Home | Forums | Gallery | Twitter
 
CPFC BBS  

Go Back   CPFC BBS Off Topic General Chit Chat

Notices

General Chit Chat Off topic conversations. Please do not post CPFC or sport related threads here

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 29-07-2016, 12:31 PM
mik59's Avatar
mik59 mik59 is offline
Wagon Painter
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Another 'C' town
Age: 58
Posts: 31,297
Rep Power: 21474852
mik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is here
Article 50 [not just another Brexit thread]

Oh no! I hear you cry, and understandably so. But this thread is meant to be stand alone. It is not a re-run of the referendum thread. It is not about the impact. There has been one thread for that and the other thread is running.

Also, this is not about future EU trade deals, an issue which has infiltrated the Brexit impact thread.

This is about Article 50, which does not cover trade deals. Trade talks may, at best, be run in parallel but trade will not be part of the UK's EU withdrawal agreement under Article 50. The overlap may well be the broad area of our future EU relationship, once we we have left, so some of that legitimately belongs here too.

While we know the UK Government will not invoke Article 50 until 2017 at earliest, the Commission have appointed their chief Brexit negotiator (Michel Barnier) and our PM is touring the EU looking at various big, relevant issues.

So what could be covered in Article 50? A selective list is:

- access for UK citizens to the European Health Insurance Card and acquired / vested rights of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK

- transfer of regulatory responsibilities

- arrangements for contracts drawn up in accordance with EU law

- winding down EU funds e.g. for UK regions and farmers

- access to EU agencies that play a role in UK domestic law, and arrangements for the closure/relocation of EU agencies headquartered in the UK (for Banking and Medicines)

- cross-border security arrangements including access to EU databases and involvement in EuroPol

- co-operation on foreign policy, including sanctions

- departure (or not?) from the Single European Sky arrangement as well as continued access to the EU’s single aviation markets and involvement in other integrated transport including maritime

- rights of UK fishermen to fish in traditional non-UK waters, including those in the North Sea, & rights of EU fishermen to UK waters

- involvement in the EU integrated energy market

- status of the UK’s environmental commitments made as party to various UN environmental conventions and currently implemented through EU legislation.

It would be interesting to hear from BBSers that have direct knowledge in any of these areas.

In terms of resolution, I think the 1st in my list should be ticked off quickly by agreeing to maintain existing rights, despite the conflicting noises from government on this.
__________________
Where am I goin'? I don't know. When will I be there? I ain't certain. What will I get? I ain't equipped to say.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 29-07-2016, 12:34 PM
eaglejez eaglejez is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Deepest Surrey,England
Posts: 30,243
Rep Power: 21474854
eaglejez Sam the man is hereeaglejez Sam the man is hereeaglejez Sam the man is hereeaglejez Sam the man is hereeaglejez Sam the man is hereeaglejez Sam the man is hereeaglejez Sam the man is hereeaglejez Sam the man is hereeaglejez Sam the man is hereeaglejez Sam the man is hereeaglejez Sam the man is here
oh no !
__________________
Five dollars...maybe I'll go to the movies...by myself
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 29-07-2016, 12:38 PM
1905's Avatar
1905 1905 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 4,647
Rep Power: 21474846
1905 Sam the man is here1905 Sam the man is here1905 Sam the man is here1905 Sam the man is here1905 Sam the man is here1905 Sam the man is here1905 Sam the man is here1905 Sam the man is here1905 Sam the man is here1905 Sam the man is here1905 Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
In terms of resolution, I think the 1st in my list should be ticked off quickly by agreeing to maintain existing rights, despite the conflicting noises from government on this.
Agree on this one, sure most of us would be happy that we retain existing rights.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 29-07-2016, 12:40 PM
SKATE's Avatar
SKATE SKATE is offline
Orange Fleecer
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The chairless chair
Age: 63
Posts: 8,841
Rep Power: 19661704
SKATE came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSKATE came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSKATE came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSKATE came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSKATE came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSKATE came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSKATE came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSKATE came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSKATE came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSKATE came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSKATE came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
Oh no! I hear you cry, and understandably so. But this thread is meant to be stand alone. It is not a re-run of the referendum thread. It is not about the impact. There has been one thread for that and the other thread is running.

Also, this is not about future EU trade deals, an issue which has infiltrated the Brexit impact thread.

This is about Article 50, which does not cover trade deals. Trade talks may, at best, be run in parallel but trade will not be part of the UK's EU withdrawal agreement under Article 50. The overlap may well be the broad area of our future EU relationship, once we we have left, so some of that legitimately belongs here too.

While we know the UK Government will not invoke Article 50 until 2017 at earliest, the Commission have appointed their chief Brexit negotiator (Michel Barnier) and our PM is touring the EU looking at various big, relevant issues.

