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  #61  
Old 04-04-2018, 01:57 PM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
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Originally Posted by Poosence View Post
Nothing much to add on this case as we don't know the circumstances etc. But it's interesting that in parts of the US similar cases would result in a murder charge for the accomplice.
Often somewhat brutally - I remember reading of a 18 year old who was involved in a break in. The home owner shot and killed on of the kids, and the 18 year old, got 57 years for felony homicide.

He could well have gotten less if he'd actually murdered his friend
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  #62  
Old 04-04-2018, 01:58 PM
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For the knee jerk reactionaries on here: following a violent death a person gets arrested if a suspect is found. The police need to investigate. It is unlikely given the circumstances that it will be taken much further and expect him to be released in pretty short order. Also following the jailing of farmer Tony Martin for shooting to death a 16 year old burglar laws have been brought in to allow for force to be used, even force that is not comparable or exceeds defensive force.

Now get back to your net curtains, and resume mumbling about 'muslims', 'blacks', 'knife crime', 'Brexit', 'soft liberal bastards' and some such.
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  #63  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:01 PM
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The old boy was 78 which means he probably voted for Brexit, so he deserved to be burgled.
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  #64  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:03 PM
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Probably hated Corbyn too. Hang the bastard.
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  #65  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scro View Post
Nope the man's home is he and his wifes safe place and if you enter it without permission i am ok with him deciding what is proportionate. Without having to over analyse whether in reality it was.

Even if that results in some loss of life. Much like if you push a bloke that has stolen your phone and he falls of his moped.
And if you proceed to then beat the bloke who's fallen off the moped to death in a sustained act of violence, you don't think that's a person who maybe society might need protection from.

I get that killing someone in self defence is a legitmate and it should be. However, context is always important - and notably people who will happily kill in cold blood is a threat to society (not to mention you only have their word they broke in. What's to stop someone picking someone up, bringing them home, then stabbing them to death - Then before they call the police, breaking an outside window).

People who kill cold bloodedly, at the first opportunity to get away with it are people we should be very worried about.

The problem is when you have a dead person, and a live person - its very hard to get both sides of the events. Now I suspect that the pensioner in question legitimately acted in self defence. It seems the most likely outcome.

Whilst I have little sympathy for the burglars of the world, its a dangerous game to assume that people are innocent because they fit the story of 'good guy vs bad guy'.

Its always complicated by reality.
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  #66  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selhurst Celtic View Post
The old boy was 78 which means he probably voted for Brexit, so he deserved to be burgled.
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  #67  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Joe Paxton View Post
For the knee jerk reactionaries on here: following a violent death a person gets arrested if a suspect is found. The police need to investigate. It is unlikely given the circumstances that it will be taken much further and expect him to be released in pretty short order. Also following the jailing of farmer Tony Martin for shooting to death a 16 year old burglar laws have been brought in to allow for force to be used, even force that is not comparable or exceeds defensive force.

Now get back to your net curtains, and resume mumbling about 'muslims', 'blacks', 'knife crime', 'Brexit', 'soft liberal bastards' and some such.
Assumptions and ill informed judgements are fine it seems. Provided they are condescending and right on enough.
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  #68  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Bizarro View Post
Why? I bet he's quite pleased with himself and is looking forward to a heroes homecoming after being treated pretty well at the local Nick.
You’d be quite pleased with yourself if you had killed someone?
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  #69  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by scro View Post
Assumptions and ill informed judgements are fine it seems.
Not so. I think the only assumptions being made on here are made by those who say that it was legitimate self-defence. I do hope it was ; but we have to wait and see.
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  #70  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rhino_mik View Post
You’d be quite pleased with yourself if you had killed someone?
You're just not hard enough to understand, sissy.
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  #71  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:20 PM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Joe Paxton View Post
For the knee jerk reactionaries on here: following a violent death a person gets arrested if a suspect is found. The police need to investigate. It is unlikely given the circumstances that it will be taken much further and expect him to be released in pretty short order. Also following the jailing of farmer Tony Martin for shooting to death a 16 year old burglar laws have been brought in to allow for force to be used, even force that is not comparable or exceeds defensive force.

