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View Poll Results: Messi Hype or True Great
Hyped Player 33 21.43%
True great, one of the best ever 107 69.48%
I don't care about Argies 14 9.09%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old 14-07-2014, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by kolinkins View Post
You're missing the point.

We are talking about the very best, in history. As Adler says above, the very best drag their teams kicking and screaming over the line.

Messi is outstanding, a stunning player and great to watch

But Maradona did what Messi didn't - drag a mediocre side to winning a World Cup. He took a much worse side than Barcelona to win the Italian league.

Until Messi does either of those, it is hard to say he is the very best ever, despite what goals:games ratio tells you.
Rubbish.. Absolute tripe. Barcelona are a team full of the best players you will ever see and he is still the stand out man in that team . Argentina too have some top players..aguerp..zabeletta ..higuane.. And still messi is a cut above.. Maradona cheated in 86. Thats why they won it .. Are you saying messi needs to do the same to get your approval ?
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  #42  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:02 AM
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I wonder how Maradona would have fared in the modern age against the athleticism and tactical discipline of brilliant teams like Germany. He would be a standout player, for sure, and would still be possibly the greatest ever, but would he be able to win things on his lonesome? Would any player?
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  #43  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
Rubbish.. Absolute tripe. Barcelona are a team full of the best players you will ever see and he is still the stand out man in that team . Argentina too have some top players..aguerp..zabeletta ..higuane.. And still messi is a cut above.. Maradona cheated in 86. Thats why they won it .. Are you saying messi needs to do the same to get your approval ?
No mate if Messi had of done this during the final like Diego then you may have a point...

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  #44  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:04 AM
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One of the greatest, but not the greatest. Maradona, Pele, Di Stefano, Ronaldo (imo) are ahead of him
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  #45  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by palacea View Post
No mate if Messi had of done this during the final like Diego then you may have a point...

Peter Reid or Philip Lahm.
Terry Butcher or Jerome Boateng.

Hmmm.
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  #46  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:06 AM
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Ronaldo with that Argentinian team behind him would have torn this world cup apart
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  #47  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palacea View Post
I don't think then you can have a debate, as to cast off previous football history just because you wasn't there. Isn't really going to give you a well informed answer. I wasn't around in 1966 or 1970, but I know England had a very good team and some outstanding players, and poor Greaves one of the greatest England strikers ever, but just went bang out of form during the World Cup `66.
I'm not casting it off am I?! I'm saying I can't comment on Maradona as it wouldn't be fair as I hadn't seen him.

If I were going to comment on history, I'd probably say Maradona is the only player who has ever single handedly won a tournament - as people like to say. Pele was part of a very good 1958 team & what is reported as being the best team of all time in 1970. As I previously said, Zidane & Ronaldo also played in very good teams when they won world cups. I don't believe the Argentina team was as good as those teams - star players like Di Maria & Aguero weren't fully fit for example.

So basically, with that argument, Maradona is the only true great ever? Messi did single handedly win matches for Argentina in the earlier stages of the tournament, but that seems to be forgotten. What this tournament has taught us more than ever, is that teams are better than individuals. Germany won this world cup because they had a better team than Argentina. If Messi were German, then I'm sure we'd be hailing him as the best ever right now as he'd have a World Cup winners medal to his name.
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  #48  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by palacea View Post
No mate if Messi had of done this during the final like Diego then you may have a point...

Thats my point entirely.. He doesnt cheat..play act. Or try and con the ref.. He doesnt need to . Yet maradona did all of the above and was hailed as a great. No comparison ..Messi is by far a better player and he will be better regarded for the way he plays the game when history examines him .
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  #49  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:08 AM
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Further to Zonin's earlier piece.

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  #50  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
Thats my point entirely.. He doesnt cheat..play act. Or try and con the ref.. He doesnt need to . Yet maradona did all of the above and was hailed as a great. No comparison ..Messi is by far a better player and he will be better regarded for the way he plays the game when history examines him .
cheat or not. Maradona was the better player. I think you stand alone there.
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  #51  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by gilesy14 View Post
I'm not missing the point - this thread asks whether Messi is hyped (which I'm assuming means over hyped) or whether he's one of the greatest ever.

I'm saying, winning a World Cup isn't what a player should be solely judged upon. As I said in a previous post, I didn't see Maradona in his prime - hence why I'm not making comparisons with him - you're the one making that comparison, which isn't really what's being discussed here.

I'm saying I can only judge on what I've seen in my lifetime. From that, all I can say is Messi is the best I've ever seen. For me, that makes him one of the greats. I can't really say much more than that can I?
Nobody is saying winning the World Cup is what you should be solely judged on

But when two players have been equally outstanding at domestic level, and they play for the same national side and one has taken his to win the World Cup and the other has not, it is a pretty sensible indicator as a differential
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  #52  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by AndyStreet View Post
Peter Reid or Philip Lahm.
Terry Butcher or Jerome Boateng.

