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  #21  
Old 19-05-2017, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
The budget deficit was over 150bn in 2009-10 - at over 10% of GDP - the worst in the G20. It is now 52bn. Osborne did not borrow enough, not too much. Where else would Labour have cut in addition?
Whereas I am not a fan of the Blair government years, Labour actually got the economy doing much better than previous and subsequent Tory governments, creating surpluses for a couple of years, so cuts were not really necessary.

I want to see the next Labour government focussing on investment and industrial productivity in a very big way, to make our exports much more competitive, and by gosh are we going to need that, after Brexit.
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  #22  
Old 19-05-2017, 06:35 AM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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Whereas I am not a fan of the Blair government years, Labour actually got the economy doing much better than previous and subsequent Tory governments, creating surpluses for a couple of years, so cuts were not really necessary.

I want to see the next Labour government focussing on investment and industrial productivity in a very big way, to make our exports much more competitive, and by gosh are we going to need that, after Brexit.
Don't we all. The fact is though, Labour cannot on the one hand propose more spending in lots of areas and then have their soon doctors complaining about the national debt. In fact, Labour should be expanding the national debt as long as it is backed by assets. That is precisely what they are now quite rightly proposing via things like a National Investment Bank.
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Old 19-05-2017, 06:43 AM
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Don't we all. The fact is though, Labour cannot on the one hand propose more spending in lots of areas and then have their soon doctors complaining about the national debt. In fact, Labour should be expanding the national debt as long as it is backed by assets. That is precisely what they are now quite rightly proposing via things like a National Investment Bank.
There are two reasons why political commentators refer to the Osborne debt. Firstly, the Tories always accuse Labour of borrowing too much, when clearly it is a case of an even blacker pot calling the kettle black, Secondly, it is not necessariy though the quantity of borrowing but the quality. Osborne can be accused of borrowing to cover costs as a consequence of poor tax revenue returns over the last seven years, whereas Labour want to borrow for infrastructure and boosting industry, especially when interest rates are probably at the lowest now than they are ever going to be again.
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Old 19-05-2017, 06:48 AM
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There are two reasons why political commentators refer to the Osborne debt. Firstly, the Tories always accuse Labour of borrowing too much, when clearly it is a case of an even blacker pot calling the kettle black, Secondly, it is not necessariy though the quantity of borrowing but the quality. Osborne can be accused of borrowing to cover costs as a consequence of poor tax revenue returns over the last seven years, whereas Labour want to borrow for infrastructure and boosting industry, especially when interest rates are probably at the lowest now than they are ever going to be again.
Firstly I agree. Secondly, I think given the scale of the crash in 2008-9, the fact that banks were shot to pieces, the effects of the BP oil spill on dividends, the collapse of North Sea Oil production and the Eurozone banking crisis he actually borrowed too little. I think they all are promising to invest in infrastructure, however, the Tories are doing it on things that you mentioned you disagreed with - Hinckley, Heathrow and HS2.

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  #25  
Old 19-05-2017, 06:54 AM
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Does this include houses salted away in family trusts?
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  #26  
Old 19-05-2017, 07:10 AM
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Really don't get the problem with this.

As I see it, past generations didnt pay enough tax for decades due to an inability from governments to predict longer lifespans / react to it. So now the time comes to try to meet the funding gap through either:

A) massive increases in tax for those currently working
B) taxing estates once care has been given (either making care self funded or huge increases in inheritance tax).

The problem with A is it massively discriminates against those whose parents are unable to leave them a nice financial boost to insulate them against these tax increases. So effectively increasing the tax burden on those who are in lower paying jobs.

Would love you to see an alternative solutions put forward.
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  #27  
Old 19-05-2017, 07:17 AM
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The money is gonna be taken from your front pocket with an increase in PAYE or your back pocket via this or a reduction in the IHT threshold.

It's a ticking time bomb.

