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  #181  
Old 10-07-2016, 01:52 PM
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Don't do yourself down. You easily make the same bracket of backward bigots alongside other such noted folk like the Saudis. (Quite pleased with that touch of alliteration)
Nah, Mat's worse. Many other people could cite their national culture as being the reason they are intolerant of homosexuality. You might for example disagree with the views of a Saudi but you might understand why he held them at least.

Mat has no such excuse for his rampant homophobia.
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  #182  
Old 10-07-2016, 01:57 PM
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Repression?
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  #183  
Old 10-07-2016, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Mat ov CPFC View Post
In terms of her sexuality, then I guess it boils down to the fact that she would be expected to operate at the highest levels of politics and whilst you traditionally get a lot of Gay men involved in politics, it is never in the highest positions of leadership, at least in terms of the major nations. Mandleson is the both the best and worst example of this. To give him credit, in terms of being a skilled manipulator behind the scenes, then he is up their with the best of them but you could never imagine him sitting in on a G7 summit when it came down to the real nitty gritty.

Also the job of PM means dealing with other heads of nations whose own attitudes towards homosexuality make mine look positively tolerant and I suspect that she would simply not be taken seriously, at best. Bloody hell, in some countries she would be a classified as a criminal.
Thanks for the answer, but I am at a loss as to what your first paragraph means. That we shouldn't have a gay leader because we've never had one yet? Or that homosexuals can't negotiate and take decisions?

As for the second point, well those foreign countries can **** off. Honestly, do you really think we should choose leaders on the basis of which bigoted regimes will hate them the least?
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  #184  
Old 10-07-2016, 02:17 PM
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Mat has no such excuse for his rampant homophobia.
Certain biblical extracts interpreted and taught by his own religous clergy?
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  #185  
Old 10-07-2016, 04:43 PM
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Mat's an apologist for the Catholic Church.

His view is, wouldn't attack gays himself but could understand why people would.
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  #186  
Old 10-07-2016, 05:32 PM
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Ted Heath
Winston Chuchill.
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  #187  
Old 10-07-2016, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Mat ov CPFC View Post
I rarely troll. And not on here. Or do you think this woman is a credible candidate? Seriously?
You know, in one sense I don't think it matters whether she is a "credible candidate" or not. All that really matters is that she is not Jeremy Corbyn. Of course, it would be great if Eagle was someone who could win an election, and I agree with you that she probably can't (albeit for very different reasons to you and nothing to do with her sexuality). Hopefully better candidates emerge once it's clear there will be a contest.

But when its all said and done, what matters is getting rid of Corbyn. If Eagle gets elected as leader and two years down the line she's not performing, someone else can take over in less fraught circumstances and with two years (probably) still to go before the next election. And even if Eagle leads labour to an election defeat, there is likely to be enough of Labour left for a new leader to build from, and a properly functioning opposition in the meantime.

But if Corbyn stays, the Labour party is probably finished. The best it can hope for is a 1983 style result at the next election, with some prospect of power 10 years after that after a long rebuilding process. That's the best realistic outcome. At worst, you're looking at a road to extinction that plays out over the next 2-3 general elections.

So Eagle is a great candidate right now, simply by virtue of being halfway sensible and not Jeremy Corbyn. Anything beyond that is a bonus, and in the absence of other candidates, I will be registering as a Labour supporter for the express purpose of supporting her leadership bid.
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  #188  
Old 10-07-2016, 05:53 PM
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If it's Leadsom and Corbyn as the leaders that would leave a massive gap in the centre. I cannot see a stable situation with the 2 main parties having leaders at the end of their own spectrums. This referendum vote is setting off a chain of events that will change the face of politics in the country.
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  #189  
Old 10-07-2016, 06:01 PM
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It would be good for Angela Eagle to set out some policies and vision so let's give her a chance. It would be a beneficial factor for Labour to have an MP with northern roots and representing a northern constituency to avoid a potential meltdown in 2020.
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  #190  
Old 10-07-2016, 06:03 PM
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A.Eagle would have no better chance then J.Corbyn of being elected so does that mean a vote of no confidence if she won a leadership fight where JC was unable to stand.
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  #191  
Old 10-07-2016, 06:04 PM
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Corbyn has really disappointed me. A good and principaled man, he has no idea how to lead and bring people with him.
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  #192  
Old 10-07-2016, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by the drexciyan View Post
If it's Leadsom and Corbyn as the leaders that would leave a massive gap in the centre. I cannot see a stable situation with the 2 main parties having leaders at the end of their own spectrums. This referendum vote is setting off a chain of events that will change the face of politics in the country.
There are rumours of upto 20 Tory MPs defecting somewhere, LibDems I guess, if Leadsom wins, blowing her majority and forcing an early election.
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  #193  
Old 10-07-2016, 06:12 PM
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Corbyn has really disappointed me. A good and principaled man, he has no idea how to lead and bring people with him.
Whatever his obvious shortcomings (and can anyone really be surprised that his "leadership" has been such a disaster) I until recently shared your view that Corbyn was a "good and principled man". To be honest, I no longer believe that. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation , Corbyn's "leadership" threatens to tear the Labour party apart and actually puts it's very existence as a potential party of Government at risk.

