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  #221  
Old 10-07-2016, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Tory government after Tory government.

You know what might be easier? Winning power on a platform you're not entirely happy with, then influencing your own side to enact better policies you do agree with.
I hoped for that when Blair won but it didn't happen
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  #222  
Old 10-07-2016, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by nickgusset View Post
Is this a fact or mere conjecture on your part?
Not conjecture. I've been a part of Labour Party politics on and off since the late '70's. This has been part of the make-up of the party for as long as I can remember. Corbyn and McDonnell have never changed their spots. At branch level you see it all the time. I got very frustrated with the navel gazing and the continual failure to genuinely address the real problems of real people. I've seen the eyes of these people glaze over when actual issues, beyond internal party wrangling and positioning and the 'big vision', are brought forward.
Engels imagined himself on a horse, for f*ck's sake, directing the unwashed and expendable masses to victory in his glorious revolution. This where Corbyn's wing of the party finds its roots. What's good for you is what's good for me.
I should imagine that Corbyn, and this is conjecture, tucks himself up in bed with a party rules manual and a hard copy of the last conference resolutions and composites rather than some solid data on the cost of living and an analyisis of access to services for the ordinary person.
As has been said, the party and country needs pragmatic politicians not nostalgic dreamers.
I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that Corbyn and McDonnell would rather see the destruction of the party than lose their control of it.

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  #223  
Old 10-07-2016, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Tory government after Tory government.

You know what might be easier? Winning power on a platform you're not entirely happy with, then influencing your own side to enact better policies you do agree with.
My mantra, and interestingly enough, that of the leadership of the Communist party during my brief flirtation.
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  #224  
Old 10-07-2016, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by salad fan club View Post
I hoped for that when Blair won but it didn't happen
So things like more nurses, better public services, 2000 odd new Childrens centres, all the stuff that wouldn't have happened if the Tories had been in power, that all counted for shit eh?

Better to stay self-righteous in opposition. **** the poor and those that need help, we can't risk being in a position to help people if it means another Blair.
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  #225  
Old 10-07-2016, 10:37 PM
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I hoped for that when Blair won but it didn't happen
This was Blair's biggest domestic failure.
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  #226  
Old 10-07-2016, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Stellavista View Post
My mantra, and interestingly enough, that of the leadership of the Communist party during my brief flirtation.
It's mental. The notion that, because of Iraq, the whole period of New Labour was somehow indistinguishable from what would have happened under a conservative government is just ridiculous.

You change nothing in opposition.
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  #227  
Old 10-07-2016, 10:45 PM
Kidofwonder Kidofwonder is offline
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
It's mental. The notion that, because of Iraq, the whole period of New Labour was somehow indistinguishable from what would have happened under a conservative government is just ridiculous.

You change nothing in opposition.
Blair made massive leaps at first but then it all started to come unraveled when he started to believe his own press and thought he was the messiah and could do whatever he wanted to.
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  #228  
Old 10-07-2016, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
Blair made massive leaps at first but then it all started to come unraveled when he started to believe his own press and thought he was the messiah and could do whatever he wanted to.
That's a reasonable analysis. But, on balance, rather a deeply flawed Blair than any Tory you care to mention.
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  #229  
Old 10-07-2016, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
So things like more nurses, better public services, 2000 odd new Childrens centres, all the stuff that wouldn't have happened if the Tories had been in power, that all counted for shit eh?

Better to stay self-righteous in opposition. **** the poor and those that need help, we can't risk being in a position to help people if it means another Blair.
I didn't say he didn't achieve anything but I did. Say I want more
Maybe you want a party that supports welfare reform and trident for example. If so Eagle is the one for you , but not me
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  #230  
Old 10-07-2016, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by salad fan club View Post
I didn't say he didn't achieve anything but I did. Say I want more
Maybe you want a party that supports welfare reform and trident for example. If so Eagle is the one for you , but not me
Who gives a shit what your party supports if it doesn't win? It's irrelevant, unless your main motivation is being able to pat yourself on the back at how great you are.

I'll take a party that delivers some of what I want over a party that says it agrees with me on everything but can't actually make any of it happen.
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  #231  
Old 10-07-2016, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by nickgusset View Post
On what do you Base this opinion? Have you seen him speak or do you rely on the half truths suppositions and downright lies based on out of context sentences lifted from longer speeches? Corbyn didn't bow low enough, Corbyn is unelectable... Do any of the media actually say what his policies are? No because far more people than they admit would support them. So it's not Corbyn that's the problem, media barons don't share Corbyn's vision.

So because they know people will agree with Corbyn's plan, they go for the man instead. the mantra unelectable is drip fed day by day, 'hard left Corbyn ' Corbyn is an adolescent trot student agitator

Grassroots Labour members are Trot entryists

All bollocks with no substance.

So adrenalin john, if you could expand on how you came to arrive at your decision that Corbyn needs to go I'm sure I'll enjoy reading it
I am not sure if you noticed but his colleagues have no confidence in him and publicly declared so.

