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  #10121  
Old 21-02-2017, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
well it probably wasn't helped by Blanchflower et al walking out and saying, essentially, they didn't have a plan or a clue.
At the same time Blanchflower also said this:

"I should make it clear, I have never spoken to, met or communicated with Corbyn"

Hmmm
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  #10122  
Old 21-02-2017, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
Because labour have a perceived weakness on the economy. Team Corbyn especially so. That isn't something that can be resolved in a six month campaign prior to an election. Also they're trying to sell something which will be perceived to be new, again only way that works in the last six months prior to an election is if the shit has totally hit the fan, but I don't thta's the case the opposition would probably win even if they said nothing at all.
They certainly have a perceived weakness, which may be well founded, but that is not the same as saying they have no plans at all, which is how this discourse started a few posts ago.
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  #10123  
Old 21-02-2017, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Elephant with mouse gyp View Post
It's borrowing to invest in the physical and social infrastructure, straightforward left keynsianism. Meanwhile, Trump is making a right keynsian turn, borrowing to invest in the bottom line of shareholder USA, hence the stock market euphoria. With the Tories also now not bothered about borrowing more, it's possible the daft fear of government borrowing will go out of fashion. If/when there's a recession, they'll have little choice anyway.
Yeah it is. It's going to require vast borrowing even if McDonnell could actually get the 150bn from the private sector.

So given that why the reluctance to sell their idea properly.
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  #10124  
Old 21-02-2017, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
At the same time Blanchflower also said this:

"I should make it clear, I have never spoken to, met or communicated with Corbyn"

Hmmm
yep, it was McDonnell's thing. Remind me who the shadow chancellor is again?
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  #10125  
Old 21-02-2017, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
yep, it was McDonnell's thing. Remind me who the shadow chancellor is again?
Perhaps you should ask Blanchflower that question, as it was his quote.
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  #10126  
Old 21-02-2017, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
Yeah it is. It's going to require vast borrowing even if McDonnell could actually get the 150bn from the private sector.

So given that why the reluctance to sell their idea properly.
Let's say you're right and they haven't sold it properly, it's still better to have the right approach sold badly than the wrong approach sold well, and easier to fix. What's the Liberal plan btw?
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  #10127  
Old 21-02-2017, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Elephant with mouse gyp View Post
It's borrowing to invest in the physical and social infrastructure, straightforward left keynsianism. Meanwhile, Trump is making a right keynsian turn, borrowing to invest in the bottom line of shareholder USA, hence the stock market euphoria. With the Tories also now not bothered about borrowing more, it's possible the daft fear of government borrowing will go out of fashion. If/when there's a recession, they'll have little choice anyway.
I think most would accept borrowing for investment in, say, housing, transport, energy, manufacturing or new school and hospital building, as long as the taxpayer benefits rather than just corporations. The problem lies in the area of borrowing for current spending such as improving social care or the day to day running of the NHS. To me that should be paid for by tax increases or cuts to other areas of expenditure. That is the area that team corbyn should be spelling out. At this stage a general commitment to put up taxes if necessary to pay for specific improvements would be fine as long as he gave a broad area for taxation e.g. a 1% increase in NI for social care.
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  #10128  
Old 21-02-2017, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elephant with mouse gyp View Post
Let's say you're right and they haven't sold it properly, it's still better to have the right approach sold badly than the wrong approach sold well, and easier to fix. What's the Liberal plan btw?
as I said a page or so back. The right plan involves a serious evaluation of that spending before you commit cash. You cannot spend cash for the sake of spending cash as that would be idiotic nonsense, not all multiplier effects are created equally, and you'll end up where we were in 97-07 with a productivity issue in public services and many many billions of taxpayer dollars being flushed down the toilet. The commitment that Corbyn wants to make will significantly increase the amounts of interest we have to commit tax dollars towards so it is even more important that the money is spent with some serious degree of thought. I see little to no evidence of that being easy to fix with the incumbent leadership. If the only issues the socialists had to deal with was messaging we would have had a socialist PM in the last thirty years. There is massively more to deal with than just messaging.

As for the Liberal plan, no idea. I am not a member of that party nor am I trying trying to defend its policies (or lack thereof).
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  #10129  
Old 21-02-2017, 03:32 PM
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Well to be more accurate, he lost because he wasn't his brother.
The idea that David Miliband and tired blairite politics would have been popular is strange.
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  #10130  
Old 21-02-2017, 03:33 PM
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Reclaiming the flag from the f*cktards is no bad thing.
It is possible to be a patriotic Socialist.
No that I believe this candidate is one.
National socialist?

In all seriousness though I don't think socialist should pander to nationalism and patriotism, they aren't things that will ultimately help workers and are ideas for the rich to divide workers.
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  #10131  
Old 21-02-2017, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Oisin View Post
It's a parliamentary democracy not a Chinese party based political system. It is up to the leader to produce a programme that unites his MPs not for MPs to do what a party leader says. They are responsible to their constituents first, not party members. Corbyn draws his large salary as the official leader of the opposition in Parliament.He isn't paid to answer to party members. If he wants to decline his constitutional responsibility he should forgo the role and the salary. He can still be leader of the Labour party in Parliament and someone else can take the role of leader of the opposition.

He isn't being undermined by saboteurs, although he has been in the past, and is still making no progress. He is continuing on his long tradition of voting with the Tories, demanding loyalty while having shown none.

The average by-election swing is 16% from the government to the opposition. Corbyn is going to see a swing the other way. Labour are losing council seats to the LibDens in areas with no tradition of Lib Dem support like Rotherham. So much for the Brexit effect. He has approval ratings in the big figure minuses. He has negative approval figures in every demographic. This is mid electoral cycle where governments are at their lowest ebb.