Given that reality, any "good and principled man" would stand aside at this stage for the greater good, even if they felt aggrieved at doing so. this is especially true given the current circumstances.

The fact that Corbyn is grimly hanging on tells me beyond any doubt that he is among the most vain and arrogant of all politicians. It's simply that his lack of competence had until now prevented him from reaching a position where this became apparent.
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  #194  
Old 10-07-2016, 06:19 PM
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Whatever his obvious shortcomings (and can anyone really be surprised that his "leadership" has been such a disaster) I until recently shared your view that Corbyn was a "good and principled man". To be honest, I no longer believe that. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation , Corbyn's "leadership" threatens to tear the Labour party apart and actually puts it's very existence as a potential party of Government at risk.

Given that reality, any "good and principled man" would stand aside at this stage for the greater good, even if they felt aggrieved at doing so. this is especially true given the current circumstances.

The fact that Corbyn is grimly hanging on tells me beyond any doubt that he is among the most vain and arrogant of all politicians. It's simply that his lack of competence had until now prevented him from reaching a position where this became apparent.
I agree with your last paragraph.

The issue, as I see it, for Corbyn was that he never sought to build bridges across the party. He doesn't appear to understand that people in party's have different opinions and that those whose views differ need to be accommodated, rather than purged. An example of this is Hilary Benn. He could have accommodated and marginalised Benn in a far better manner, give him a less prominent but more demanding role that shadow Foreign Secretary, and then whilst he is still a critic of Corbyn, he is not the catalyst for the 'no confidence' movement within the PLP.

Maybe, being on the fringes of the Labour Party for so many years, and being a lone figure on so many campaigns, has driven him to, apparently, not trusting or accommodating those whose views differ from his.
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  #195  
Old 10-07-2016, 06:20 PM
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The fact that Corbyn is grimly hanging on tells me beyond any doubt that he is among the most vain and arrogant of all politicians. It's simply that his lack of competence had until now prevented him from reaching a position where this became apparent.
Or are there more arrogant politicians ignoring the overwhelming view of the membership in the belief that they know what's best. It's a bit Remainian vs Brexiter again. The Remainians knew best and anyone who didn't see that was a fool. We know how that ended
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  #196  
Old 10-07-2016, 06:31 PM
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Or are there more arrogant politicians ignoring the overwhelming view of the membership in the belief that they know what's best. It's a bit Remainian vs Brexiter again. The Remainians knew best and anyone who didn't see that was a fool. We know how that ended
That might be true if Corbyn's performance hadn't been so utterly dismal in every conceivable way pretty much from the word go. He simply isn't up to the job and the PLP are quite right in this instance to act, even if the members haven't been able to work this out. There are wider responsibilities to the country at stake here.

It's why the Tory approach of narrowing the candidates down to a final two chosen by the membership is so much better than the Labour system. It means that any leader has to have some support among their parliamentary colleagues (who know them better than anyone lets not forget) while still giving the members a "one member one vote" say in the final choice.

That approach recognises the reality that party members tend to be more extreme than voters at large, and left to their own device, Tory and Labour members alike would elect someone totally unacceptable to the electorate at large. Labour instead have gone for an approach that is democratic internally, but in doing so leaves it liable to elect a leader totally unsuited to being leader of the opposition, let alone PM.

Corbyn and the system that made him possible are the problem here, not the PLP.
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  #197  
Old 10-07-2016, 06:37 PM
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Corbyn has really disappointed me. A good and principaled man, he has no idea how to lead and bring people with him.
People seem to repeat this "good and principled man" line a lot.

I find it difficult to square with his support of Maduro, Gaddafi, etc, and the incredible collection of scumbags he seems to be friends with (yet always acts surprised when whatever horrible shit they believe is brought up to him).
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  #198  
Old 10-07-2016, 08:31 PM
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That might be true if Corbyn's performance hadn't been so utterly dismal in every conceivable way pretty much from the word go. He simply isn't up to the job and the PLP are quite right in this instance to act, even if the members haven't been able to work this out. There are wider responsibilities to the country at stake here.

except this isn't true? criticise Corbyn all you want for his ties to questionable people or for his inability to lead but Labour's actual record whilst in office is far from the terrible disaster that the PLP or the media makes out. There's a large section of his own party who would rather lose an election without Corbyn than win it with him and that's the REAL crux of his problem. They've been waiting for even the slightest credible reason to get rid of him and now they think they've found it.

Would I like Corbyn to stay on? in the short term yes. Would I prefer someone else? very much so.
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  #199  
Old 10-07-2016, 08:34 PM
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People seem to repeat this "good and principled man" line a lot.

I find it difficult to square with his support of Maduro, Gaddafi, etc, and the incredible collection of scumbags he seems to be friends with (yet always acts surprised when whatever horrible shit they believe is brought up to him).
I think what should be meant is that he has principles, not that his principles are unversally admired. He's generally taken a position and stuck to it. In modern politics, I think you need a bit more flexibility than he appears to show.
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Old 10-07-2016, 08:43 PM
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I think what should be meant is that he has principles, not that his principles are unversally admired. He's generally taken a position and stuck to it. In modern politics, I think you need a bit more flexibility than he appears to show.
not in current day politics, I'm not saying its a good thing, far from it, but all you need in current day politics is to hammer home any old shit.
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