Now get back to your net curtains, and resume mumbling about 'muslims', 'blacks', 'knife crime', 'Brexit', 'soft liberal bastards' and some such.
Tony Martin was convicted of manslaughter (having his murder charge reduced to Manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility). He had an illegal shotgun - five shot pump - as well as having lost his licence a few years earlier for trying to shot someone who was scrumping apples.

He fired several shots at them at close range and the third, lethal discharged was fired as the thieves were fleeing the property. The prosecution case, which was proven in court, before a jury, was that Tony Martin had armed himself with an illegal firearm and waited to ambush them - giving no warning).

Martin has also since endorsed the British National Party, had attended meetings of the National Front, and is related to one of its founders.

He was never quite the 'put upon, desperate guy who defended himself'. He claimed he found the shotgun, which happened to be a five shot pump action shotgun - illegal under UK law without a Firearms certificate and had lost his shotgun licence, anyhow for shooting at scrumpers.

He was in no way defending himself, according to the Jury, he was waiting to ambush and kill those intruders.
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  #72  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:20 PM
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If somebody feels their, or one of their family's life is in danger by another that has broken in to their home, they should have every right to protect themselves imo.

I'm sure I read something before about the legal difference with being armed with an actual weapon, and something that was simply at hand used as a weapon (an ornament, rolling pin etc...) can make or break a case in these circumstances. A screwdriver may well fit the bill, especially if the homeowner didn't have it in the first place.
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  #73  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:26 PM
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Unlike Tony Martin, To view the link you have to Register or Login was deemed to be acting in self defence. Got jailed for a firearm defence though.
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  #74  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:30 PM
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If this is the same crew that have been robbing the big houses in the Chislehurst area recently, then it's going to be linked to Irish travellers. That's who has fallen under the precise microscope of the bar room briefs in the boozers of SE9 anyway.
Miles?
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  #75  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:32 PM
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And this is exactly why Britain has gone down the toilet. If your house is broken into the police normally won't come to investigate. If you defend your property (or yourself) you end up being prosecuted. It's insane.
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  #76  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by The EEEAAAGGGLLLEEE!!! View Post
And this is exactly why Britain has gone down the toilet. If your house is broken into the police normally won't come to investigate. If you defend your property (or yourself) you end up being prosecuted. It's insane.
We don’t know yet that he will be prosecuted.
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  #77  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:37 PM
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I hope they don't charge him - can't see any jury convicting him here - more public money down the drain if they do. I wonder if he is from a certain background which is why they have arrested him on suspicion of murder. Eddie Richardson is around that age
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  #78  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:38 PM
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The law on self-defence is proportionate response and reasonable force, I think.

Let’s see.
Tony Martin is innocent.
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  #79  
Old 04-04-2018, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The EEEAAAGGGLLLEEE!!! View Post
And this is exactly why Britain has gone down the toilet. If your house is broken into the police normally won't come to investigate. If you defend your property (or yourself) you end up being prosecuted. It's insane.
Where as going to confront them, when you believe them to be a threat to your life, would be the act of sanity. Most people shout a warning, and defend their ground - rather than go off to engage one or more unknown people. who may be armed, in the dark by themselves. You stuff isn't worth dying for either.

I know everyone likes to think they're hard and tough, but really, going off, on your own, into the dark, to take on one or more unknown, probably younger male criminals.... F**k that.

Also, if you tell the police they're in your house, they will be there as fast as possible.
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Old 04-04-2018, 02:41 PM
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Rightly so, self defence is a plea entered in court. Its not something for the police to determine. The way it works is that you are formally charged and enter a plea, that yes you did kill / wound / harm x, but you did so in self defence or the defence of others. The defence and prosecution then put forward their cases as to whether it was within the remit of self defence.

Its a very dodgy area to get into to allow the Police or CPS to determine whether or not an action was self defence - as its potentially biased due to prejudice and political pressure - That a jury trial isn't. Its been known for the CPS not to pursue cases where clear self defence is apparent.

Just because it looks like a burglary, doesn't mean its self defence.

Its like a diminished responsibility plea, in that you are effectively 'stating that you did the act, but that you were justified in your actions.

Whatever, if I'm on the jury he's free, with a George Cross and load of crim compo.
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