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View Poll Results: To fly or not to fly?
Yes I'd fly on this plane no problem. 14 36.84%
No you must be joking 14 36.84%
Yes but I wouldn't waste my money on a a return ticket. 3 7.89%
I'd go to Argos instead and buy a toasted cheese sandwich maker. 7 18.42%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 23-10-2019, 10:00 PM
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To fly or not to fly?

Boeing letting this beast loose again? Would you board with no hesitation or would you pass?To view the link you have to Register or Login
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Old 23-10-2019, 10:04 PM
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"MCAS ON / MCAS OFF" sounds like something Mr Miyagi would be shouting at Daniel-san.
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Old 23-10-2019, 10:04 PM
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And on that basis, I want to invest.
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Old 23-10-2019, 10:08 PM
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Probably the safest time to fly on one when it comes back into service... pilots will be super attentive (not saying they aren't anyway), and another issue will drop Boeing deeper into a hole.
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Old 23-10-2019, 10:12 PM
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Boeing rushed this new technology through the testing phase, technology they seemed to bolt on quickly to get it in the air and compete with the new Airbus

As always boiled down to lining their own pockets, but they have lost so much trust.

Who would want to board this now?
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Old 23-10-2019, 10:19 PM
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Would you know you were flying on one until you got on it ?
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Old 23-10-2019, 10:21 PM
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Having worked for many years with the FAA I believe they will have done due diligence in ensuring the issue(s) is resolved - or at least managed differently, but that I mean pilot training in the area of the problem if it was to reoccur. Apparently the training was there previously, but not all airlines signed up for this particular training module... which is insane.
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Old 23-10-2019, 10:39 PM
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No way i flew hours after the disaster from KL to Jakarta with Lion Air in what seemed like a new plane as well. Obviously i was a little anxious but it was heightened by the fact we made a false take off as in we were in the air for 5 seconds or so and the pilot landed straight away after we all heard beeping sounds from the aircraft and i must admit i shit my pants it seemed to me something was not right as the engines seemed to drop and that 5 seconds seemed like eternity maybe it was 3 i don't know but we had to taxi back into the terminal and board another plane. I don't know what might have happened had that plane taken off but i was once a hardy soul on a plane and must of flown to most airports in Asia and Europe but now i listen to every sound and it has certainly made me a bit of a pussy where flying is concerned. RIP to the poor souls that lost their lives i cannot think of a worse way to go knowing your life is going to end and that there is nothing you can do about it and you have minutes to stare death in the face.
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Old 23-10-2019, 10:43 PM
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I voted before reading the thread and assumed it was about climate change.

On that basis I went for the you must be joking option.

Realising now it’s about the 737, i’d have voted yes - if I was still flying - It wouldn’t bother me.
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Old 23-10-2019, 10:51 PM
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No way i flew hours after the disaster from KL to Jakarta with Lion Air in what seemed like a new plane as well. Obviously i was a little anxious but it was heightened by the fact we made a false take off as in we were in the air for 5 seconds or so and the pilot landed straight away after we all heard beeping sounds from the aircraft and i must admit i shit my pants it seemed to me something was not right as the engines seemed to drop and that 5 seconds seemed like eternity maybe it was 3 i don't know but we had to taxi back into the terminal and board another plane.

Should this not be in the "Have you ever pooed yourself in public" thread?
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Old 23-10-2019, 11:06 PM
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Should this not be in the "Have you ever pooed yourself in public" thread?
A bit more detail and that would be a worthy contribution.
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Old 23-10-2019, 11:06 PM
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I hate flying but I would have no problem now and say yes under the premise of more safety checks would have been done on this plane than any other plane flying now to make sure there is no feck up.
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Old 24-10-2019, 11:11 AM
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It's all fine and dandy saying the FAA has done due diligence. They will send instructions to airlines to implement whatever changes they come up with.

You then have to trust the airlines to implement the changes. In this part of the world, I don't. So I won't be flying on one of these planes.
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Old 24-10-2019, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
Having worked for many years with the FAA I believe they will have done due diligence in ensuring the issue(s) is resolved - or at least managed differently, but that I mean pilot training in the area of the problem if it was to reoccur. Apparently the training was there previously, but not all airlines signed up for this particular training module... which is insane.
But they said the pilots did nothing wrong in both crashes, didn't they?
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Old 24-10-2019, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Worksop Palace View Post
Would you know you were flying on one until you got on it ?
You could probably spot the Max from the fact it has larger engines than a regular 737. But I think there's a reliance from some airlines that people wouldn't be aware enough to see the differences.

Southwest for example, one of the biggest operators of the type in the US, have said they're not changing the name of the plane and I assume this is because they don't think passengers will know what to look for.

