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  #1001  
Old 31-07-2011, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara4003
Carry on the insults, Maz. You're reaching an all time peak.
It was not an insult.

It was an opinion.
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  #1002  
Old 31-07-2011, 09:43 PM
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Calling someone inhumane is an insult, however you want to dress it up.
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  #1003  
Old 31-07-2011, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle
OK except the case never took place the Express paid 500000 read the first paragraph for the reasons as given by the editor to MPs they were not prepared to take the McCanns through the courts..help me a little here the law on libel and criminal has different basis on proof of crime ?
Criminal law has a higher standard of proof - things have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt - Libel is a civil burden of proof - on balance of probabilities - I am not sure of your comment here - the editors were not in a postion to "take the McCanns" through the courts - the McCanns were suing them and not vice versa - they settled because they did not have a leg to stand on, the court case did not take place only because it settled - there were however legal proceedings that were started - it is incorrect to say that there was no libel case - it seems to be something the anti-McCann people want to make a big point of - presumably because they hate the idea of the Mccanns actually winning any legal proceedings.

ES - without pointing out the obvious - that is one comment in a whole sea of evidence - however I am sure it was followed up and absolutely no evidence of any improper goings on were found or we would have heard all about it - so why do you consider that she may be right and everyone else wrong. I also have to ask if she was concerned at the time (being a GP and all that) why did she do nothing? could it have been a misheard comment about someone else etc etc. Without any thing at all to corroberate it, it means nothing by itself - investigations often throw up possible leads which fizzle out when they are shown to have no basis in fact - is there anything at all to suggest that that is not the case here.
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  #1004  
Old 31-07-2011, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara4003
Calling someone inhumane is an insult, however you want to dress it up.
Exactly.

Man up Maz.
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  #1005  
Old 31-07-2011, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw16girl
Criminal law has a higher standard of proof - thingsh ave to be proved beyond reasonable doubt - Libel is a civil burden of proof - on balance of probabilities - I am not sure of your comment here - the editors were not in a postion to "take the McCanns" through the courts - the McCanns were suing them and not vice versa - they settled because they did not have a leg to stand on. and the court case did not take place because it settled - there were however legal proceededings thatwere started - it is incorrect to say that there was no libel case - it seems to be something the anti-Mccann people want to make a big point of - presumably because hey hate the idea of the Mccanns actually winning the elgal argument.
I think the defence would have involved putting the evidence as it was then through the courts...the words taking the McCanns throughthe courts by the way are not my words but the editors......Actually the point was for my information the evidence as was is not clearly enough to pass the civil burden of proof.....I find that interesting ... enough to make me think...

PS Hope you enjoying a decent bottle of wine I have never known you make so many spelling mistakes in one post


Edit You changed the orignal ...

Last edited by N Herts Eagle; 31-07-2011 at 09:58 PM.
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  #1006  
Old 31-07-2011, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw16girl
I would once again point out that expressing an opinion can be libellous unless it is based on very sound facts .
Where do probability-based opinions fit in?

Is it okay to say it is more likely to be murder or neglect than abduction, based on your honest interpretation of statistics? We've had one bid of 80/20 against abduction already.

On that, it's hard to find easy to compare figures, but, annually, there are more child abductions by strangers than child murders by parents, at least in the UK, though it's pretty close.

"there are only around 60 to 70 successful child abductions at the hands of strangers each year in the UK"

(from To view the link you have to Register or Login)

"The Freedom of Information Act had to be invoked to get some councils to release key documents.
In the end, we uncovered a total of 183 child killings between 2004 and 2008 attributed to a parent, a parent's partner or a carer.
In 2004, there were 29. The number doubled to 55 in 2007. The trend is upwards; shamingly so.

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  #1007  
Old 31-07-2011, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FORZA SELHURST
You may be on to something. Below is the impression of the suspect they were looking for abducting 'Maddie'. I mean, who on earth could look like that and not be dodgy?


George Harrison managed it.

He had better teeth though.
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  #1008  
Old 31-07-2011, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant.Palace
George Harrison managed it.

