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  #141  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IpswichEagle

If there is reason to beleive ACTUAL wrong doing then follow the legal channels.

Like the US and other Governments are now so obviously doing, you mean? If nothing else, it's shown up the Orwellian society we now live in for what it is with the shameless, underhand pursuit and persecution of Assange and Wikileaks.

Or dare you suggest that Amazon, Paypal, Visa, EasyDNS, Mastercard etc are all acting off their own backs?
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  #142  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
The government is not an abstract concept or a separate body ; in a democracy it is the people.
Agreed.

Quote:
If something affects a relationship between our government and another state then ultimately the people are the ones who will suffer.

(I hate being on the side of the devils).
I understand your point.

I am not qualified to say if any really damaging information has been released. The coverage in North America is mostly of the government establishment taking umbrage over someone usurping their ability to control the flow of information to the public. I can't help but think that anything that gets the establishment (in particular the unelected establishment) in such a lather can't be all bad.

Anyone leaking information has a moral dilemma in balancing the good the leak will do against the bad that might also be a consequence. Some of the earlier information released by Wikileaks was clearly in the public interest and the demonization of Assange is wholly inappropriate if his judgment is off this time.
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  #143  
Old 07-12-2010, 07:58 PM
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wikileaks didn't leak anything

just a thought
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  #144  
Old 07-12-2010, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonboy
I am not qualified to say if any really damaging information has been released. The coverage in North America is mostly of the government establishment taking umbrage over someone usurping their ability to control the flow of information to the public. I can't help but think that anything that gets the establishment (in particular the unelected establishment) in such a lather can't be all bad.

Anyone leaking information has a moral dilemma in balancing the good the leak will do against the bad that might also be a consequence. Some of the earlier information released by Wikileaks was clearly in the public interest and the demonization of Assange is wholly inappropriate if his judgment is off this time.
These are nice points, well made.
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  #145  
Old 07-12-2010, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruskin Old Boy
One wonders what the USA offered the Swedes to bring trumped up charges against him. The USA will pursue this guy in the same way that they're pursuing the English guy who hacked into their files and the way in which they kidnapped anyone they thought was sympathetic to Islamic funadmentalism, tortured them and kept them locked up without trial.

Governments leak all the time as a matter of course. And that includes the USA.
The cover up of civilian deaths in Iraq is something that needed revealing for a whole host of reason and is in the public interest.

However, I think there is a case for being critical of some of the material wikileaks has leaked.

For me the vast majority of the diplomatic material was crass and not in the public interest. If I were in government I would dismiss these particular papers as irrelevant and undermine wikileaks for 'pandering to the tabloids', I mean where is the public interest in Prince Andrew privately being called an idiot?

Why can't the governments affected not simply argue on the rightfulness of their case, these ridiculous trumped up charges against Assaunge are worthy of communist china or the incarceration of dissidents in mental hospitals by soviet russia.

It looks and feels horrible and totally undermines any moral high ground any government takes. Special rendition in public.
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  #146  
Old 08-12-2010, 04:37 AM
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Yesterday the U.S. State Department announced that it will be hosting UNESCO's 'World Press Freedom Day' next May. From the press release:

"The United States places technology and innovation at the forefront of its diplomatic and development efforts. New media has empowered citizens around the world to report on their circumstances, express opinions on world events, and exchange information in environments sometimes hostile to such exercises of individuals' right to freedom of expression. At the same time, we are concerned about the determination of some governments to censor and silence individuals, and to restrict the free flow of information. We mark events such as World Press Freedom Day in the context of our enduring commitment to support and expand press freedom and the free flow of information in this digital age.

Who says Americans don't understand irony.
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  #147  
Old 08-12-2010, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IpswichEagle
People in support of these leaks bang on about the rights of free speech and that this is just an extreme freedom of information source.

But on the other hand, what about the rights to privacy?

If the leaking of documents or conversations actively results in criminal acts, abuse of power or important cover-ups coming to light ,that would otherwise not see the light of day, then i am all for it.

But surely no sane thinking person can believe that all affairs of state should be conducted without confidentiality? Foreign affairs especially! That every contigency plan or personal comment should be posted for the world to see. Absolute rubbish. I can't see what actual good any of this does apart from titilate journalists.
What these leaks have shown is the hypocritical nature of politics. It indicates how easily manipulated nation states and corporate bodies are when the big playground bully doesn't like whats going on. The US has taken on a role of democratic and moral guardian in the world, and yet the majority of the cables published indicate a corrupt, duplicitous nature to their dealings.

I agree that certain documents shouldn't have been published - there needs to be some accountability and some understanding of the serious nature of their contents - but the manipulation involved in critical areas of foreign relations should be highlighted.

That America asked its diplomats to illegally collect information on UN representatives is revolting; that Britain stood by and allowed the US to continue using its RAF bases for extraordinary rendition is concerning; that promises have been made to protect American interests during an independent enquiry into the Iraq conflict suggests that it isn't independent at all.

Core to all of these issues is the fact that government has been two-faced about serious issues. There is a kind of Soviet approach to the release of information - 'don't allow people to know what they don't need to know' - well, many of the details highlighted in these cable leaks are details we should be aware of, whether government thinks so or not.
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  #148  
Old 08-12-2010, 07:25 AM
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Would hate to see the Banks and various Goverments bring an end to wikileaks before the information about the Banks can be released.

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  #149  
Old 08-12-2010, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalin john
these ridiculous trumped up charges against Assaunge are worthy of communist china or the incarceration of dissidents in mental hospitals by soviet russia.

