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  #261  
Old 12-11-2017, 10:07 AM
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The Japanese were in negotiation with Russia, whom they had not fought because of a pact between the nations made in 1941, They were determined to keep the Emperor in charge and control of lands taken and the USA would not allow that, they wanted unconditional surrender, occupation and prosecution of war criminals So Japan went (or tried to go) to Stalin to discuss surrender with him instead. Stalin had a lot to gain from this so it was a real threat to the Allies.
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  #262  
Old 12-11-2017, 10:10 AM
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That's my understanding but I'm not good on the Eastern war tbh, I expect a bit of reading would change my view, didn't take long to turn up this article for instance

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  #263  
Old 12-11-2017, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Chief Brody View Post
The successes of the land mass they took in the first 3 years of a 5 1/2 year War.

No, there were other key factors at play other than a drug.

And if you persist with that blinkered view - It clearly enabled their key military qualities to flourish over prolonged spells based on your premise.

Not really understanding the point you are trying to force, as your original reference to this was trying to argue the point that GB was on the verge of military collapse. I’ve provided clear detail on why we were not.

I sense an agenda but don’t want to derail from an enjoyable thread.
I'm not forcing any point just that conventional views of history are not always right or indeed paint the true picture. And it makes people uncomfortable like you "sensing" an agenda. Which there is none. That fascist Germany has been painted as an orderly and ruthless army isn't the true picture and its destruction of the allied forces in 1940 could have been complete if they had not halted outside Dunkirk. But for Hitler's paranoia and confusion over the rapid advance driven principally by Pervitin.
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  #264  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:19 AM
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I think bomber command also issued benzedrine to crews.
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  #265  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:22 AM
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I think bomber command also issued benzedrine to crews.

Quite.
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  #266  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:25 AM
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I'm not forcing any point.....

<>

......the rapid advance driven principally by Pervitin.

?


I don't think that anybody is doubting its use, just that they are doubting its effect on the outcome.
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  #267  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:28 AM
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?


I don't think that anybody is doubting its use, just that they are doubting its effect on the outcome.
Exactly.In all of the memoirs and recollections of German soldiers I have read there is not one mention of this drug....
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  #268  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:43 AM
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Estimates of Allied consumption of amphetamines during the Second World War range from $870,000 in sales of Benzedrine Sulphate in 1943, to a staggering 72 million tablets supplied to Great Britain (and about the same amount to the United States Armed Forces) throughout the war. Although the Allies had enthusiastically adopted stimulants, the Germans largely abandoned methamphetamine by 1941, with German officials reclassifying Pervitin as a “dangerously addictive narcotic.” They weren’t wrong: there was evidence that abuse of amphetamines produced “restlessness, tremors, insomnia, talkativeness and irritability…Confusion, assaultiveness, hallucinations, delirium, panic states and suicidal or homicidal tendencies have also been observed,” according to a 1941 pharmacology textbook. However, despite the harmful side effects associated with amphetamine abuse, there is little evidence that Benzedrine impairment was responsible for any major wartime disasters.
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  #269  
Old 12-11-2017, 12:25 PM
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WW2 Discussion

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I'm not forcing any point just that conventional views of history are not always right or indeed paint the true picture. And it makes people uncomfortable like you "sensing" an agenda. Which there is none. That fascist Germany has been painted as an orderly and ruthless army isn't the true picture....

Yes, you are.

I’m not uncomfortable, I simply believe your tack lacks any credibility in substantiating the point. It’s also somewhat random.

Although I’m not convinced anyone has been banging a mantra of ‘Alles in Ordnung’, the Germans were orderly and ruthless from a practical and cultural POV. That’s not to say it was always successfully implemented, but their default position was precisely that.
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  #270  
Old 12-11-2017, 12:37 PM
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Exactly.In all of the memoirs and recollections of German soldiers I have read there is not one mention of this drug....

Was thinking the same. I’ve read pretty well on this and have known a fair number of veterans. Can’t recall either referencing it.

Perhaps they did not want to emphasise this, or perhaps it was not considered influential?
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  #271  
Old 12-11-2017, 02:37 PM
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Was thinking the same. I’ve read pretty well on this and have known a fair number of veterans. Can’t recall either referencing it.

