspect it does for most people.

Pre EU world trade worked well was what I said, I did not make reference to EU trade.
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  #55271  
Old 07-12-2017, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Biggineagle View Post
We have had many years 40+ to shape the EU, we failed miserably
Yeah, apart from all that Single Market thing...
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  #55272  
Old 07-12-2017, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Percy Dalton View Post
no need for a second vote on leaving as if the EU big wigs get their way we will be off anyway of kicked out by 2025, Martin Schulz has finally let the EU cat well and truly out of the bag – pushing for a full United States of Europe by 2025. He said today

"A convention shall draft this treaty in close cooperation with the civil society and the people. Its results will then be submitted to all member states. Any state that won’t ratify this treaty will automatically leave the EU."

If this is the route they are taking, it could be a very small European Union. Thank God we are leaving.”
Shock, horror, failing German political leader tries to grab the headlines.
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  #55273  
Old 07-12-2017, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
Yeah, apart from all that Single Market thing...
And we now have naff all chance of changing anything in the EU in the future. No point in staying in to be ordered about, told what to do and lose even more sovereignty. Best we Leave. A clean cut.
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  #55274  
Old 07-12-2017, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Percy Dalton View Post
no need for a second vote on leaving as if the EU big wigs get their way we will be off anyway of kicked out by 2025, Martin Schulz has finally let the EU cat well and truly out of the bag – pushing for a full United States of Europe by 2025. He said today

"A convention shall draft this treaty in close cooperation with the civil society and the people. Its results will then be submitted to all member states. Any state that won’t ratify this treaty will automatically leave the EU."

If this is the route they are taking, it could be a very small European Union. Thank God we are leaving.”
Why have you not quoted Merkel's rebuttal?
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  #55275  
Old 07-12-2017, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dave_who_ru View Post
Shock, horror, failing German political leader tries to grab the headlines.
Well, quite. Why are the views considered important of a German party leader who came in to win but set his party back? Schultz only cares about Schultz but let's assume his view matter & review his position to date on a federal EU: he was in favour, then he was against, and is now in favour. He's gambling enough of the German electorate will back his view. He's wrong. They have a federal Germany. They won't surrender any of that.
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  #55276  
Old 07-12-2017, 07:50 PM
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Old 07-12-2017, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Biggineagle View Post
And we now have naff all chance of changing anything in the EU in the future.
Not if we leave no but Leavers have never properly explained what changes they want so I think the whole EU reform idea is a red herring. Never mind, you can now put all your passion into reforming the UK like opposing executive power weakening a sovereign Parliament. Oh wait...
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Old 07-12-2017, 07:53 PM
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Well, quite. Why are the views considered important of a German party leader who came in to win but set his party back?
Because there is plenty of support in the EU for an increasingly stronger dictatorial federal EU, and that is the way it will go, not the other, and the UK doesnt want that.
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Old 07-12-2017, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
Not if we leave no
Nor if we stay. Harsh but true and you know and realise that.
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Old 07-12-2017, 07:57 PM
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Isn't Labour leave just Kate Hoey who somehow ended up in the wrong party when she should be in the DUP
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