It looks and feels horrible and totally undermines any moral high ground any government takes. Special rendition in public.
Agree with this

The British & American Governments are rarely in a position to claim the moral high ground. Cover-ups and stitch ups of innocent people and groups are the way they are prepared to operate to maintain their interests.
Labour's 'ethical foreign policy' lasted about as long as it took Robin Cook to speak the words and I see/expect no different from the ConDems.
The only thing that surprises me is that people are surprised to find that this is the reality.

Last edited by Palestinian; 08-12-2010 at 09:54 AM.
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  #150  
Old 08-12-2010, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDSdaEAGLE
That America asked its diplomats to illegally collect information on UN representatives is revolting; that Britain stood by and allowed the US to continue using its RAF bases for extraordinary rendition is concerning; that promises have been made to protect American interests during an independent enquiry into the Iraq conflict suggests that it isn't independent at all.
I heard Jack Straw this morning on Radio 4 arguing that the special relationship with the US wasnít in our best interests. Has it really taken 7 months of Opposition to work this out? Jack you were Foreign Secretary for 5 years did it never cross your mind in that time? Itís a bit late now.
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  #151  
Old 08-12-2010, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalin john
The cover up of civilian deaths in Iraq is something that needed revealing for a whole host of reason and is in the public interest.

However, I think there is a case for being critical of some of the material wikileaks has leaked.

For me the vast majority of the diplomatic material was crass and not in the public interest. If I were in government I would dismiss these particular papers as irrelevant and undermine wikileaks for 'pandering to the tabloids', I mean where is the public interest in Prince Andrew privately being called an idiot?

Why can't the governments affected not simply argue on the rightfulness of their case, these ridiculous trumped up charges against Assaunge are worthy of communist china or the incarceration of dissidents in mental hospitals by soviet russia.

It looks and feels horrible and totally undermines any moral high ground any government takes. Special rendition in public.
This is another good post in its entirety.

One of those difficult issues, this : not black and white at all.
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  #152  
Old 08-12-2010, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalin john
The cover up of civilian deaths in Iraq is something that needed revealing for a whole host of reason and is in the public interest.

However, I think there is a case for being critical of some of the material wikileaks has leaked.

For me the vast majority of the diplomatic material was crass and not in the public interest. If I were in government I would dismiss these particular papers as irrelevant and undermine wikileaks for 'pandering to the tabloids', I mean where is the public interest in Prince Andrew privately being called an idiot?

Why can't the governments affected not simply argue on the rightfulness of their case, these ridiculous trumped up charges against Assaunge are worthy of communist china or the incarceration of dissidents in mental hospitals by soviet russia.

It looks and feels horrible and totally undermines any moral high ground any government takes. Special rendition in public.

Good post.

A possible answer is perhaps not in what data they have released so far, but in what they are yet to release.
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  #153  
Old 08-12-2010, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalin john
For me the vast majority of the diplomatic material was crass and not in the public interest. If I were in government I would dismiss these particular papers as irrelevant and undermine wikileaks for 'pandering to the tabloids', I mean where is the public interest in Prince Andrew privately being called an idiot?
How do you know 'the vast majority' wasn't in the public interest? Well done if you have read it all, but one of the points of publishing all this stuff, including what you call the 'pandering to the tabloid' element, is so that other people can join up the dots. A bit of gossip to you might be a vital clue to someone else. Think Lt. Columbo.

Your one example of the crassness is Prince Andrew being a dick on government business. That's clearly of public interest, partly because we pay for the fukker.
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  #154  
Old 08-12-2010, 11:05 AM
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RDS makes excellent points
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  #155  
Old 08-12-2010, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kolinkins
RDS makes excellent points
Yep. Given his current location I suspect he's enjoying an internal search as we speak.
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  #156  
Old 08-12-2010, 11:31 AM
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Yes, I agree. I think what has yet to come out, particularly what they might have on the banking sector, has got a lot to do with this. And yes, some of the content the newspapers have printed recently (newspapers incidentally who seem to have come out of this unscathed so far) does seem too lowly for wikileaks.

Overall though, I think they do a good thing. Maz's post about the government being the people is a nice idea, but I don't believe that is the situation we live in.
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  #157  
Old 08-12-2010, 11:49 AM
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Can anyone get on the wikileaks site at the moment?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Regan, Chief Executive of Yorkshire Cricket Club
"The West Stand has a reputation as a party area and we've got to break that. We've put together a series of measures to ensure that those people who want to watch cricket are not disrupted by those who are simply there to have a good time"The Times, back page, Wed 5 Aug 2009
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  #158  
Old 08-12-2010, 11:55 AM
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Can anyone get on the wikileaks site at the moment?
main site seems "unavailable" but loads of mirror sites

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  #159  
Old 08-12-2010, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brighton_eagle
Yes, I agree. I think what has yet to come out, particularly what they might have on the banking sector, has got a lot to do with this. And yes, some of the content the newspapers have printed recently (newspapers incidentally who seem to have come out of this unscathed so far) does seem too lowly for wikileaks.

Overall though, I think they do a good thing. Maz's post about the government being the people is a nice idea, but I don't believe that is the situation we live in.
You may be right - this is a confused and confusing issue for me.
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Old 08-12-2010, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brighton_eagle
Maz's post about the government being the people is a nice idea, but I don't believe that is the situation we live in.
You are right - it may be good political theory, but it isn't the political reality
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