Perhaps they did not want to emphasise this, or perhaps it was not considered influential?
Talking of meeting veterans I was introduced to 'Uncle Otto' in a restaurant in the Dordogne quite near Oradour who loudly informed me that he was in the Waffen SS.You could hear a pin drop!He was interned in Scotland after the war,worked on a farm,married a local girl and never went home.Quite a typical story for SS prisoners sent to Britain I understand.
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  #272  
Old 12-11-2017, 03:09 PM
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About 10 years ago, I got instructions to investigate a former WW2 prisoner of war camp in Peckham Rye.
Not very large, but constructed mostly from corrugated steel. About the size of a very small B&Q.
Now open ground sitting next to a children's playground

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  #273  
Old 12-11-2017, 03:30 PM
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Talking of meeting veterans I was introduced to 'Uncle Otto' in a restaurant in the Dordogne quite near Oradour who loudly informed me that he was in the Waffen SS.You could hear a pin drop!He was interned in Scotland after the war,worked on a farm,married a local girl and never went home.Quite a typical story for SS prisoners sent to Britain I understand.

Aye. I know/knew several Germans who settled here. One was Das Reich.

I’ve been fortunate enough in my interests to be involved/around veteran functions over the years.

Their recollections aren’t always to be relied on though. I spoke to one who said he was in x Regiment, under y officer. When I told him y officer was in charge of z Regiment he looked at me and said ‘Well, now I know’
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  #274  
Old 12-11-2017, 03:41 PM
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WW2 Discussion

Carrying on re the Pathfinder Force, Harris strongly resisted the creation of a ‘Corps D’elite’ as he felt it would undermine those aircrews who were not part of it.

He preferred a ‘Raid Leader’ scheme where the best Squadron crews did the target locating and marking. These crews could change dependent upon results on a monthly basis and would have little or no interaction with other designated crews.

The Air Ministry argued that the centralisation of best crews into a homegenous Force was not only critical to ensuring the optimum consistent training and thus results, it was simply the most logical in many respects.
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  #275  
Old 12-11-2017, 03:52 PM
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Aye. I know/knew several Germans who settled here. One was Das Reich.

I’ve been fortunate enough in my interests to be involved/around veteran functions over the years.

Their recollections aren’t always to be relied on though. I spoke to one who said he was in x Regiment, under y officer. When I told him y officer was in charge of z Regiment he looked at me and said ‘Well, now I know’
'Uncle'Otto seemed to have been at just about every great battle on the Eastern Front and said he even heard Paul Hausser's order to disobey Hitler and retreat at Third Kharkov!
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  #276  
Old 12-11-2017, 04:50 PM
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Yes. The USA needed to drop a second bomb to prevent further Russian involvement by forcing a surrender. But, Little Boy and Fat Man were different bomb types and the USA wanted to try both of them, so.would've dropped them all the same imvho.
I agree. It is well documented that all the US top brass told Truman that it was not necessary to drop the bombs to end the war. It is also telling that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were among the very few Japanese cities that escaped the fire bombing campaign, although both were military targets. You cannot test the destructive capabilities of a nuclear weapon if you have already bombed the crap out of a place.

There is enough evidence to support the view that the US did not drop the bombs to end the war, but rather that they had to drop the bombs before the war ended.
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Old 12-11-2017, 04:58 PM
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But the fact is that the Japanese didn't sue for peace until the atomic bombs were dropped
Yes they did.

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so I stand by my original post.
You can stand by what you want but you are still wrong.

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...The American military feared huge casualties from fanatical resistance if they had to invade after what they experienced at Okinawa.
That is the line they want you to believe.
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  #278  
Old 12-11-2017, 05:00 PM
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Can't agree with that I'm afraid.The Russians were already defeating the Japanese in Manchuria and you're not seriously suggesting they were planning to invade the Japanese mainland?
The Russians did not declare war on Japan, or invade Manchuria, until after the Hiroshima bomb and only a mere few hours before the Nagasaki one.
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Old 12-11-2017, 05:28 PM
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Anymore views on our bombing strategy being justified?

Certainly from a civilian casualty/morale point of view, I cannot find evidence that it shortened the War.
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Old 12-11-2017, 05:57 PM
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The thing about the bombing campaign, from a UK perspective, that astonishes me is the reseources it took to conduct. The effects on German war production are difficult to judge, as it is hard to factor in how much (and of what) they could have produced and what they would have done with it if not having to cope with and defend against nightly raids.

The bombing campaign did give us the magnificent Mossie, which I love. There are some audio recordings of our lads on raids which are breathtaking in terms of stiff upper lip-idness, which I shall try and find.

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