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Indeed one of the totally and utterly undemocratic things about the referendum was that EU citizens living in the UK couldn't vote. If they could Remain would have almost certainly won. Yet Aussies over here for a year could vote. |
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Exactly.
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You are now going on to some vague stuff about sovereign countries. You originally suggested people moving around and large populations could affect wages and unemployment and rents. Where is the evidence for this in the USA or China? |
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Do you think after leaving the EU that citizens from EU countries should have priority over relatives from countries such as Jamaica, Australia and India?
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And as I've pointed out all local government funding by 2020 will be raised locally. So by your strange way of stating who has right to move around or not, we would all be told to stay in our local borough or county. |
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We should then look at expanding that with FOM agreements with other countries. |
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In the case of the EU there was little complaint (as far as I can recall) about FOM when it was just the original states. These complaints started when the East European nations joined as all of a sudden another more extreme factor was thrown into the mix. Rightly or wrongly the perception was that a 25 year old Polish carpenter could treble his wages by moving to the UK and still undercut the 25 year old UK born carpenter. For me given further investment in the EU over time these extreme balances would have become less exaggerated. Unfortunately the majority did not agree with me. I for one have to constantly compete with people massively undercutting the services I offer. FOM or no FOM this will continue to be the case. I can live with this but I can also kind of understand why others have had enough and were not prepared to give it more time. If for instance we had FOM with Malawi it would not work unless serious investment went into Malawi and wages began to get close/equal to those in the UK. |
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Also people go from Alaska and Hawaii and Puerto Rico to the mainland USA. I think the variation in rates and inequality could well be larger from state to state in the USA than country to country in the EU. I think it's just as much rubbish that 25 year old plumber from Poland undercuts wages, than a 25 plumber from a poor US state going to a rich US state. Or a poor area of China to a rich area of China. The thing that will stop companies screwing over workers are strong unions and workers rights. This could have been achieved in a far better way in a global economy across Europe than in one country. Last edited by cockneyrebel; 23-01-2017 at 04:37 PM. |
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Ireland is a good example. For years and years there has been emigration from Ireland to the UK with very little recipricol emigration from the UK to Ireland. The Irish used to come over, share a house with multiple occupancy, live off cheap food and undercut the UK worker. This was met with resentment and racism. The UK worker felt that the Irish worker was able to convert their pounds to punts and send the money home to their family. The converted punts were worth more in Ireland and gave his family in Ireland a better way of life than they would have had if daddy had stayed at home. Now the Welsh carpenter still has to pay UK taxes, feed his family and pay his rent with pounds. He can undercut but not to the same extreme. Remember "Irish need not apply"? It was protectionism. The key to the EU project IMOP was time. Bring the other countries up and the workers will not come en-masse as the push/pull factors would decrease. Over time those countries become wealthier and they buy your goods/services. Everyone wins. The UK (England) traditionally does not respond well to mass immigration. It was really fecking stupid to open the doors and not follow the route of the other original states which gives more TIME for the other states to catch up economically a bit lessening push/pull. Economically sound but politically stupid given history. |
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I still maintain, and I think the evidence backs it, that people moving around is not what affects wages or unemployment. Otherwise the USA and China would be screwed. I'm sure that people from Hawaii and Puerto Rico send money back to Hawaii and Puerto Rico, or people in New York can send money back to Ohio. I think nationalism and patriotism are a total mugs game that just benefit the rich. The UK will be far worse off place and far worse off economically by pulling up the drawbridge. |
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I meant London. But yeah I may have inadvertently had a point. London should become a city state and stick up borders. Then we'd see how the rest of the UK got on without "that London".
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I agree. Someone working in London and sending money back to Stoke will leave their family better off. Someone working in New York and sending their money back to Ohio will be better off. However someone working in London and sending their money back to Riga will be considerably better off and someone working in New York and sending their money back to Haiti will be considerably better off. I have some friends that decided to go and teach in Riga for two years. In just two years they were able to save a 10% deposit for a house in the South East. International teaching pays roughly the same but it is one of the very few exceptions and has high barriers of entry. Their cost of living was one fifth of what it cost to live in the UK. I agree the UK will be worse off economically. Patriotism is not a mug's game however nationalism is. If we ever go to war again in a serious way patriotism will come in very useful. |
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I think that someone sending money from New York to Puerto Rico would be considerably better off. Fundamentally unions and good workers rights get people good wages and good employment, stopping migrants won't. Any more than banning women coming in to the workplace would or have a one child birth control policy would. We will have to disagree about patriotism and agree about nationalism |
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