Hmmm.
That's not England? That's a video of the final of 1986, just how much Maradona was involved in the game and everything went through him. Not sure what Butcher or Reid have to do with it?
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  #53  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by kolinkins View Post
Nobody is saying winning the World Cup is what you should be solely judged on

But when two players have been equally outstanding at domestic level, and they play for the same national side and one has taken his to win the World Cup and the other has not, it is a pretty sensible indicator as a differential
Who has been equal to Messi over the last 5 years, other than Cristiano Ronaldo? Who over the last 20 years has a record equal to Messi? Nobody.

If you're talking about Maradona, then fine - I'm not questioning that. But this thread is about Messi - I've said I can't comment on Maradona as I never saw his in his prime as I was around 9 months old in 1986.

These stats do suggest however that there isn't as much between Messi & Maradona as you make out.

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  #54  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by palacea View Post
That's not England? That's a video of the final of 1986, just how much Maradona was involved in the game and everything went through him. Not sure what Butcher or Reid have to do with it?
Oops - didn't watch and assumed it was the England goal.
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  #55  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
Rubbish.. Absolute tripe. Barcelona are a team full of the best players you will ever see and he is still the stand out man in that team . Argentina too have some top players..aguerp..zabeletta ..higuane.. And still messi is a cut above.. Maradona cheated in 86. Thats why they won it .. Are you saying messi needs to do the same to get your approval ?

Messi wasn't even their best player of this wc , mascerano and di Maria were better, he done nothing in the 2010 wc nor in 06 , he's done nothing in the copa America either
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  #56  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:25 AM
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Messi wasn't even their best player of this wc , mascerano and di Maria were better, he done nothing in the 2010 wc nor in 06 , he's done nothing in the copa America either
Di Maria was not better. That's utter bollox. His performance vs Switzerland was one of the worst individual performances I've ever witnessed.
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Old 14-07-2014, 10:27 AM
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Messi wasn't even their best player of this wc , mascerano and di Maria were better, he done nothing in the 2010 wc nor in 06 , he's done nothing in the copa America either
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  #58  
Old 14-07-2014, 10:28 AM
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Messi wasn't even their best player of this wc , mascerano and di Maria were better
Did you watch Argentina vs Switzerland?
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Old 14-07-2014, 10:30 AM
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You're missing the point.

We are talking about the very best, in history. As Adler says above, the very best drag their teams kicking and screaming over the line.

Messi is outstanding, a stunning player and great to watch

But Maradona did what Messi didn't - drag a mediocre side to winning a World Cup. He took a much worse side than Barcelona to win the Italian league.

Until Messi does either of those, it is hard to say he is the very best ever, despite what goals:games ratio tells you.
Got to agree with this - Adlerhorstís posts are spot on for me.

Itís interesting to see the ages of some posting on here, though. No disrespect to them at all, but itís impossible to compare players from different eras as we all know, but if youíre under 30 then Messi is undoubtedly one of the best players youíve seen so far. Cruyff , for me, was fantastic, but was also supported by a very good team.

Prior to the World Cup Five Liveís Darren Fletcher, John Motson, Jimmy Armfield, French Football journalist, Julian Laurens and Tim Vickery all chose their all-time World Cup 11. They left out Cruyff and Ronaldo. Where they had much discussion on the centre backs and midfield, not a single one of them, not one, omitted Pele from the team. He was instantly into the side without any debate.
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Old 14-07-2014, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by gilesy14 View Post
Who has been equal to Messi over the last 5 years, other than Cristiano Ronaldo? Who over the last 20 years has a record equal to Messi? Nobody.

If you're talking about Maradona, then fine - I'm not questioning that. But this thread is about Messi - I've said I can't comment on Maradona as I never saw his in his prime as I was around 9 months old in 1986.

These stats do suggest however that there isn't as much between Messi & Maradona as you make out.

DIEGO MARADONA - 1982, 1986, 1990, 1994

WC games - 21
WC goals - 8 (8 assists)
Touches - 1468 (183.5 touches/goal)
Min. played - 2007 (250.9 min/goal)
Shots on goal - 26 (44.1% on target)
Shot avg. dist. - 21.7 yards (0 goals outside box)
Total shots - 59 (30.8% on goal)


LIONEL MESSI - 2006, 2010, 2014

WC games - 14
WC goals - 5 (3 Assists)
Touches - 958 (191.6 touches/goal)
Min. played - 1170 (234.0 min/goal)
Shots on goal - 22 (44% on target)
Shot avg. dist. - 22.2 yards (3 goals outside box)
Total shots - 50 (22.7% on goal

Argentina World Cup performances - Maradona '86 vs. Messi '14
Goals: Maradona (5) - Messi (5)
Assists: Maradona (4) - Messi (1)
Team goals: Maradona (14) - Messi (8)
Percentage of team goals: Maradona (71.4%) - Messi (63%)
World Cup titles: Maradona (1) - Messi (0)

Stats don't really tell the whole story, and can be suited to how you find the ones that suit your own debate. But what those stats above, don't show is Maradona, was hacked to pieces during the 1982 world cup and had zero protection, had slightly better protection during 1986, and obviously was a pale of himself during 1994.
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