He had better teeth though.
Stop plagiarising Gold

I still think he looks more like Freddie Mercury.
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  #1009  
Old 31-07-2011, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heb 7:4
Firesign has no sympathy for them because he believes they killed Maddy.
FFS, will you stop saying that?

I have never believe that the McCanns killed their daughter, nor have I ever implied it.
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  #1010  
Old 31-07-2011, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle
Hmmmm and with all the phone hacking scandal and the belief by the McCanns their phones were hacked .......my 50p is on the worst to come by NI is it will involve this case
I, for one, fear you could be correct.
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  #1011  
Old 31-07-2011, 10:28 PM
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Who was listening to Kate and Gerry McCann?
BY JON CLEMENTS ON FEB 18, 09 02:55 Daily Mirror, Crime Correspondent

A few days ago I received an interesting letter from Leicestershire police about the Madeleine McCann investigation.

I had asked them, in July, if they had got any warrants (under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act) to use surveillance powers - such as phone tapping and email interception on behalf of the Portuguese police.
The force initially stalled saying it needed to "consult other Agencies" before replying.

After a six month delay, Leicestershire has now claimed it is exempt from Freedom of Information laws in this case due to "national security".

I've put in dozens of FoI requests to police forces over the years, some you get and some you don't but "national security" is a new one on me.

To make matters even murkier, Leicestershire claimed a second exemption because the information I requested could relate to "the Security bodies".

A quick look at the FoI Act reveals "Security bodies" are MI5, MI6, GCHQ (pictured above), special forces (such as the SAS) and the Serious Organised Crime Agency.

Hmm.

Despite claiming these exemptions, Leicestershire seem at pains to neither confirm nor deny they hold any information relevant to my request anyway.

Check out (slowly I suggest) the tortuous conclusion to the three page letter explaining their stance.

"It is our decision that the Leicestershire Constabulary must maintain a position of neither confirming nor denying that any relevant information is held and that this response, which neither confirms nor denies that information is held, should not be taken as conclusive evidence that the information you have requested exists or does not exist".

Thanks, but I think that is a rather long-winded way of saying Foxtrot Oscar.

However, it does beg the question just who was bugging the McCanns after they returned from Praia da Luz?

And what has the answer got to do with national security?
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  #1012  
Old 31-07-2011, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle
Hmmmm and with all the phone hacking scandal and the belief by the McCanns their phones were hacked .......my 50p is on the worst to come by NI is it will involve this case
just to help join up a few dots...

The late MP and broadcaster Clement Freud had a villa in Praia da Luz and the McCanns were guests of his several times during their stay in the aftermath of their daughter's disappearance. Clement's son is Matthew Freud owns Freud Communications who Clarence Mitchell now works for. Matthew Freud is married to Elisabeth Murdoch, daughter of Rupert.
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  #1013  
Old 31-07-2011, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw16girl

ES - without pointing out the obvious - that is one comment in a whole sea of evidence - however I am sure it was followed up and absolutely no evidence of any improper goings on were found or we would have heard all about it - so why do you consider that she may be right and everyone else wrong. I also have to ask if she was concerned at the time (being a GP and all that) why did she do nothing? could it have been a misheard comment about someone else etc etc. Without any thing at all to corroberate it, it means nothing by itself - investigations often throw up possible leads which fizzle out when they are shown to have no basis in fact - is there anything at all to suggest that that is not the case here.
Interesting thing about the Gaspar statement is that it was made of her own violition. In fact there is no way that Dr Gaspar could have known that over in Portugal a British social worker had also made her concerns known to the PJ about David Payne.

Processos Volume X111 Pages 3422 - 3424
SERVICE INFORMATION
Date: 2007 – 06 - 12


To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation, Dr. Gonçalo Amaral

From: José Monteiro, Inspector

Re: Collection of Information

In the sequence of information transmitted to this Police force, on this date we went to the residence of Yvonne Warren Martin. The team was composed of the undersigned and his colleague Carlos Antunes, in conversation with Yvonne the following was established:

- On May 04, 2007, at around 07H00 she heard about the disappearance of an English girl from Praia da Luz, Lagos, from Sky News or BBC.
- Having worked for 25 years in the area of child protection, she felt obliged to offer help to her compatriots and went to Praia da Luz.