As far as the aircraft is concerned, I'd fly on it.

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It's all fine and dandy saying the FAA has done due diligence. They will send instructions to airlines to implement whatever changes they come up with.

You then have to trust the airlines to implement the changes. In this part of the world, I don't. So I won't be flying on one of these planes.
These aren't just procedural changes, but they'll be technical too. Boeing aren't just having to change the software that the plane relies on, but from my understanding are going to have to install a system which would alert pilots of a mismatch in information that the MCAS system is receiving from two of the sensors on the exterior of the aircraft. It was an optional system that US airlines tended to opt into -- a light which basically lit up when there was a disagreement between the two sensors.

All said though, Boeing can certainly say they expect the 737 to return to service by New Year, but that decision isn't up to them. It's up to the FAA, and over here the European Aviation Safety Authority, to determine whether they are satisfied that the aircraft is safe.

It's also likely that these system and technical updates will take a few months to roll out to fleets.

Most US airlines have knocked back the return to service to February 2020.
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Old 24-10-2019, 11:33 AM
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No way.
Those responsible fly on BBJ's, they let the peasants fly on their cost cut software beast.
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Old 24-10-2019, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
Having worked for many years with the FAA I believe they will have done due diligence in ensuring the issue(s) is resolved - or at least managed differently, but that I mean pilot training in the area of the problem if it was to reoccur. Apparently the training was there previously, but not all airlines signed up for this particular training module... which is insane.
No, that's not right.

Pilots were trained in recovering from issues similar to this -- in what is known as a trim runaway -- where the aircraft's trim wheel (used to modify the plane's pitch to balance the aircraft in flight) would go out of control resulting in the nose suddenly pointing downwards. The answer to that scenario was to disconnect the plane's automatic trimming system and to manually adjust it. You'd spot that runaway issue because the trim wheel (a physical wheel in a 737, next to the pilot's legs) would literally spin.

The problem in this case is that the MCAS system would adjust the trim automatically to prevent a stall (which is what the system was designed to do) but each time the pilots readjusted the plane's pitch, the MCAS system would increase the downwards direction. It would do so to such an extent that by the time pilots realised they needed to turn off the automatic trim, the nose pitch down would be so great that it would take extreme strength to correct it.

This wasn't pilot error, or a failure in training, but a problem with a system which was poorly designed.
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Old 24-10-2019, 12:38 PM
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Would you know you were flying on one until you got on it ?
This is the main point for me. I have already flown on one. When you fly with Norwegian it does not tell you when booking which plane you would be on (i dont think other airlines do either?) Also even if it did, as we know due to cancellations/delays you can find yourself on other planes from the fleet called in from other routes.

Before the grounding Norwegian was the European airline with the most 737 Max-8 (18 of them) and they were investing hard to get many more so sure they will again, makes me think now if i should switch to Easyjet instead
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Old 24-10-2019, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDSdaEAGLE View Post
No, that's not right.

Pilots were trained in recovering from issues similar to this -- in what is known as a trim runaway -- where the aircraft's trim wheel (used to modify the plane's pitch to balance the aircraft in flight) would go out of control resulting in the nose suddenly pointing downwards. The answer to that scenario was to disconnect the plane's automatic trimming system and to manually adjust it. You'd spot that runaway issue because the trim wheel (a physical wheel in a 737, next to the pilot's legs) would literally spin.

The problem in this case is that the MCAS system would adjust the trim automatically to prevent a stall (which is what the system was designed to do) but each time the pilots readjusted the plane's pitch, the MCAS system would increase the downwards direction. It would do so to such an extent that by the time pilots realised they needed to turn off the automatic trim, the nose pitch down would be so great that it would take extreme strength to correct it.

This wasn't pilot error, or a failure in training, but a problem with a system which was poorly designed.
Thanks Rob for the detailed explanation.

I think I was thinking about something I read, which maybe along these lines (from CNN back in May 2019):

Quote:
Following the crashes involving Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines in October and March in which 346 people died, some pilots and aviation consultants criticized Boeing for the aircraft's training requirements that previously involved a short, self-administered online course and no simulator time.
While the Federal Aviation Administration has not yet announced any decisions on final training requirements, Boeing's training proposal for the aircraft's updated software included computer lessons without mandated simulator training, according to a pilots' union and a source familiar with the discussions. The training proposal has not been previously reported.
The proposal to require only computer-based training could save airlines money and time when the FAA lifts flight restrictions on the Boeing-made aircraft. When the 737 Max initially went into service, as a selling point, Boeing told airlines it was similar enough to previous versions of the aircraft that they could avoid more extensive simulator training, CNN previously reported.
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Old 24-10-2019, 05:30 PM
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BTW... found this article pretty interesting... (and damning)

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