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  #1  
Old 08-02-2002, 10:30 PM
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Jordan backs standing at Selhurst

Palace chairman Simon Jordan grew up cheering the Eagles on the terraces when standing was the sign of the true fan.
Government legislation has led to all-seater stadia but Jordan said this week he would support any moves to bring back standing in certain areas at Selhurst Park.
A poll conducted by the Daily Echo showed that 78.9 per cent of 900 Southampton fans want to see safe standing areas at the Friends Provident St Mary’s stadium.
It is strongly felt in many quarters that it is now time for the Government to review Lord Justice Taylor’s Report 12 years on from the Hillsborough disaster.
MP Roger Godsiff is drafting a Football Spectators Bill which calls for fans to have the choice of safe standing areas. It will be presented to the House of Commons for the third time on April 12, which is just three days before the anniversary of Hillsborough.
Jordan commented: “Whilst I would love, as a fan, to see the return of standing areas, I have to be aware of my responsibilities as a club chairman. After Hillsborough and Heysel a law was passed putting the onus on clubs to ensure fans were seated at all times. I know it has not always proved popular but we have to uphold the law.
“But if a law could be passed which could embrace standing in certain areas I would support it. As I said, I love standing.”
Jordan warned, however, that even if standing was brought back, the club would have to see whether it would be economically viable to instal standing areas. “We have to examine the cost implications. Building all-seater stadiums has cost clubs millions of pounds and I am not sure clubs would like to spend money all over again,” he added.
He reminded fans that it was the Government’s decision, not his, to do away with the traditional standing areas.
Late last year Jordan had to send out a warning to the fans that two sections of the Holmesdale were in danger of being closed down if they refused to heed pleas to sit down at matches.
He had been told by the council and the police that the fans were breaching the law.
Jordan gave the fans two matches to return to seating mode and they responded positively. His latitude was evidently prompted by his own memories as a standing supporter.
What do Advertiser readers think about a return to safe standing areas? Write to us or send us your views on our websites.

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Old 11-02-2002, 02:18 PM
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YES, YES, YES!!!!


Thank you Mr Jordan!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let's work on this!!!
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Old 11-02-2002, 02:26 PM
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From www.safestanding.com

Arguments re: SAFE STANDING

2.3 You might pick a few points from the list below to add to your letter - putting them in your own words. Keep it very brief - you want them to read it.


NOT A RETURN TO THE OLD TERRACING OR FENCES/PENS
[1] We are NOT talking about a return to terraces of old or the dangerous fences that penned fans in. We are looking for a feasibility study to be carried out into modern safe standing areas using the latest technology. If the result of this feasibility study is positive under current legislation it would still not be possible even to carry out a trial of the technology. Therefore we would like to transfer the power to impose an "all seater only" restriction from the Secretary of State to the local (safety) authorities, the clubs and the supporters themselves - the people most directly affected by such decisions. That is the aim of the Private Members Bill.

FREEDOM OF CHOICE FOR THOSE WHO WANT IT
[2] Football supporters wishing to stand want the choice to stand safely during a game. It is about freedom of choice for these individuals. Supporters throughout England and the UK have continued to stand throughout the 90's and into 2001. Simply banning standing is not addressing the issue realistically. Offering the option of safe standing areas for those who wish to use them is the best solution from a safety viewpoint.


BETTER FOR THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO STAND TOO
[3] Its not just about supporters who wish to stand. Supporters who wish to remain seated throughout do not want other supporters standing up in front of them. Standing in seated areas is also far less safe than standing in designated standing areas. But it will continue to happen until supporters are offered choice.

STANDING CREATES THE BEST ENVIROMENT FOR A GOOD ATMOSPHERE
[4] Standing improves the atmosphere in a ground. This is obvious, but I mention it because some people (particularly those with a vested financial interest) have tried to deny this. Football is a passionate game and it is only natural that people jump to their feet or wish to stand. It even happens in the House of Commons occasionally!

ACCESS FOR THE YOUNG & FINANCIALLY EXCLUDED
[5] Safe Standing could provide access for disenfranchised and young supporters who have become excluded through higher pricing. You can safely accommodate more people into the same area if you provide safe standing facilities as opposed to seating.

PEOPLE STAND ANYWAY - THEY WOULD BE SAFER IN A SAFE STANDING AREA
[6] People do and always will stand during a game - in all seater areas this is obviously less safe than a designated safe standing area - even the most vociferous opponents (and there aren't many) of standing accept this.