By any measure Corbyn is doing a terrible job as opposition leader and party leader.
He clearly is being undermined by his MPs still and no government would survive having MPs like his. The negative press briefings, the lack of positive support, the constant sniping.

Also candidates of the Labour Party, are responsible to their membership. If they want to just be responsible to constituents they should stand as independents. If they want to stand as Labour candidates then they need to do what members want them to.
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  #10132  
Old 21-02-2017, 03:41 PM
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Apart from the fact you, Alderhorst, voted for the Liberals in all their austerity glory, in evaluating Labour's policy, you must also evaluate the others or how do you make a choice? Asking for plans in fine detail now is daft and unheard of for the reasons SE25 has outlined and if the government can't do it, it's a bit much to expect the opposition to.

Your flush money down the toilet line is also wrong. A large chunk of that money went in higher wages for public sector workers, a necessary adjustment after years of falling behind. With the Tories and Liberals those wages were frozen and hundreds of thousands of useful jobs destroyed. We see the results now in the staffing crisis in the councils, NHS and schools, the social infrastructure that boosts overall and future productivity. Penny wise pound foolish.

NKE - McDonnell has made the kind of investment spending v current spending split you suggest.

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  #10133  
Old 21-02-2017, 03:58 PM
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I think you are being disingenuous here. Corbyn has always had vision for our economy, which is one of the reasons he convinced hundreds of thousands of new members into the party, and why he was elected leader in the first place.

Whether he has the skills to convince the electorate at large is quite another matter, and it seems he will fail to do this, especially if they forget, avoid or ignore like you, what he has already said on this, and continues to proffer.
That's not a plan it's a fantasy. Quote from the article.
"Corbyn said this would be financed by a resultant stronger economy and by cracking down on tax evasion".

That's just tosh, nothing is costed. 500bn for the hit it and hope the magic money tree has a good year.
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  #10134  
Old 21-02-2017, 04:00 PM
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Yes you are correct (EMWG). I should have recalled his comments about being an iron chancellor in terms of day to day spending but having plenty of ideas about borrowing for investing.
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  #10135  
Old 21-02-2017, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
do you know what, I am not so fussed about the quantum as the effectiveness. Stupid unthoughtout spending is as ludicrous as stupid unthoughtout cuts. Sensible well thought out spending will pay for itself and some.

If you look back through 1997-2006 what you will see is a considerable increase in public spending, but if you look at the measure of public service outcomes, you see the increase in cost of inputs well ahead of the increase in measured outputs. Basically a significant decline in productivity. Essentially we got a very poor bang for our buck.

this is what happens if you spend money stupidly, without a decent plan. It should be a responsibility of any government to use our tax dollars as effectively as possible, be that in cutting (and there was plenty of stupid cutting) or spending. Stupidity leads to inefficient use of our taxes.
This is spot on. A shame as money needed to be spent in 1997 and if they were a bit smarter with it the UK would be in such a good position now.

Same goes for the cutting. Some of it was smart and has improved productivity. Some was stupid and done without though where we had the crazy stuff of making people redundant giveing them a pay off and the recruiting the exact same people a year later to do the same job.
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  #10136  
Old 21-02-2017, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
The idea that David Miliband and tired blairite politics would have been popular is strange.
He would now be Prime Minister though - he would have trounced lovable Dave. Shame the unions chose an ally rather than someone in the slightest bit electable - suppose they would rather stick to their principles and be forever in opposition.
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  #10137  
Old 21-02-2017, 05:56 PM
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That's not a plan it's a fantasy. Quote from the article.
"Corbyn said this would be financed by a resultant stronger economy and by cracking down on tax evasion".

That's just tosh, nothing is costed. 500bn for the hit it and hope the magic money tree has a good year.
One day someone might get the opportunity to try it and test your theory, but there is little hope of that while governments look after their own and tell the population of the sixth richest country in the world that we are so poor that austerity for most of us, is an absolute essential.
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  #10138  
Old 21-02-2017, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
He clearly is being undermined by his MPs still and no government would survive having MPs like his. The negative press briefings, the lack of positive support, the constant sniping.

Also candidates of the Labour Party, are responsible to their membership. If they want to just be responsible to constituents they should stand as independents. If they want to stand as Labour candidates then they need to do what members want them to.
Under the British system in what way are candidates of any party responsible to their membership? Salaries are paid for by public money and they are in office by grace of their constituents. When they take their seats they take a legal oath of allegiance to the Queen, not to the party. Only their constituents can remove them from their seat.

If they want to just be responsible to the party they should work for the party not for the people.
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  #10139  
Old 21-02-2017, 06:22 PM
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Under the British system in what way are candidates of any party responsible to their membership?
Easy for independents to answer that, as they don't have a party or membership.

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Salaries are paid for by public money and they are in office by grace of their constituents.
Not really. They are paid out of the national treasury coffers which is funded by taxpayers from all shades of political leanings, not just their own constituents

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When they take their seats they take a legal oath of allegiance to the Queen, not to the party.
I don't see the relevance of that point. If you are an MP representing your party at a local election, once elected you also accept the party whip. If you don't like that, then you go independent as an alternative option.


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Only their constituents can remove them from their seat.
This is true if the majority don't like him/her and/or the party they represent via the fptp system.

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If they want to just be responsible to the party they should work for the party not for the people.
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  #10140  
Old 21-02-2017, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
One day someone might get the opportunity to try it and test your theory, but there is little hope of that while governments look after their own and tell the population of the sixth richest country in the world that we are so poor that austerity for most of us, is an absolute essential.
But no one is going to get elected on a punt. Let's try it out and hope it doesn't bring economic disaster. It's fantasy politics.
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