So what could be covered in Article 50? A selective list is:

- access for UK citizens to the European Health Insurance Card and acquired / vested rights of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in the UK

- transfer of regulatory responsibilities

- arrangements for contracts drawn up in accordance with EU law

- winding down EU funds e.g. for UK regions and farmers

- access to EU agencies that play a role in UK domestic law, and arrangements for the closure/relocation of EU agencies headquartered in the UK (for Banking and Medicines)

- cross-border security arrangements including access to EU databases and involvement in EuroPol

- co-operation on foreign policy, including sanctions

- departure (or not?) from the Single European Sky arrangement as well as continued access to the EUs single aviation markets and involvement in other integrated transport including maritime

- rights of UK fishermen to fish in traditional non-UK waters, including those in the North Sea, & rights of EU fishermen to UK waters

- involvement in the EU integrated energy market

- status of the UKs environmental commitments made as party to various UN environmental conventions and currently implemented through EU legislation.

It would be interesting to hear from BBSers that have direct knowledge in any of these areas.

In terms of resolution, I think the 1st in my list should be ticked off quickly by agreeing to maintain existing rights, despite the conflicting noises from government on this.
Go and get on with your decorating!!
__________________
Red n Blue ArmyRed n Blue Army

Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream, Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily - life is but a dream!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 29-07-2016, 12:42 PM
mik59's Avatar
mik59 mik59 is offline
Wagon Painter
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Another 'C' town
Age: 58
Posts: 31,297
Rep Power: 21474852
mik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by SKATE View Post
Go and get on with your decorating!!
Lunch break innit. (And brush cleaning.)

Meh!
__________________
Where am I goin'? I don't know. When will I be there? I ain't certain. What will I get? I ain't equipped to say.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 29-07-2016, 12:45 PM
GreatGonzo's Avatar
GreatGonzo GreatGonzo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 55,705
Rep Power: 21474855
GreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1905 View Post
Agree on this one, sure most of us would be happy that we retain existing rights.
It will be interesting see where the balance of power lies in many of these areas.

We would like the right of Brits abroad to stay abroad, and in return EU citizens remain, however we know that there are more EU citizens in the UK and Brits abroad. It would be interesting to see the effects of the EHIC as my understanding is (mostly due to ineptness in the UK) that we claim very little from abroad whilst they claim more from us.

Is there a balance of power shift in other areas on the list?

This is why i suspect the trade exit will run in parallel as the EU hold the balance of power in trade, but if we hold the balance of power in terms of Article 50 do they start to cancel each other out?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 29-07-2016, 01:00 PM
mik59's Avatar
mik59 mik59 is offline
Wagon Painter
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Another 'C' town
Age: 58
Posts: 31,297
Rep Power: 21474852
mik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
It will be interesting see where the balance of power lies in many of these areas.

We would like the right of Brits abroad to stay abroad, and in return EU citizens remain, however we know that there are more EU citizens in the UK and Brits abroad. It would be interesting to see the effects of the EHIC as my understanding is (mostly due to ineptness in the UK) that we claim very little from abroad whilst they claim more from us.

Is there a balance of power shift in other areas on the list?

This is why i suspect the trade exit will run in parallel as the EU hold the balance of power in trade, but if we hold the balance of power in terms of Article 50 do they start to cancel each other out?
I'm not sure if the issue of citizens' rights is much to do with power. It seems to me that it is fairly straightforward.

But, more so, I don't see that we hold many cards on any of the A50 stuff e.g. we need access to energy from other EU countries as we face occasional blackouts without it. The same probably for transport stuff as it's impossible to see how we can go unilateral in practice. Then consider the EU Banking Authority in London albeit the issue of the single market and financial services may be more important. I can't see us winning much on fishing either as we can't impose an international boundary (as France etc too close on one side and Ireland on the other) plus fish don't understand borders.

The only area I can see where they need us is our, so far, UN standing so useful for sanctions etc and our defence / intelligence expertise.

But after all this you could argue that A50 has no power play on either side. It is simply technical stuff that needs to be done. We could leave without settling any or all of it but that would be chaotic, so the pressure is all on us.
__________________
Where am I goin'? I don't know. When will I be there? I ain't certain. What will I get? I ain't equipped to say.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 29-07-2016, 01:45 PM
TAK's Avatar
TAK TAK is offline
What, no boat?
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Life on the ocean waves (Costa Rica)
Age: 50
Posts: 12,862
Rep Power: 21474855
TAK Sam the man is hereTAK Sam the man is hereTAK Sam the man is hereTAK Sam the man is hereTAK Sam the man is hereTAK Sam the man is hereTAK Sam the man is hereTAK Sam the man is hereTAK Sam the man is hereTAK Sam the man is hereTAK Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by SKATE View Post
Go and get on with your decorating!!
He's still decorating?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 29-07-2016, 01:49 PM
Chief Brody's Avatar
Chief Brody Chief Brody is offline
Four-eyed shark hunter
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In a boat doin' a spot of fishin'....
Posts: 11,157
Rep Power: 21451757
Chief Brody came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietChief Brody came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietChief Brody came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietChief Brody came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietChief Brody came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietChief Brody came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietChief Brody came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietChief Brody came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietChief Brody came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietChief Brody came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietChief Brody came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Does the Council not make the decision on the exit deal? If so, are they still to appoint their negotiator or are they deferring to the Commission to do the heavy lifting with Barnier reporting to them?
__________________
You're gonna need a bigger ground!