BANNING STANDING IS ILLOGICAL
[7] Safety officials accept that there will be standing during 'moments of extreme excitement'. In fact these moments are the least safe times, so to have a ban on standing at other times is illogical. To not offer an alternative safe standing option is irresponsible and potentially negligent. Many safety officials are in favour of reviewing a safe standing option for this reason but their hands are tied by the current legislation (Statutory Instrument).

SAFE STANDING WORKS IN "WORLD CUP BID" WINNING STADIA
[8] Safe Standing areas have been operational in Germany (who recently defeated England for the 2006 world cup bid - using these very stadia) for many years and have been a massive success.

A CO-OPERATIVE RELATIONSHIP
[9] Reports on the German stadiums clearly show that there is easier safety access in these areas of safe standing. They are also extremely popular with the supporters. German clubs actually consulted their supporters to se what they wanted and so benefited from their direct experience as well as creating a co-operative relationship which makes safety and policing much easier to implement. In the UK we have always tried to impose regulations rather than "policing by consent". The result of this policy is predictable in. Supporter relations and effectiveness of crowd management suffer.

THE FLA SAID THE GERMAN MODEL COULD WORK IN UK
[10] The Football Licensing Authority have recently visited Germany to inspect the German concept of Safe Standing and reported back that these ideas COULD be implemented in England with minor changes. Although you wouldn't think this judging by the spin that former DCMS Secretary of State put on the report after intercepting it before its publication.

FANS WANT IT
[11] The fans want it, not all fans, of course. But those who don't want it would not be forced to use such areas. It would purely be an option for those who DO want it. It is the fans who will be affected by these policy decisions so why are others trying to remove this free choice from those wish to have the option? Not only do both the national fans bodies support choice over safe standing but it is also supported by independent supporters clubs across the country and has received overwhelming backing in every independent poll of fans. And of course the important fact in any case is not how many fans don't want it - they won't be forced to use it. The important fact is that 100% of fans who want safe standing for themselves would support free choice over the option!

ARE THERE ANY NEGATIVES? HOOLIGANISM?
[12] There is no evidence that terraces themselves, let alone the new technology safe standing areas, led or would lead to increased hooliganism. This is governed by other factors - and certainly hooliganism inside stadia has been almost eliminated by the use of CCTV and better stewarding and policing. The improved relations which would result from consultation before implementation of safe standing areas - should all parties agree (safety, club, fans) at a local level - would produce much more effective crowd control. This is because instead of the tension which is caused by the conflict which occurs when enthusiastic supporters are continually harangued to sit down you would benefit from the policing by consent environment which follows consultation.

WHAT ABOUT HILLSBOROUGH?
[13] Nothing is worth the risk of repeating the Hillsborough disaster. Contrary to popular belief Lord Justice Taylor's report didn't conclude that standing was inherently unsafe - rather he said that at the time seats were, on the whole, probably safer than standing areas. However this was of marginal significance - if not then why is it that standing is still allowed at lower (e.g. English & Welsh 2nd & 3rd division) grounds and also for example at Rugby, pop concerts and horse racing? Should these venues be closed immediately for safety reasons? Of course not. Additionally he was referring to the current state at the time more than 10 years ago - the old style terraces - not the new technology safe standing areas installed in modern stadia such as the high tech German stadia which won them the World Cup bid over England! The Hillsborough disaster was primarily a result of poor crowd management combined with bad stadium design. In terms of design it was the fences which were responsible. It would have made little difference whether supporters had been funneled into an area of seats or standing if they were still penned in by fences. In fact one can easily imagine that the situation could have been even worse if it had been an all seater area without even the limited temporary protection afforded by crush barriers even in an old style standing area. It could not have happened at all in a new technology safe standing area where there are barriers across every row and furthermore any implementation in the UK would not pen people in with fences and would automatically implement strict control of crowd flows and numbers. So fences and crowd control were the culprits - these issues can be most satisfactorily addressed by new technology safe standing solutions but one important factor that must be taken into account in future - the supporters who are to use an area MUST be consulted on the design and stewarding issues.

A VESTED INTEREST?
[14] So why are football's fat cats and authorities trying to deny free choice to supporters? Well, for example, they're doing very nicely out of the massively inflated prices (always above & often 3 or 4 times the rate of inflation) that accompanied the move to all seater grounds and this has continued year after year. This is despite the fact that this absolutely flies in the face of Lord Justice Taylor's recommendations in his report on Hillsborough. A clue might be this - a ticket for a new technology safe standing area at a community club like Schalke 04 in Germany costs £4 whereas a seat in an all seater stadium like Tottenham's in the UK costs £34! Of course no-one can force clubs to cut prices and that is not the point of safe standing - although it might well be economically viable and would be an option for clubs should they wish to use it. However many fans would like to avail themselves of safe standing facilities even at the current prices of seats.