Just remember that "generation rent" have no houses to sell....
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  #28  
Old 19-05-2017, 07:23 AM
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I wonder what the blue rinse brigade are going to make of this.
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  #29  
Old 19-05-2017, 07:23 AM
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Not very compassionate these tories are they?

trouble is, we'll probably be stuck with the buggers for at least another decade
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Old 19-05-2017, 07:24 AM
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I wonder what the blue rinse brigade are going to make of this.
I foresee a backlash, however May will get home, although perhaps not with the expected landslide.
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  #31  
Old 19-05-2017, 07:33 AM
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Really don't get the problem with this.

As I see it, past generations didnt pay enough tax for decades due to an inability from governments to predict longer lifespans / react to it. So now the time comes to try to meet the funding gap through either:

A) massive increases in tax for those currently working
B) taxing estates once care has been given (either making care self funded or huge increases in inheritance tax).

The problem with A is it massively discriminates against those whose parents are unable to leave them a nice financial boost to insulate them against these tax increases. So effectively increasing the tax burden on those who are in lower paying jobs.

Would love you to see an alternative solutions put forward.
I put this in the General Election Thread....
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The mistake that the Tories have made is to my mind simple. To explain we have debated the wonders of the Baby Boomers what a lucky generation I come from with our houses ,pensions , how easy we have had it. How we should be helping the younger generation more. We have had the debate that pensioners have not been hit. I have argued in favour of the double lock the means testing of Winter Fuel Allowance.
Now I can see why social care costs have to be addressed, and I can see why the burden should fall on the older generation. I know the argument that we have paid taxes, NHI expecting to be looked after in old age, but I still see that its fair that the older generation contributes.
The issue though is this, for those that will be affected, we have got there finally we own the house we have a nice lifestyle a bit of money in the bank or we are sitting there just about managing with the house a guarantee that if things go pear shaped we can downsize. The kids will get the inheritance when we have gone. I tell you what though the one thing we are not doing is running up a debt we have no hope of paying. There is the crux of it there is no protection to the cost , no insurance no way of paying , because if there was we would be doing it. Anything but run up a debt on the house thats our protection, and what if I sell is there a charge on the house that the money goes to the government. The idea is fine the logic totally flawed.
The answer to my mind is this , take SE25 confession no way am I telling you lot how much I am getting, but I do know even at 13K a year he is paying income tax but if retired there is no NHI contribution. For those that are in that bracket paying tax on a pension a graduated form of NHI call it SCI (social care insurance) contributed to just by pensioners is introduced, Sure it might hit our pockets but I would suggest we would be far happier that way. Treat like tax the well off pensioners paying more. Ring fence it show its being used correctly would help as well

Edit The total income tax from pensioners is around 16.8 billion so you would need to raise an extra 4billion a year for the SCI a 25% hike in the tax bill so if your paying 1200 a year in tax it represents an extra 36 a month roughly in the next two years personnal tax allowance changes contribute half of that.
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  #32  
Old 19-05-2017, 07:39 AM
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I wonder what the blue rinse brigade are going to make of this.
It so not middle and working class Tory but will the rebel ?
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Old 19-05-2017, 07:41 AM
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Does this include houses salted away in family trusts?
No. Once a property is placed in trust, it is outside of an individual's estate.
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  #34  
Old 19-05-2017, 07:45 AM
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If you are not dead, and carry on needing social care currently, the NHS visits are free at the point of delivery. May has now made another change to this, and she is going to take retrospectively all the value of the estate up to 100000, after you die to pay for this now. How soon is she going to apply this to everyday NHS treatment for everyone? You can easily see that once the principle has been set, it can expand more easily into other areas. Would you ever trust May not to do this?

It is a brand new death tax that adversely affects a person's family lot after the death of a loved one, and should be seen for what it is, while she is still cutting CT for already rich companies.
Something along those lines occurred to me too.

It seems there is a prejudice against the elderly falling ill....quite often expressed by BBS posters as well.

If you charge a pensioner full price for care visits etc if they fall ill (e.g. cancer, dementia issues etc)...why are they being treated differently to someone much younger who could also need care visits for exactly the same illnesses?

If a 40 year old mum gets MND, would people agree that she pays for all her care and the state takes costs down to her last 100K after she dies? No, I expect at least most people wouldn't want that.

But if her 70 year old mum had the same disease, some seem to think that's somehow completely different and she should pay. What if she's married and these costs wipe out all their savings...after she dies her partner then gets to remain in the house (I think), but has no cash to live on for their remaining years, just their own pension.

