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  #10081  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by racehorse-80s View Post
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Looking at the two Pro EU plotters/losers names I can't see them getting much support or very far with their cunning plan .

In an emphatic statement to the Commons, David Davis insisted the Government would crush attempts by pro-Brussels supporters to trigger a Parliamentary vote.

The EU Exit Secretary told MPs: “We will reject any attempt to undo the referendum result, any attempt to hold up the process unduly, or any attempt to keep Britain in the EU by the back door by those who didn’t like the answer they were given on June 23.”

His broadside about the referendum result followed the emergence of a plot backed by former Labour leader Ed Miliband and ex-deputy prime minister Nick Clegg.
Don't you just love the biased colourful language of racehorse and the express.

People concerned about parliamentary democracy are called "plotters" with a "cunning plan".

Other papers haven't been quite so kind to Davis, perhaps they view him as an autocrat with a cunning plan to block parliamentary democracy.
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  #10082  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
I think there is still a distinct possibility of a conservative civil war. Whoever wins will decide the outcome if they win and maintain a majority in parliament.

I appreciate 'the people have spoken' argument but if you take Bromley for instance. Jo Johnson, Bob Neill, and Bob Stewart (lol) are perfectly entitled to represent their constituents and disrupt the process of hard Brexit. Their constituents did not vote for it and it is their duty to represent their constituents in parliament. In the case of Johnson and Neill they also campaigned for remain and could therefore argue they are completely entitled to now campaign for soft brexit and represent the wishes of their constituents.

How many others are there?
Are you serious, they would just bury their own careers.
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  #10083  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
I think there is still a distinct possibility of a conservative civil war. Whoever wins will decide the outcome if they win and maintain a majority in parliament.

I appreciate 'the people have spoken' argument but if you take Bromley for instance. Jo Johnson, Bob Neill, and Bob Stewart (lol) are perfectly entitled to represent their constituents and disrupt the process of hard Brexit. Their constituents did not vote for it and it is their duty to represent their constituents in parliament. In the case of Johnson and Neill they also campaigned for remain and could therefore argue they are completely entitled to now campaign for soft brexit and represent the wishes of their constituents.

How many others are there?
With any luck they'll mutually annihilate each other.

It's a valid point regarding constituency preference, but it swings both ways - plenty of Remain MPs represent leave majority constituencies. This not simply a matter of local representation however, as clearly the ramifications are international. And in any event could Julie Elliot MP, for example, in good conscience vote for a hard Brexit (or indeed any form of Brexit) in the knowledge that anything up to 25% of her constituents will be directly exposed to penury if/when Nissan up sticks in the north east?

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  #10084  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by racehorse-80s View Post
His broadside about the referendum result followed the emergence of a plot backed by former Labour leader Ed Miliband and ex-deputy prime minister Nick Clegg.
Two alpha-males, without doubt ....
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  #10085  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by racehorse-80s View Post
Just booked a holiday in Germany and paid in advance at 114 euro to the pound .
It must be fun inhabiting an alternate reality Racey
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  #10086  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
His point, I suspect, is that you can't vote for Brexit and then let the people that didn't, define it as something other than Brexit.

Perhaps its you that's unsure of democracy.
Remind us what the vote was actually for?

Because it strikes me, that you can't now have a small group of politicians decide what 52% actually voted for or wanted (and ignore 48% of the population at the same time).

I have been told by a fair few Leave voters that I am wrong when saying it was all about immigration for instance.
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  #10087  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:40 AM
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Excuse the silly question but logistically would it be even possible for Parliament to be given a vote on the terms of any agreement?

Most MPs clearly can't be involved in the negotations.
If MPs are asked to vote on negotiating position prior to or during negotations then it risks totally undermining our negotiating position.
If the negotiation team provisionally comes to an agreement then how long will it take to schedule a vote for approval?
How would MPs then be able to influence changes to the provisional agreement? How will this be fedback to the EU negotiatiors?

Article 50 comes with a very tight timescale. Surely if the wider Parliament is involved in any way in any way outside select few MPs / committees / Cabinet Members surely it would become impossible to achieve any compromise with Europe within 2 years.

We couldn't even get a consensus of MPs in that time scale let alone negotiate with a well-prepared team.

Surely this stunt is just a group of people who didn't get their own way trying to come up with novel ways to filibuster the process?
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  #10088  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
...
People concerned about parliamentary democracy are called "plotters" with a "cunning plan"..
And the use of the term 'cunning', alongside that of Clegg and Miliband is rather oxymoronic if nothing else.

So racehorse's current favourite politicians are David Davis and Nigel Farage. Dear God.
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  #10089  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
Are you serious, they would just bury their own careers.
So so far

Stephen Phillips
Ben Howlett
Nicholas Soames
Anna Soubry
Andrew Tyrie
Dominic Grieve.

This was yesterday with apparently a lot more on their side. Remind me - what is the conservative majority? Reckon there are 11 more somewhere?
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  #10090  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebyeeckeagle View Post
Remind us what the vote was actually for?

Because it strikes me, that you can't now have a small group of politicians decide what 52% actually voted for or wanted (and ignore 48% of the population at the same time).

I have been told by a fair few Leave voters that I am wrong when saying it was all about immigration for instance.
The question we were asked at the polling stations was:
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

More than half of all voters suggested they wanted to leave. Whether it was about immigration, sovereignty or some bizarre love for Nige is irrelevant. The only thing we know is that more people said they wanted to leave rather than remain.