– At around 09H00, she met the McCann couple next to the apartment from where the child had disappeared, accompanied by a third person, a male, who seemed quite familiar to her.

- This third person of the group appeared to be an intimate (friend) of the family as he was the one who, when the media arrived, began to explain what was happening and answering questions, thereby saving the couple from this upset. Afterwards, she further confirmed his closeness to the family when she saw him taking care of the couple’s twins, also small children.

- She identified herself and presented her credentials and immediately began talking to the mother of the missing child as she was visibly upset with the situation.

- During the conversation the mother told her that she did not understand why a couple had abducted her daughter.

- However, the third individual overheard this conversation and interrupted Ms. Martin and took the McCann couple away from her.
This same individual came shortly afterwards to tell her that the couple did not want to talk to her any further and did not require her help—an action that appeared quite strange to her.

- Meanwhile, she heard comments next to the complex reception that the British Consul was coming to the site and she decided to wait for this person in order to offer her help.

- During this time, she saw the third individual two more times. Firstly, when he was accompanying an older woman and the McCann twins, demonstrating in this way, the trust that the couple had in him by letting him take care of their two children. On the second occasion, he accompanied what appeared to her to be plain clothed police officers.

--YVONNE describes the third individual as follows:
Aged about 35 years
Of about 1,80 metres in height
Of normal physical appearance
Having short, dark hair
Using graduated glasses of small dimensions with rectangular lenses
Having a round face
Presenting a scar above his eyebrow and on his left cheek
- Speaking with a Southern English accent
Wearing light trousers, cream or beige coloured, and a dark polo shirt.

– When she was back home, following the case on English television, she saw the same individual and this time, her initial doubt faded and she concluded that she had seen the face in the course of her professional activity in child protection, not being able to discern if he was a suspect/arguido or witness

- She clarifies that she is capable of making a photographic identification of the individual, and emphasises that with the identified photo it is possible to access the database ofthe British Police and ascertain whether the individual is related to any crimes involving children


Bringing this to your attention,

Signed

José Monteiro
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  #1014  
Old 31-07-2011, 11:08 PM
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Ant.Palace Ant.Palace is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara4003
Stop plagiarising Gold

I still think he looks more like Freddie Mercury.

Am I?

Sorry I couldn't be arsed to read back the last 20 pages.
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  #1015  
Old 01-08-2011, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firesign
Having short, dark hair
He's not guilty of anything then.
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  #1016  
Old 01-08-2011, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firesign
Interesting thing about the Gaspar statement is that it was made of her own violition. In fact there is no way that Dr Gaspar could have known that over in Portugal a British social worker had also made her concerns known to the PJ about David Payne.

Processos Volume X111 Pages 3422 - 3424
SERVICE INFORMATION
Date: 2007 – 06 - 12


To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation, Dr. Gonçalo Amaral

From: José Monteiro, Inspector

Re: Collection of Information

In the sequence of information transmitted to this Police force, on this date we went to the residence of Yvonne Warren Martin. The team was composed of the undersigned and his colleague Carlos Antunes, in conversation with Yvonne the following was established:

- On May 04, 2007, at around 07H00 she heard about the disappearance of an English girl from Praia da Luz, Lagos, from Sky News or BBC.
- Having worked for 25 years in the area of child protection, she felt obliged to offer help to her compatriots and went to Praia da Luz.

– At around 09H00, she met the McCann couple next to the apartment from where the child had disappeared, accompanied by a third person, a male, who seemed quite familiar to her.

- This third person of the group appeared to be an intimate (friend) of the family as he was the one who, when the media arrived, began to explain what was happening and answering questions, thereby saving the couple from this upset. Afterwards, she further confirmed his closeness to the family when she saw him taking care of the couple’s twins, also small children.