At this rate, older people will be off to Dignitas or committing suicide as soon as they receive a long term illness diagnosis.

We'd be punishing people who are unlucky enough to have a long, drawn illness requiring care at the end of their lives.

Back in the days of David Cameron, I recall there was a plan to have the elderly pay for Care up to a capped limit (I think it was 70K), which seemed much fairer. People could try to budget for that in the retirement, knowing that they'd make a contribution but that it wasn't limitless.

That principle has hit the bin overnight.
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  #35  
Old 19-05-2017, 07:52 AM
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Something along those lines occurred to me too.

It seems there is a prejudice against the elderly falling ill....quite often expressed by BBS posters as well.

If you charge a pensioner full price for care visits etc if they fall ill (e.g. cancer, dementia issues etc)...why are they being treated differently to someone much younger who could also need care visits for exactly the same illnesses?

If a 40 year old mum gets MND, would people agree that she pays for all her care and the state takes costs down to her last 100K after she dies? No, I expect at least most people wouldn't want that.

But if her 70 year old mum had the same disease, some seem to think that's somehow completely different and she should pay. What if she's married and these costs wipe out all their savings...after she dies her partner then gets to remain in the house (I think), but has no cash to live on for their remaining years, just their own pension.

At this rate, older people will be off to Dignitas or committing suicide as soon as they receive a long term illness diagnosis.

We'd be punishing people who are unlucky enough to have a long, drawn illness requiring care at the end of their lives.

Back in the days of David Cameron, I recall there was a plan to have the elderly pay for Care up to a capped limit (I think it was 70K), which seemed much fairer. People could try to budget for that in the retirement, knowing that they'd make a contribution but that it wasn't limitless.

That principle has hit the bin overnight.
A lifetimes savings will be passed over to an overcharging care home , It's going to be like a goldrush for them .
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Old 19-05-2017, 07:58 AM
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Am going to try not to get too involved in this topic. It is one close to my heart both in my former profession and personally too. But I echo those that say it is a bad idea.

The honest truth is it is already a terrible system. At the moment, unless you have a spouse in your own home when you go into care, then you are already responsible for your full care costs until you have 20,000ish in your name only. House sold during your lifetime... Unless you have carefully planned accordingly, legally. So many people get totally screwed paying over 1000 A WEEK too. The so-called cap seems artificial.

My old firm CWJ (Orpington - cwj.co.uk) give great advice and fixed fees on this area. They do a monthly free seminar explaining their work too. I've seen save hundreds of thousands of pounds in action for clients, for a bit more than the average fee you'd pay for standard wills and other such provisions you consider when getting older. I get no commission or fee for saying this, I don't work there anymore, I don't even work in the industry anymore. I am just passionate about people getting a fair deal (I know this is up for debate in itself).

In fact, go to any firm listed on here under the relevant expertise listing:
To view the link you have to Register or Login

And they should be able to give similar advice. Although if the new rules go through, then they will need some time I assume to work out the details/impact.

[Note: As mentioned, I'm no longer in the field. This is NOT legal advice and what I've said might be a bit out of date as I left the industry over 5 years ago]

P.S. Don't even get me started on Lasting Power of Attorney's etc!
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Old 19-05-2017, 08:02 AM
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The suicide rate amongst the elderly will increase .
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Old 19-05-2017, 08:03 AM
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A lifetimes savings will be passed over to an overcharging care home , It's going to be like a goldrush for them .

I really don't get why people are saying this sort of thing. I can see there are unanswered questions around home care, but in terms of residential care home costs, the proposed changes seem far kinder than the current rule. My mum has had to sell her flat and will pay her own costs until her assets drop to 23k. A 100k limit would seem far more palatable.
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Old 19-05-2017, 08:05 AM
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The suicide rate amongst the elderly will increase .
And it will rain frogs.
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Old 19-05-2017, 08:24 AM
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The suicide rate amongst the elderly will increase .
And much more bed blocking in hospitals, which is already a huge problem.

Why be in any rush to move on oldie from their free hospital bed out to a care home, which they'll be paying for.
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