Therefore surely the mandate for the government is to ensure that happens above all else. Access to the single market, negotiations about free movement, all the other stuff is not the issue. The only issue is triggering Article 50 and then making the best of it.
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  #10091  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by eddieskyclad View Post
The question we were asked at the polling stations was:
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

More than half of all voters suggested they wanted to leave. Whether it was about immigration, sovereignty or some bizarre love for Nige is irrelevant. The only thing we know is that more people said they wanted to leave rather than remain.

Therefore surely the mandate for the government is to ensure that happens above all else. Access to the single market, negotiations about free movement, all the other stuff is not the issue. The only issue is triggering Article 50 and then making the best of it.
of course all"the other stuff" is exactly the issue as they are interrelated with membership or the withdrawal thereof from the EU.
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  #10092  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by eddieskyclad View Post
Excuse the silly question but logistically would it be even possible for Parliament to be given a vote on the terms of any agreement?
...?
Well, if it too tricky and time consuming, let's not bother with Parliament scrutinising anything in future.

This taking back control, is essentially what? Giving it to a small cadre of negotiators and politicians who decide the future of what Brexit is? For the entire country.
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  #10093  
Old 11-10-2016, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by eddieskyclad View Post

Surely this stunt is just a group of people who didn't get their own way trying to come up with novel ways to filibuster the process?
Like Stephen Phillips you mean?

Last edited by Hpalace; 11-10-2016 at 09:46 PM.
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  #10094  
Old 11-10-2016, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by eddieskyclad View Post
...The only issue is triggering Article 50 and then making the best of it.
That is not a single issue really, is it?

Give notice. Fine. . That was the mandate given by the vote. That isn't the debate

Making the best of it, is the whole issue, and wasn't covered by the vote. That is what Parliament must be allowed to decide on - and I suspect will happen.

May is floundering. Though I am unsure who would be able to do it better - let's face it, there was no plan.
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  #10095  
Old 11-10-2016, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
So so far

Stephen Phillips
Ben Howlett
Nicholas Soames
Anna Soubry
Andrew Tyrie
Dominic Grieve.

This was yesterday with apparently a lot more on their side. Remind me - what is the conservative majority? Reckon there are 11 more somewhere?
The first being a staunch Leaver. Which should speak to those claiming that it's a Remain conspiracy.
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  #10096  
Old 11-10-2016, 11:18 AM
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Even if 90% of the Leave vote was anti immigration and therefore an end to free movement, that other 10% of Leavers added to the Remainers would mean a majority in favour of free movement.

Only if the UK accepts free movement can it hope to get compromise on other issues and be able to limit the economic damage.

It's all to play for, despite the Tories' attempts to limit debate within the hard Brexit anti immigration UKIP camp.
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  #10097  
Old 11-10-2016, 11:19 AM
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I voted Labour and they lost and now the Tories get to call the shots and millions of remainers who voted Tory are whinging about their hard brexit plans , WOW and I was told if Labour won by these same folks it would mean economic disaster , Ha fecking ha to you knobs who fell for that rubbish and enabled a severely right-wing UK Tory party to gain power .
You mugs reaped what you sowed big-time .
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  #10098  
Old 11-10-2016, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddieskyclad View Post
The question we were asked at the polling stations was:
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

More than half of all voters suggested they wanted to leave. Whether it was about immigration, sovereignty or some bizarre love for Nige is irrelevant. The only thing we know is that more people said they wanted to leave rather than remain.

Therefore surely the mandate for the government is to ensure that happens above all else. Access to the single market, negotiations about free movement, all the other stuff is not the issue. The only issue is triggering Article 50 and then making the best of it.
Well yes, exactly. This seems to me to be more fundamental misunderstanding of what the EU actually is.

Q: Is Norway a member of the EU?
A: No

Q: Is Norway a member of the single market?
A: Yes

Thus membership of the EU, as per the ballot paper, is not the same thing as membership of the of the single market. Voting to Leave the EU does not automatically mean leaving the single market. Anyone who claims otherwise, like IDS did at the weekend for example, is either an idiot or a liar.

Last edited by tasty_snacks; 11-10-2016 at 11:24 AM.
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  #10099  
Old 11-10-2016, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by eddieskyclad View Post
The question we were asked at the polling stations was:
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

More than half of all voters suggested they wanted to leave. Whether it was about immigration, sovereignty or some bizarre love for Nige is irrelevant. The only thing we know is that more people said they wanted to leave rather than remain.

Therefore surely the mandate for the government is to ensure that happens above all else. Access to the single market, negotiations about free movement, all the other stuff is not the issue. The only issue is triggering Article 50 and then making the best of it.
I'm calling Guinness for a new World record for the most number of idiots in a state of misunderstanding for the longest period.

So far it's getting on for 6 months for about 18 million.
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  #10100  
Old 11-10-2016, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by racehorse-80s View Post
I voted Labour and they lost and now the Tories get to call the shots and millions of remainers who voted Tory are whinging about their hard brexit plans , WOW and I was told if Labour won by these same folks it would mean economic disaster , Ha fecking ha to you knobs who fell for that rubbish and enabled a severely right-wing UK Tory party to gain power .
You mugs reaped what you sowed big-time .
It's fair game to point out that irony.

I think it's also fair game to point out that in a general election, five years down the line you get another go.
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