He hasn't led his party, he hasn't engaged the public he has only preached to his section of the choir.

Sadly, he seems to have no strategy to solve this mess of his own making
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  #232  
Old 11-07-2016, 12:43 AM
salad fan club salad fan club is offline
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Who gives a shit what your party supports if it doesn't win? It's irrelevant, unless your main motivation is being able to pat yourself on the back at how great you are.

I'll take a party that delivers some of what I want over a party that says it agrees with me on everything but can't actually make any of it happen.
So are you saying you support Corbyn's but don't think he can win ?
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  #233  
Old 11-07-2016, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by salad fan club View Post
It depends what you want , the support of the centre could bring another Blair like Labour Party. I don't want that . I think the Corbyn route is a tougher one but one worth fighting for .
Apart from his warmongering I don't remember Blair being that bad. On the contrary he seemed to be able to get things done.

There must be some explanation for Labour winning elections during his time as party leader.
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  #234  
Old 11-07-2016, 06:22 AM
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I stumbled across this letter from a young Tony Blair to Michael Foot - it's 34 years old and yet much of it could have been written about what the Labour party is going through today. Plus ca change.

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T Benn is in one sense quite right in saying that the right wing of the Party is politically bankrupt. Socialism ultimately must appeal to the better minds of the people. You cannot do that if you are tainted overmuch with a pragmatic period in power. The phrases that rouse us or should rouse us, are bound to seem stale in the mouth of anyone who has been too closely intertwined with the establishment. It may not be fair but it is true.

But our left is in danger of falling prey to its perennial fault: introspection. There are many of us who were highly critical of the last Labour government who are tired now of retracing incessantly that same old ground. I know that in the Labour Coordinating Committee (of which I am a member), there are many who have that feeling. There is an arrogance and self-righteousness about many of the groups on the far left which is deeply unattractive to the ordinary would-be member: and a truly absurd gulf between the subject matter and language of the legion of pamphlets they write, and the people for whom the pamphlets are supposed to be written. There's too much mixing only with people with whom they agree. I wonder sometimes whether they would prefer to address a meeting of the converted than the unconverted.

...

I would appeal, too, for a sense of purpose in the Party. We have a duty much higher than the duty to any grouping or tendency or section of opinion within the Party. It is a duty we owe to the people in our country, to save them from a cruel and bigoted government, that has made disaster and despair a fact of their everyday lives.
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  #235  
Old 11-07-2016, 06:22 AM
Skintagain Skintagain is offline
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Who gives a shit what your party supports if it doesn't win? It's irrelevant, unless your main motivation is being able to pat yourself on the back at how great you are.

I'll take a party that delivers some of what I want over a party that says it agrees with me on everything but can't actually make any of it happen.
Take a deep breath hold it and count to 10.
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  #236  
Old 11-07-2016, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Who gives a shit what your party supports if it doesn't win? It's irrelevant, unless your main motivation is being able to pat yourself on the back at how great you are.

I'll take a party that delivers some of what I want over a party that says it agrees with me on everything but can't actually make any of it happen.
Too true. What's the point of eg John McDonnell stating that Labour should stop the in-fighting in order to work to support the disadvantaged in our society (or words to that effect) if by doing so there would be little or no chance of ever achieving the power to carry this out effectively. Labour's continuing principles versus pragmatism debate grinds on and on.
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  #237  
Old 11-07-2016, 07:53 AM
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Apart from his warmongering I don't remember Blair being that bad. On the contrary he seemed to be able to get things done.

There must be some explanation for Labour winning elections during his time as party leader.
The continuation and massive expansion of Major's failed PFI scheme along with the de-regulation of the Banks is what has caused the economiccatastrophe we're in. Add to that the war crimes and we can see that Blair really wasn't the best PM we could have had
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  #238  
Old 11-07-2016, 08:03 AM
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I stumbled across this letter from a young Tony Blair to Michael Foot - it's 34 years old and yet much of it could have been written about what the Labour party is going through today. Plus ca change.



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The problem though is that whereas the sentiments from Benn are totally valid, he doesn't actually say how he can get the best of both worlds that he seeks. He wants power to implement those sentiments, but seemingly has accepted that once in power Labour governments don't deliver, and instead drift into establishment politics. I simply ask how then can it be made to work in a future Labour government?
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  #239  
Old 11-07-2016, 08:09 AM
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It will be interesting to see who Eagle will run with. If she truly wants to make a statement about party unity, would assume that someone like Liz Kendall or Andy Burnham would be her number 2.
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  #240  
Old 11-07-2016, 08:11 AM
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So are you saying you support Corbyn's but don't think he can win ?
I don't "support" Corbyn, no. There are lots of things about him that make me uncomfortable. But he'd give me some of what I want, if he could win.

But he can't. So I get none of what I want.

You might be happy with that, I'm not. Hearing his supporters say that "it's not about winning its about creating a movement" is deeply worrying. Middle class students who care more about their ideology than helping those who need it most. The arrogance of it is astonishing.
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