Quote:
Originally Posted by maestro View Post
He isnt top class mate

He is a limited player who scores goals with his head
Re Benteke - 14 May 2017
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 29-07-2016, 01:59 PM
Mat ov CPFC Mat ov CPFC is offline
An Alpha Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 46,127
Rep Power: 21422651
Mat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
In terms of the populace issue, then I feel that any EU citizens who have UK NI numbers that have been active i.e contributed tax and/or NI contributions over the last 18 months or can prove positive residency in the same period could be granted permanent remain to stay in the UK from a specific date to be agreed upon.

And I would expect similar in terms of UK citizens living in the EU.

Nobody wants to see population exchanges and I suspect that many EU nations do not relish the strains of seeing lots of young people move back to them. Lets keep who we have and they keep who they have.

As to future quota's, well that is up in the air but outside of Ireland, with whom we have long standing agreements, then quotas would need to be discussed and agreed upon. NI numbers would be the key to managing this. All proposals welcome.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 29-07-2016, 01:59 PM
Adlerhorst's Avatar
Adlerhorst Adlerhorst is offline
Happy Felix Day!
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Hertfordshire
Age: 40
Posts: 57,435
Rep Power: 21474850
Adlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is hereAdlerhorst Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAK View Post
He's still decorating?
Mik will always still be decorating
__________________
The Defector looks like no other breaking pitch in the game. It is well-supinated, leaving the right hand of Fernandez at a fastball trajectory before the laws of physics cease to apply and the laws of awesome take over.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 29-07-2016, 02:09 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is online now
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 53
Posts: 41,822
Rep Power: 21474853
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
I'm sorry, but that won't be acceptable to me. I want an EU passport and to be able to retain my British nationality. I don't see why my rights should be affected by a referendum in which I was not allowed to vote. I also want my pension and social security rights in the UK as in Spain.
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 29-07-2016, 02:12 PM
Mat ov CPFC Mat ov CPFC is offline
An Alpha Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 46,127
Rep Power: 21422651
Mat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMat ov CPFC came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
I'm sorry, but that won't be acceptable to me. I want an EU passport and to be able to retain my British nationality. I don't see why my rights should be affected by a referendum in which I was not allowed to vote. I also want my pension and social security rights in the UK as in Spain.
You pay NI in the UK and you get a UK pension. If you want an EU passport then get a Spanish one.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 29-07-2016, 02:14 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is online now
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 53
Posts: 41,822
Rep Power: 21474853
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
I have paid copious amounts in both countries. However I can't get a Spanish passport without renouncing my British nationality. And why the blazes should I have to do that?
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 29-07-2016, 02:48 PM
Cake and Eat It Cake and Eat It is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Somewhere, someplace
Age: 47
Posts: 2,398
Rep Power: 5097659
Cake and Eat It came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCake and Eat It came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCake and Eat It came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCake and Eat It came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCake and Eat It came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCake and Eat It came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCake and Eat It came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCake and Eat It came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCake and Eat It came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCake and Eat It came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietCake and Eat It came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Because thems the rules
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 29-07-2016, 02:52 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is online now
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 53
Posts: 41,822
Rep Power: 21474853
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
Not if I sue your sorry collective white British arse.
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 29-07-2016, 02:53 PM
delboy01's Avatar
delboy01 delboy01 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Basildon
Posts: 9,113
Rep Power: 21474852
delboy01 Sam the man is heredelboy01 Sam the man is heredelboy01 Sam the man is heredelboy01 Sam the man is heredelboy01 Sam the man is heredelboy01 Sam the man is heredelboy01 Sam the man is heredelboy01 Sam the man is heredelboy01 Sam the man is heredelboy01 Sam the man is heredelboy01 Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
I have paid copious amounts in both countries. However I can't get a Spanish passport without renouncing my British nationality. And why the blazes should I have to do that?
That's a Spainish rule.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 29-07-2016, 03:02 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is online now
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 53
Posts: 41,822
Rep Power: 21474853
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
Yes it is.
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 29-07-2016, 03:05 PM
in-exile's Avatar
in-exile in-exile is online now
#Hadron Collider
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 16,454
Rep Power: 21474844
in-exile Sam the man is herein-exile Sam the man is herein-exile Sam the man is herein-exile Sam the man is herein-exile Sam the man is herein-exile Sam the man is herein-exile Sam the man is herein-exile Sam the man is herein-exile Sam the man is herein-exile Sam the man is herein-exile Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1905 View Post
Agree on this one, sure most of us would be happy that we retain existing rights.
**** off.... the fish is ours!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 29-07-2016, 03:14 PM
GreatGonzo's Avatar
GreatGonzo GreatGonzo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 55,705
Rep Power: 21474855
GreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
I can't see us winning much on fishing either as we can't impose an international boundary (as France etc too close on one side and Ireland on the other) plus fish don't understand borders.
Complete the following line:

Rule Britannia, Britannia _______________

We fish where we want, we fish where we want, We are the British, we fish where we want.

On a serious point, given Northern Ireland is part of Britain does that not negate some of the Ireland issue when it comes to territorial waters.

This map suggests what our fishing waters would be:
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.