- She identified herself and presented her credentials and immediately began talking to the mother of the missing child as she was visibly upset with the situation.

- During the conversation the mother told her that she did not understand why a couple had abducted her daughter.

- However, the third individual overheard this conversation and interrupted Ms. Martin and took the McCann couple away from her.
This same individual came shortly afterwards to tell her that the couple did not want to talk to her any further and did not require her help—an action that appeared quite strange to her.

- Meanwhile, she heard comments next to the complex reception that the British Consul was coming to the site and she decided to wait for this person in order to offer her help.

- During this time, she saw the third individual two more times. Firstly, when he was accompanying an older woman and the McCann twins, demonstrating in this way, the trust that the couple had in him by letting him take care of their two children. On the second occasion, he accompanied what appeared to her to be plain clothed police officers.

--YVONNE describes the third individual as follows:
Aged about 35 years
Of about 1,80 metres in height
Of normal physical appearance
Having short, dark hair
Using graduated glasses of small dimensions with rectangular lenses
Having a round face
Presenting a scar above his eyebrow and on his left cheek
- Speaking with a Southern English accent
Wearing light trousers, cream or beige coloured, and a dark polo shirt.

– When she was back home, following the case on English television, she saw the same individual and this time, her initial doubt faded and she concluded that she had seen the face in the course of her professional activity in child protection, not being able to discern if he was a suspect/arguido or witness

- She clarifies that she is capable of making a photographic identification of the individual, and emphasises that with the identified photo it is possible to access the database ofthe British Police and ascertain whether the individual is related to any crimes involving children


Bringing this to your attention,

Signed

José Monteiro
So what happened then? Or are you suggesting that she is still out there just waiting to identify this man and has never been spoken to - you can't pick bits out of statements and then present them as evidence without then saying what the follow up was - or rather you can but it is fairly useless really. Where is she now - why isn't she saying anything if this was never followed up - makes you think it probably was and led nowhere.
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  #1017  
Old 01-08-2011, 08:31 AM
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Maz Maz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExiledStirling
Exactly.

Man up Maz.
Not that I want to be using this thread for English grammar lessons, but you will note if you look at what I actually posted that at no point did I insult any posters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz
By suggesting that I find some people's views abhorrent and inhumane, I am in no way stifling their ability to hold or express those views.
There is of course a very big difference between calling someone's views inhumane and calling that person inhumane.

Suggest that you all take a deep breath now...
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  #1018  
Old 01-08-2011, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw16girl
you can't pick bits out of statements and then present them as evidence without then saying what the follow up was
That is the typical modus operandi of the internet conspiracist.

The police have the whole picture in front of them. The internet conspiracist, by contrast, can simply present tiny bits of that picture and suggest that - lacking the whole picture - it just doesn't make sense. It's the easiest job in the world.
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:44 AM
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firesign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Well I could post up all 30,000 pages of info released by the PJ but I’m not sure everyone would appreciate that. The fact is that the PJ took stacks of witness statements from staff, local residents, and holidaymakers. At the same time they were being led down lots of blind alleys (imho) by following-up loads of ‘sightings’ and they were also having to deal with the world’s media on their doorstep.

Police investigations often take time. The were a number of witnesses that Amaral wanted to (re)interview at the time he was taken off the case and I think Yvonne Martin was one of them. As an aside Amaral’s successor Paulo Rebelo came to conclusion that the case could not move forward unless the Tapas 9 returned to Portugal for a reconstruction of the events of 3rd May 2007 (in order to address the inconsistencies in their statements), however as well know they collectively refused and thus the case was shelved.
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firesign
Well I could post up all 30,000 pages of info released by the PJ but I’m not sure everyone would appreciate that.
I am sure that the police have read them as well, if that helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by firesign
Amaral’s successor Paulo Rebelo came to conclusion that the case could not move forward unless the Tapas 9 returned to Portugal for a reconstruction of the events of 3rd May 2007 .
That's such a ridiculous statement : even I have a better opinion of the Portuguese police than he does, clearly.
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