GH - Price doesn't matter, I just want to stand

LOCAL DECISIONS BASED ON CONSULTATION
[15] If, after consultation, the clubs, safety authorities and supporters at a local level wish to choose the new technology safe standing areas then this should not be an option which is prohibited by clumsy Central Government legislation. That is why we wish to remove the Statutory Instrument and transfer the decision making process to a local level where an informed debate can deliver the best solution from a safety viewpoint.
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Old 11-02-2002, 04:25 PM
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Re: Jordan backs standing at Selhurst

Quote:
Originally posted by tmjwat

Jordan warned, however, that even if standing was brought back, the club would have to see whether it would be economically viable to instal standing areas. “We have to examine the cost implications. Building all-seater stadiums has cost clubs millions of pounds and I am not sure clubs would like to spend money all over again,” he added.
The salient part of this article, methinks.
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Old 11-02-2002, 04:54 PM
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My thoughts exactly, Neil. Not only would he face the cost of taking out the seats, there'd also be the potential cost of putting them all back again if it went wrong.
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Old 11-02-2002, 05:00 PM
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Indeed Ian, as I said on a different thread, whilst there is plenty of support for the theory of having a choice, there is little hard evidence of any great demand amongst Palace fans (despite anti's valiant efforts) for a standing area.
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Old 11-02-2002, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
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My thoughts exactly, Neil. Not only would he face the cost of taking out the seats
I thought Scumwall started to address that problem
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Old 11-02-2002, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neil the Eagle
Indeed Ian, as I said on a different thread, whilst there is plenty of support for the theory of having a choice, there is little hard evidence of any great demand amongst Palace fans (despite anti's valiant efforts) for a standing area.
Don't agree with this - since pretty much the whole of A + B in the Holmesdale would stand if we weren't threatened with being kicked out. The obvious starting point for Jordan - *if* safe standing was ever allowed - would be to make this part of the ground the trial area.
The point about money is obviously valid, but of course in a standing area, you can fit in more fans. The ticket price would presumably be lower, but the club could still make at least the same, if not more cash than it does with this area being seated.
Besides, at the end of the day, all we're really asking for is the choice.
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Old 11-02-2002, 05:41 PM
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I would love to go back to standing, reinstating the old enclosure would be my personal preference. They could do it so you could stick your kids at the front and they could bang on the advertising hoardings like the old days.
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Old 11-02-2002, 05:48 PM
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I wrote an article on this issue for spiked online last year To view the link you have to Register or Login

As I've said on a different thread, I don't think that standing per se will improve the atmosphere. We should be looking at the excessive regulation of fan behaviour as the root cause of the problem. The imposition of all seater stadia post-Hillsborough is just one aspect of this 'sit down and shut up culture'. Personally I think that making some sections of the ground unreserved seating might be a better option (though this might only work if we also got rid of the ludicrous law prohibiting drinking in view of the pitch). I was at Sampdoria last summer - where incidentally I saw the great Lombardo again - and they, like most continental grounds I've visited, had unreserved seating. Their most vocal fans congregated in one part of the ground and made an impressive noise. People who didn't want to stand simply sat elsewhere.
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Old 11-02-2002, 07:29 PM
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It's a fair point but if these fans don't use their seats then whats the point in having them in the first place?

I'm all for standing, trial period/same price as seats or whatever. I believe that demand is there, remember that there are a whole load of fans in the currently seated blocks that do want to stand but can't at present. Chairmen in various clubs would not come out and say this sort of stuff if there wasn't a strong feeling for it - I'm glad to say that the ball appears to be well and truly rolling and we'll see standing in the future again.
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Old 11-02-2002, 07:41 PM
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If approved, we could arrange a friendly against Millwall and sell them tickets for the area of the ground where the seats are to removed
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Old 11-02-2002, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Raf


The obvious starting point for Jordan - *if* safe standing was ever allowed - would be to make this part [Blocks A&B] of the ground the trial area.
Agreed raf, but let's remember that the Holmesdale stand was never designed to accomodate standing and significant design changes would need to be incorporated. I aksed an architect about this and, in his opinion, they would need to re-model and re-inforce the whole lower tier rather than just two blocks... which will returns to my point about the lack of demand. The total of the upper seats in A+B block who consistantly stand amounts to 700 people tops. Sorry that simply isn't sufficient demand.

The best chance of getting a standing area at Selhurst would be to remodel the space in between the Arthur and Holmesdale that is currently occupied by the club crest. Although my guess is that the police would want to move the away fans to the other end of the Arthur, if that happened.
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Old 11-02-2002, 07:59 PM
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Re: From www.safestanding.com

STANDING CREATES THE BEST ENVIROMENT FOR A GOOD ATMOSPHERE
[4] Standing improves the atmosphere in a ground. This is obvious, but I mention it because some people (particularly those with a vested financial interest) have tried to deny this. Football is a passionate game and it is only natural that people jump to their feet or wish to stand. It even happens in the House of Commons occasionally!

All points are great but one above, is the one I know means alot to the many vocal fans in blocks A and B of the holmsdale.

Lets bring back standing
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Old 11-02-2002, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by anti-addick
It's a fair point but if these fans don't use their seats then whats the point in having them in the first place?

I'm all for standing, trial period/same price as seats or whatever. I believe that demand is there, remember that there are a whole load of fans in the currently seated blocks that do want to stand but can't at present. Chairmen in various clubs would not come out and say this sort of stuff if there wasn't a strong feeling for it - I'm glad to say that the ball appears to be well and truly rolling and we'll see standing in the future again.
Well if you've seen the seats in Italy you wouldn't want to sit on them either There are plastic moulds screwed onto concrete steps rather than our flipback variety. The other difference is that, because it's unallocated, people can meet up with large groups of friends - it's so much harder to generate much noise when you're scattered in ones adn twos throughout the ground.

There is a current of support for standing but the Premiership fans surveys show that support for standing has fallen steadily over the years and is now only about 14%.
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Old 11-02-2002, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Duleep

There is a current of support for standing but the Premiership fans surveys show that support for standing has fallen steadily over the years and is now only about 14%.
That figure is no way correct. That figure sounds more like asking a fan if he'd rather sit or stand, to which 14% is a fair few - likely 5000 fans in Premiership gates. The figure for those wanting a choice is up around 75% plus.

Neil, quite right, the Holmesdale could not be redeveloped, it's too steep. The Arfur on the other hand is just about the same as it was when the old enclosure was around and i'm positive that it wouldn't take much to change it back. It certainly has a shallow enough face.

As for 'safety', I understand that the upper Holmesdale breaches safety recommendations for a stand because of it's steepness. Noadesy was the cowboy that built it, can anybody confirm??
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Old 11-02-2002, 10:30 PM
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The Arthur was re-raked at the time, you can tell this by looking at the wall half way up, that used to be an 8ft drop, now its just the normal seat height.

At the time the Holmesdale was fine, but I think such regulations have been tightened up since the stand was built.
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Old 11-02-2002, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ian Hart
My thoughts exactly, Neil. Not only would he face the cost of taking out the seats, there'd also be the potential cost of putting them all back again if it went wrong.
Well why cant you leave the seats in, so they could be seated at HT or before the match or whatever, and then stand during the match? Then you wouldn't have to take out the seats to make it a genuine standing only area. It may not be perfect for it or whatever, but you could still stand

(Forgive me if this if wierd since I dont understand the whole not being able to stand if you want to concept)
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Old 11-02-2002, 10:55 PM
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The terrace days will never be relived. Look at Fulham they could fit another couple of thousand in that home stand but can't because of safety issues. The Holmesdale/Arthur Wait Enclosure atmosphere will never be replaced by safe standing it's nothing but memories.
I remember travelling to Tottenham, Arsenal coming out of the Tube/Train Stations walking down the road and hearing Eagles, Eagles, Eagles in the distance. No, it wasn't because we had just come out of the pub and made it to the game late this was at 2pm and an attempt to get a decent position on the Terrace. A full hour before the game. I remember in 91 at West Ham where we relegated them with a 2-0 victory, what a day out on a jam-packed terrace surging left,right and centre. They are great memories but thats all they are.
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Old 11-02-2002, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by anti-addick


That figure is no way correct. That figure sounds more like asking a fan if he'd rather sit or stand, to which 14% is a fair few - likely 5000 fans in Premiership gates. The figure for those wanting a choice is up around 75% plus.

14% is a few as you say. At an average ground like Derby which seats around 30,000, you are looking at 4200 fans. Which comes up to something like 9000 at Man Utd
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